![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by johnj on October 26, 2003, at 21:57:50
Lar,
How are you? Seems there was some sort of a ruckus. It would be a gigantic loss without you to field questions. I know it probably gets old for you at times, but I appreciate your contribution greatly.
You mentioned sleep for you has been disturbed. Getting it worked out any? I mentioned to you I lost a mouth guard 4 weeks ago and got a new type called a NIT that fits over my front teeth. Been using it a almost a week and I have head tension like I had on 30 mg of remeron. I find it hard to believe that at 15 mg of remeron this side effect would reappear. It is either the mouth guard/sleep disturbance or side effects. I do still try to grind my teeth. I visit a sleep doctor tomorrow and hopefully he can help. I find it odd that a normal mouth guard that fits over my top teeth would be better than this new one??? Unless it help be breath or something. I am getting frustrated again. I want my sound sleep.....take care my friend.
johnj
Posted by JLx on October 30, 2003, at 9:21:28
In reply to Hello Larry , posted by johnj on October 26, 2003, at 21:57:50
Hi, John J. I'm not Larry, but I'll say hello back to you. :)I remember you from the magnesium thread last spring and have wondered how you're doing. Did you see the naturopath or some other doctor as you were planning?
I recall you felt good on magnesium for 2 weeks and then sank down again. And had trouble sleeping, right? I see George Eby has more comments on his page about insomnia, you might find them interesting: http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#sleep
I got pretty depressed this summer after feeling good for two months -- some hormonal changes among other factors. Now I am taking tyrosine and other things (as well as magnesium still) and feeling pretty good -- though still tweaking my regimen all the time.
I ran across something recently, and thought of you. I don't know if this guy knows what he's talking about, or anything about this diagnostic testing he's apparently referring to, but he sounds to me as if he makes sense in general, so perhaps he's right about this calcium/benzo connection too:
"Depression can be related to high and low levels of calcium and/or magnesium also, with low levels
being oftentimes associated with anxieties as well. After comparing the backgrounds of patients who required very high doses (4,000+mg) of calcium a day - just to barely reach normal levels, it turned out that a very large percentage had a history of benzodiazepine (tranquilizers / sedatives) use.
These drugs either affected their body's ability to utilize calcium and/or magnesium properly, or those minerals levels in these patients had already been extremely deficient before taking any medications, provoking insomnia, anxieties, or other symptoms, and resulting in drugs (benzodiazepines) being prescribed instead of having the real cause (mineral deficiencies) corrected."I think something interesting and important was going on there when you responded so positively to magnesium supplementation, suggesting that something was "righted", so then perhaps that created something else getting out of whack. I think this is what happened to me -- magnesium seems to have changed my body profoundly, sort of creating me with a new baseline, so to speak, so that now when I try other things it's different than when I've tried them in the past. Finding the optimal calcium magnesium balance seems especially tricky.
I'm limited to experimentation by my finances, but finding a doc who would test for all these things and then know what to do with the results would be the better way to go I'm sure.
> Lar,
>
> How are you? Seems there was some sort of a ruckus. It would be a gigantic loss without you to field questions. I know it probably gets old for you at times, but I appreciate your contribution greatly.
>
> You mentioned sleep for you has been disturbed. Getting it worked out any? I mentioned to you I lost a mouth guard 4 weeks ago and got a new type called a NIT that fits over my front teeth. Been using it a almost a week and I have head tension like I had on 30 mg of remeron. I find it hard to believe that at 15 mg of remeron this side effect would reappear. It is either the mouth guard/sleep disturbance or side effects. I do still try to grind my teeth. I visit a sleep doctor tomorrow and hopefully he can help. I find it odd that a normal mouth guard that fits over my top teeth would be better than this new one??? Unless it help be breath or something. I am getting frustrated again. I want my sound sleep.....take care my friend.
>
> johnj
Posted by johnj on October 30, 2003, at 17:41:16
In reply to Re: Hello Larry » johnj, posted by JLx on October 30, 2003, at 9:21:28
Hi JLx:
I remember you too and want to thank you for your kind reply and sharing what you have found.
To answer your first question I did not see the alternative medicine clinic at the local university yet, but have found some interesting things since we last exchanged information.
As you remembered I had a robust response to the mangesium the first 10 days and then my sleep became shortened and I started to have lots of anxiety. I had a similiar response to fish oil too. But, I was recently given another clue to my problem. I had terrible insomnia in the spring and was just barely able to function at work. Some was stress, but I have never been that easily stressed.
I broke down and took some old remeron to get some sleep. I went from my old dose of 30 to 15 and things were pretty good. I was even sleeping more sound and felt more drugged after two months. Almost as if I didn't need the benzo's and AD's. Have you ever had that feeling like you were doing so well that the meds seemed unneccesary?
Well....I started falling back again and was at a total loss until I went to see my dentist. Not too long after starting the remeron again I started using an old mouth guard since I grind my teeth. The dentist noticed I was griding my teeth and causing damage and....I had lost the mouth guard about a month before i went to the dentist(that is when I started to go downhill). I was going to a pulmonogist due to a cough that would not go away and it just so happens he is a sleep specialist at the sleep clinic too. He checked me out and then noticed my jaw and teeth grinding. He asked me a lot of questions and then asked me if I would do a sleep study since he thinks I might have sleep apnea. I am guessing that the mouth guard I was using was limiting my tongue movement and thus letting air in better and thus allowing my brain to heal(totally a hypothesis at the moment).But, it does make sense. Two years ago when I started to relapse it was due to insomnia. I didn't feel anxious or depressed at the time just wasn't refreshed in the morning. I became more anxious when I wasn't sleeping and began a two year vicious cycle. I can't do the study until December so I have to gut it out. I have a new mouth guard, but it only covers my two front teeth so it allows my tongue to move freely, and I haven't been getting good sleep.
I really hope we have stumbled upon something here. This may also explain my problem with excercising. I can't or it really messes up my sleep no matter what time of day I do it. This would create more demand on my body and thus make my sleep worse.
That is my story to date.......I don't want to hope too much it is a breathing problem, but that mouth guard was helping me, that I am sure of. I just need to hang on. Any comments?
My wife is going through hormonal changes and they are rough. I have never had ups and downs like the last two years and it all depends on how I sleep.Hope things are going well for you and the magnesium holds. It is good to try new things. Larry gave me great advice and that was to add things one at a time so you can gauge how it works. What are you trying?
Take care and lets keep in touch. :)
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2003, at 7:59:06
In reply to Hello Larry , posted by johnj on October 26, 2003, at 21:57:50
> Lar,
>
> How are you?Fragile, thanks for asking.
> Seems there was some sort of a ruckus.
Ongoing. I'm about to enter into stage 2 (stage 3 in the offing).
> It would be a gigantic loss without you to field questions. I know it probably gets old for you at times, but I appreciate your contribution greatly.
I'm glad to do this stuff. I really hate the other.
> You mentioned sleep for you has been disturbed. Getting it worked out any?
No. That's why I'm fragile. I've learned how to self-assess with some accuracy, and I'm near the edge of the cliff.
> I mentioned to you I lost a mouth guard 4 weeks ago and got a new type called a NIT that fits over my front teeth. Been using it a almost a week and I have head tension like I had on 30 mg of remeron.
Doesn't sound like it fits right.
> I find it hard to believe that at 15 mg of remeron this side effect would reappear. It is either the mouth guard/sleep disturbance or side effects.
New mouth guard, and new effect......I'd look at the mouth guard.
> I do still try to grind my teeth.
Uhhh, "try (not) to"? This helps me. During the day, I consciously relas my jaw. I accomplish this by slightly extending my tongue between my teeth. This encourages a new relaxed jaw position, which actually reduces bruxing. I got the idea from a dental research journal.
> I visit a sleep doctor tomorrow and hopefully he can help. I find it odd that a normal mouth guard that fits over my top teeth would be better than this new one??? Unless it help be breath or something. I am getting frustrated again. I want my sound sleep.....take care my friend.
I hope you find something that works. Take care, dude.
Lar
Posted by JLx on November 2, 2003, at 10:09:08
In reply to Re: Hello Larry, posted by johnj on October 30, 2003, at 17:41:16
> As you remembered I had a robust response to the mangesium the first 10 days and then my sleep became shortened and I started to have lots of anxiety. I had a similiar response to fish oil too.I was just reading recently on the Alternative Mental Health site something by Dr. Walsh of the Pfeiffer Clinic, http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walshMP.htm#Ob:
"Omega 3s can worsen mental symptoms in bipolar or schizophrenic patients.... if they have a pyrrole disorder. This phenotype is dramatically short of arachidonic acid & giving omega 3 oils aggravates the situation since omega 3 and omega 6 EFA's are in competition for delta 5,6 desaturases. We use red blood cell membrane analysis for EFA's
if we suspect this problem.Pyroluric mental patients will usually get worse if given fish oils, DHA, EPA, etc. They thrive on Primrose Oil, a good source of AA and other omega 6s. (June 23, 2003)"
If you are pyroluric, perhaps that's why fish oil didn't work well.
> Have you ever had that feeling like you were doing so well that the meds seemed unneccesary?
Yes, and I quit them. :) (Though I realize that's not the best response for everyone.)
> But, it does make sense. Two years ago when I started to relapse it was due to insomnia. I didn't feel anxious or depressed at the time just wasn't refreshed in the morning. I became more anxious when I wasn't sleeping and began a two year vicious cycle. I can't do the study until December so I have to gut it out. I have a new mouth guard, but it only covers my two front teeth so it allows my tongue to move freely, and I haven't been getting good sleep.Insomnia is the pits. :( I've been having a bit of it myself though I slept better last night after taking a small amount of melatonin and 50 mg of 5-HTP.
> I really hope we have stumbled upon something here. This may also explain my problem with excercising. I can't or it really messes up my sleep no matter what time of day I do it. This would create more demand on my body and thus make my sleep worse.
Tealady just posted something interesting about the connection to methylcobalamin, a coenzyme form of vitamin B12, and the circadian rhythms. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/275599.html
Incidentally, when I was on Prozac I didn't have a prayer of sleeping much, and Zoloft was only slightly better.
> That is my story to date.......I don't want to hope too much it is a breathing problem, but that mouth guard was helping me, that I am sure of. I just need to hang on. Any comments?
I'm not sure why you can't use the old mouthguard again to see if that's the solution?
> My wife is going through hormonal changes and they are rough. I have never had ups and downs like the last two years and it all depends on how I sleep.
The frustrating thing at this time of my life is that I don't know WHAT my hormones might be up to. ;) At least when I was younger the monthly up and downs were fairly predictable.
> Hope things are going well for you and the magnesium holds. It is good to try new things. Larry gave me great advice and that was to add things one at a time so you can gauge how it works. What are you trying?Magnesium wasn't the complete answer for me after those two months, but it for sure prevents suicide ideation/feelings even when I am otherwise quite depressed, so that is a very good thing. And it also seems to have changed my "baseline" for things, so I am trying some things that I've tried before and having different, better effects. Right now I am experimenting with the amino acids, tyrosine mainly, but also phenylalanine too, taken with Vit. C and coenzyme B6 (P-5-P). Also the methyl-form of B12 is new for me and I notice a small boost when I take it. I'm taking 9 grams of fish oil per day too, not sure if that is doing anything or not. I'm trying to cover as many bases as I can without taking things that are contradictory, as my life is an absolute mess and I really need to get my you-know-what together and change things. So far, so good, though I've had some ups and downs.
I hope you have good luck with the sleep clinic. I've always wanted to learn the secrets of my own sleep patterns. :)
JL
Posted by joebob on November 3, 2003, at 2:25:44
In reply to Re: Hello Larry » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2003, at 7:59:06
works wonders for me when nothing else did
sometimes a valium to get me wound down first
the traz works in an hour or so
valium as you know is quick
hang in there, we need you
best,
joebob
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 3, 2003, at 14:37:26
In reply to have you tried trazadone for sleep? » Larry Hoover, posted by joebob on November 3, 2003, at 2:25:44
> works wonders for me when nothing else did
>
> sometimes a valium to get me wound down first
>
> the traz works in an hour or so
>
> valium as you know is quick
>
> hang in there, we need you
>
> best,
>
> joebobThanks, jb, I've got some in the medicine cabinet. I've been on it a number of times, but the hangover effect is really strong. I'm not *that* desperate, yet. Close, though.
Lar
Posted by Snowie on November 4, 2003, at 20:41:16
In reply to Re: have you tried trazadone for sleep? » joebob, posted by Larry Hoover on November 3, 2003, at 14:37:26
Since this is the "alternative" Board, what helps me sleep better than almost anything is sustained release melatonin. I get it at my local health food store. For natural sleep, nothing works better for me. You might want to give it a try.
Snowie
Posted by joebob on November 6, 2003, at 9:57:04
In reply to Re: have you tried trazadone for sleep? » joebob, posted by Larry Hoover on November 3, 2003, at 14:37:26
in the beggining i used 50mgs, which worked fine, but as my stress levels continued to rise, i went to 100 and stayed there.......1 hr before sleep
welcome back
joebob
> > works wonders for me when nothing else did
> >
> > sometimes a valium to get me wound down first
> >
> > the traz works in an hour or so
> >
> > valium as you know is quick
> >
> > hang in there, we need you
> >
> > best,
> >
> > joebob
>
> Thanks, jb, I've got some in the medicine cabinet. I've been on it a number of times, but the hangover effect is really strong. I'm not *that* desperate, yet. Close, though.
>
> Lar
>
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.