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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by taylor18 on November 9, 2003, at 0:45:08
http://www.the7thfire.com/bipolar.htm
Mary has a husband with a bi-polar/manic depression condition. He had been unable to work for three years. Not only was he moody, grouchy, and always yelling at everyone, but he did not have enough energy to do small chores around the house.
Mary talked to me and asked for help. She said that if things did not change for the better, she was going to get a divorce and take the children and resettle somewhere else.
I told her about Pycnogenol® and how it had helped other people with similar symptoms. She decided to put her husband on the product since she had nothing to lose. Two months later, I met with her and she told me what had happened to her husband. He had been taking the product for five weeks when she was in the kitchen and heard the children laughing while her husband chased them up the stairs. She ran into the hall and asked her husband if he realized he was running up the stairs. He was stunned. He said he was just doing what seemed natural. Three weeks after that, he was feeling normal and started working in his construction company again. She said her family life was normal again and she no longer considered divorce an option.
Dr. Lamar Rosquist, DC
This testimonial is not very detailed. I think OPCs/Flavay might actually be harmful to MD's. I've read that it actually increases norephinephrine and dopamine by inhibiting their breakdown through interactions with nitric oxide synthase. However, I've also read that they modulate nitric oxide. Anecdotal reports yield results worthy of further investigation for it's use in manic depression: mental clarity, focus, calming properties, concentration etc.
Posted by taylor18 on November 9, 2003, at 0:51:58
In reply to OPCs/Flavay for manic depression?, posted by taylor18 on November 9, 2003, at 0:45:08
I just read this:
"Increased dopamine levels in the prefrontal cortex have been correlated with mania."
I believe Flavay increases dopamine in the prefrontal cortex.
Posted by tealady on November 9, 2003, at 7:18:57
In reply to OPCs/Flavay for manic depression?, posted by taylor18 on November 9, 2003, at 0:45:08
>. I've read that it actually increases norephinephrine and dopamine by inhibiting their breakdown through interactions with nitric oxide synthase.
Hi, do you recall where you read that?
Thanks, Jan
Posted by taylor18 on November 10, 2003, at 2:22:10
In reply to Re: OPCs/Flavay for manic depression? » taylor18, posted by tealady on November 9, 2003, at 7:18:57
Somewhere in the promotional literature. It also makes sense due to its effectiveness in ADHD. However, it may be a powerful regulator.
Here are some quotes I found from a few quick searches:
"...They also reportedly affect the metabolic enzymes that regulate neurotransmitters, and they appear to inhibit the breakdown of norepinephrine and dopamine. Some recent studies have shown that ADD is associated with a faster than average reuptake (breakdown) of dopamine, so perhaps this is the most important factor in how OPCs help..."
"...The good news is that Flavay is great at neutralizing peroxynitrate. It also reduces the amount of superoxide available that makes peroxynitrate and it helps to regulate the nitric oxide production so that it stays in balance. That means your immune system works better, your joints hurt less, and your blood flows better, all because of Flavay... Other antioxidants may help, but presently researchers have only noticed OPCs working on this problem..."
"...The increase in NITRIC OXIDE may also improve learning ability and memory through its effects as a neurotransmitter. Early evidence suggests that OPCs are effective in Attention Deficit Disorders (ADD). These positive results are due to the effects of increased neurotransmitter lifespan, NO production, and improved brain micro-circulation..."
"...OPCs stimulate NITRIC OXIDE production in the arteries - an essential process needed for healthy male penile erection. The drug VIAGRA works in the same way through increasing nitric oxide..."
"It's effect on nitric oxide radicals, in particular, have attracted scientific interest.
Nitric oxide is a molecule essential for some cellular and physiological functions but dangerous in large amounts. For example, it plays important roles in the cardiovascular, nervous and immune systems, yet excessive nitric oxide can also promote inflammations, rheumatoid arthritis and Alzheimer's disease. It is important that nitric oxide is maintained in a balance in the body...not to much and not too little.
Pycnogenol has the benefit of regulating and, at times, inhibiting nitric oxide production. It can down-regulate the body's key nitric oxide-activating enzyme and nitric oxide-dependent genes. Pycnogenol also appears to have particular benefits in reducing inflammation caused by excessive nitric oxide radicals released by white blood cells.
Pycnogenol's role as a nitric oxide regulator was borne out by research in Tampa Florida. Pycnogenol increased nitric oxide levels in the endothelial cells that line the heart and blood vessel walls, thus permitting optimal vasodilation of blood vessels. In experiments on rats' blood vessels, the stress hormone adrenaline was used to constrict blood vessels, mimicking what occurs in heart disease. After adding Pycnogenol, nitric oxide levels increased and the blood vessels dilated, a sign of normal blood-vessel function. These experiements may appear to contradict each other, but instead they point to the complex and subtle ways antioxidants function in different types of cells..."
The most bioavailable form looks to be from Enzymatic Therapy, unfortunately, it's just Grape Seed Extract without the Pine Bark, like Flavay.
http://www.enzy.com/products/display.asp?id=322&cpmid=354
It's bound to fat-soluble phosphatidylcholine molecules, so it's 3-7 more absorbable.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 6:59:02
In reply to Re: OPCs/Flavay for manic depression?, posted by taylor18 on November 10, 2003, at 2:22:10
> Somewhere in the promotional literature.
Get your critical information from Pubmed, okay?
E.g.
> "...The good news is that Flavay is great at neutralizing peroxynitrate.The chemical in question is peroxynitrite.
> It also reduces the amount of superoxide available that makes peroxynitrate
You'd be far better served by ensuring that your SOD (super-oxide dismutase) enzyme level is adequate. Zinc and selenium supps.
> and it helps to regulate the nitric oxide production so that it stays in balance.
Semantic frippery.
> That means your immune system works better, your joints hurt less, and your blood flows better, all because of Flavay... Other antioxidants may help, but presently researchers have only noticed OPCs working on this problem..."
Before I took a supplement for its exogenous effects, I'd take the endogenous ones. Vitamin E, C, selenium and alphalipoic acid. That's not to say that OPCs are not of benefit, but the concluding statement is unsupported hyperbole.
There is no doubt that oligomeric proanthocyanidin complexes have physiological effects. There is, as yet, no good evidence for the claims made here.
> "...The increase in NITRIC OXIDE may also improve learning ability and memory through its effects as a neurotransmitter. Early evidence suggests that OPCs are effective in Attention Deficit Disorders (ADD).
Anecdotal reports, with no systematic study yet published.
> These positive results are due to the effects of increased neurotransmitter lifespan, NO production, and improved brain micro-circulation..."
Pure supposition.
There is some discussion of the subject in this thread.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030818/msgs/253236.html
Lar
Posted by taylor18 on November 10, 2003, at 16:45:05
In reply to Re: OPCs/Flavay for manic depression? » taylor18, posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 6:59:02
Larry, your tone is clearly hostile. I wonder if I've somehow offended you? You seem to be only pointing out the negative.
However, taking advantage of your very helpful advice about PubMed, I've found a study that might be helpful in realizing the real extent of your problem.
"...Consistent with a mediation model, results of path analyses indicated that optimism and pessimism (particularly the former) had significant direct and indirect links (by means of positive and negative affectivity) with depressive symptoms and life satisfaction..."
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 17:22:55
In reply to Re: OPCs/Flavay for manic depression?, posted by taylor18 on November 10, 2003, at 16:45:05
> Larry, your tone is clearly hostile.
No, it's critical.
> I wonder if I've somehow offended you?
No. But the conclusion of your latter message (snipped) is promoting a trend.... Ad hominem remarks are not welcome.
> You seem to be only pointing out the negative.
I'm countering unsubstantiated claims made by vendors. I'm a scientist. My job, for many years, was to critically assess the published work of other scientists. Please do not confuse criticism of ideas with criticism of self.
Posted by taylor18 on November 10, 2003, at 17:24:44
In reply to Re: OPCs/Flavay for manic depression? » taylor18, posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 6:59:02
In my defense, you're attacking the quotes I gleaned from about 5 minutes of searching at Google.
However, this caught me:
> and it helps to regulate the nitric oxide production so that it stays in balance.Semantic frippery.
In response:
"...The high intake of polyphenols is thought to contribute to the beneficial cardiovascular effects of plant-centered diets. A putative mechanism underlying the cardioprotective activity is thought to be a plant phenol-induced increase of nitric oxide formation by the constitutive endothelial nitric oxide synthase. Twenty-eight phenols of different classes commonly occurring in plant foods were examined for their capability of enhancing the endothelial nitric oxide release of isolated porcine coronary arteries by direct real-time measurement of the luminal surface nitric oxide concentration with an amperometric microsensor. Additionally, the relaxing activity of the phenols was measured on porcine coronary rings. Quercetin, myricetin, leucocyanidol, and oligomeric proanthocyanidins induced the highest increases in nitric oxide release (delta[NO] > 8.5 nM )..."
"...Phenolic compounds at the range of 16-500 microM that inhibited NO production by > 50% without showing cytotoxicity were the flavonols quercetin and myricetin, the isoflavone daidzein, and the anthocyanins/anthocyanidins pelargonidin, cyanidin, delphinidin, peonidin, malvidin, malvidin 3-glucoside, and malvidin 3,5-diglucosides. Anthocyanins had strong inhibitory effects on NO production. Anthocyanin-rich crude extracts and concentrates of selected berries were also assayed, and their inhibitory effects on NO production were significantly correlated with total phenolic and anthocyanin contents. This is the first study to report the inhibitory effects of anthocyanins and berry phenolic compounds on NO production..."
More studies investigating the role of polyphenols in NO regulation:
Polyphenols:
Polyphenols are a broad family of naturally-occurring physiologically-active nutrients. They can be divided into four subgroups. The first group is called bioflavonoids. The next two groups are close cousins of bioflavonoids and are called anthocyanins and proanthocyanidins (OPCs). These are found primarily in the berry nectars. The last group is called xanthones. They are primarily found in Gentain and Chinese skullcap nectars.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 17:42:16
In reply to Re: OPCs/Flavay for manic depression?, posted by taylor18 on November 10, 2003, at 17:24:44
> In my defense, you're attacking the quotes I gleaned from about 5 minutes of searching at Google.
You're taking my comments personally. It's the quotes I was addressing.
Aside: I did suggest that you obtain your information from Pubmed. And five minutes on Google is not a very thorough investigation, IMHO.
> However, this caught me:
> > and it helps to regulate the nitric oxide production so that it stays in balance.
>
> Semantic frippery.
>
> In response:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12409979&dopt=AbstractThe frippery comment referred to the idea that somehow nitric oxide synthesis was brought into balance by these exogenous compounds. What, they know when to stop having chemical reactions? They know when you've got enough or too little NO? I have no doubt OPCs and other polyphenols have effects on NOS. That is not in dispute. The idea that they promote balance is frippery, in my not so humble opinion.
I'm sorry if you found my criticisms to arrive "at your doorstep" unexpected, but I have many times criticized vendor sites. Most often I denounce the hyperbole and exaggeration and misinformation, but in some cases, I confirm the presented information. More often the former than the latter, to be perfectly clear.
Lar
Posted by taylor18 on November 10, 2003, at 18:30:28
In reply to Re: OPCs/Flavay for manic depression? » taylor18, posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 17:42:16
Yes, we should try to be as objective as possible when investigating new theories, however, that said, we should also be open-minded, not solely critical. I agree that promotional literature is by it's nature one-sided, sometimes exaggerated, and often times, misleading.
However, that being said, a Flavay distributor article cites 150 references:
http://www.naturesprotector.com/brain.htmlThe claim in question cites 2 references, unfortunately in books, one by Lester Packer:
"Research demonstrates Flavay’s™ ability to help regulate nitric oxide—which modulates communication between brain cells and is thereby deeply involved in concentration, learning and memory." (2, 95)
2. Lombard, J., (board certified neurologist), Germano, C. The Brain Wellness Plan - Breakthrough Medical, Nutritional and Immune-Boosting Therapies to Prevent and Treat Depression, Alzheimer's Disease, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Attention Deficit Disorder, Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson's Disease, Lou Gehrig's Disease. Kensington Pub. Corp., 1998.
95. Packer, L., et al. The antioxidant miracle: your complete plan. John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 1999.
Sorry for the ad hominem, it seems it just diverts attention from important issues.
The subject of the post seems to have been forgotten:
I've uncovered 3 anecdotal reports all saying that MD's have found benefit with OPC's. I'm trying to either uncover more anecdotal reports and/or develop a theory of how OPCs benefit MD's.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 11, 2003, at 8:20:28
In reply to Re: OPCs/Flavay for manic depression?, posted by taylor18 on November 10, 2003, at 18:30:28
> Yes, we should try to be as objective as possible when investigating new theories, however, that said, we should also be open-minded, not solely critical.
Critical, the way I use it, is objective. The meaning I use is "characterized by careful analysis". That meaning arises directly from the Greek, krites, a judge. The derivative form, criterion, means "any established law, rule, principle, or fact, by which a correct judgment may be formed."
Lar
Posted by joebob on November 11, 2003, at 9:24:31
In reply to Re: OPCs/Flavay for manic depression? » taylor18, posted by Larry Hoover on November 11, 2003, at 8:20:28
remarks hostile in any way
try some more magnesium and niacinimide per some of his former postings
breathe a little deeper........
he's trying to help us think more clearly
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2003, at 10:24:44
In reply to i read this entire thread and do not find lars » Larry Hoover, posted by joebob on November 11, 2003, at 9:24:31
Posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 13:48:04
In reply to Re: OPCs/Flavay for manic depression?, posted by taylor18 on November 10, 2003, at 18:30:28
I am still taking OPCs as part of my regimen, though I never noticed any mental effects from taking it absent amino acids or TMG/Mg.
For what it is worth I will relate this annecdote though. The past couple weeks I have noticed an improvement in skin tone; particularly over my hands and face.
I got carded buying alcohol last night. That hasn't happened in some time. So I don't think I am imagining that I look younger than I did until recently. Some if it is undoubtedly weight loss related though.
I do not know where to pin the "blame", but the OPCs seem a likely suspect given it is claimed to have vascular and connective tissue effects. Then again, it might be the vitamins instead.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 16, 2003, at 6:21:10
In reply to Re: let's get back to OPCs, thanks (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2003, at 10:24:44
> let's get back to OPCs, thanks
I'd like follow-ups regarding word choice to be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20031113/msgs/280213.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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