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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 1980Monroe on June 27, 2004, at 17:11:07
I heard that it does something with dopamine, and causes alertness. But can it substitute a psychostimuant.
I've tooken it before and really didnt notice a diffrence, i took about 20mg under the tongue brand. Does higher doses have to be used to achieve a psychostimulant property?
Please can some one post me back.
Posted by chemist on June 29, 2004, at 3:08:59
In reply to NADH a psychostimulant?, posted by 1980Monroe on June 27, 2004, at 17:11:07
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2004, at 10:36:23
In reply to NADH a psychostimulant?, posted by 1980Monroe on June 27, 2004, at 17:11:07
> I heard that it does something with dopamine, and causes alertness. But can it substitute a psychostimuant.
>
> I've tooken it before and really didnt notice a diffrence, i took about 20mg under the tongue brand. Does higher doses have to be used to achieve a psychostimulant property?
>
> Please can some one post me back.Sorry for the delay. I hope you're still watching for an answer.
NADH is a key part of the mitochondrial energy production system. Mitochondria are the power plants of all cells. Without their wizardry, the whole cell grinds to a halt.
Mitochondrial dysfunction has been demonstrated in certain disease states, e.g chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, and is likely to be found in at least some depressed subjects. So, whether it has a profound effect or not is probably dependent upon gross measures of mitochondrial function.
I have to resort to anecdote to explain specifics. In my experience, and in that of a "lost" poster, Ron Hill (I miss you, Ron), it takes some time for the NADH effect to build. I liken it to filling up a well. Both Ron and I found that 10 mg/day was needed initially, and that over time the effect seemed to increase. Then, and quite dramatically/suddenly, we both found that 10 mg/day was too much (as if the well filled up, and started to overflow). Thereafter, 5 mg/week was sufficient to maintain the effect. We both found that trimethylglycine (TMG) had a synergistic effect, making the NADH stimulation more pleasant.
Lar
Posted by Ktemene on July 3, 2004, at 14:20:53
In reply to Re: NADH a psychostimulant? » 1980Monroe, posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2004, at 10:36:23
Hi Lar,
You and Ron Hill (I miss him too!) have both had an interesting experience with NADH. I seem to recall that Ron found NADH increasingly irritating, as well as stimulating. Ron tried to deal with the increasing irritation the NADH was causing him by decreasing the dosage and spacing out the doses leaving several days between doses, but it did not work and he finally had to give up NADH even though it had been a great med for him for several months. I was wondering whether you had this side effect as well? You mentioned that you take 5mg per week. Do you take the 5mg all at once, or do you take 2.5mg twice a week, or some other dosage plan? For how long have you been on 5mg a week? I hope it keeps working for you.
Ktemene
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2004, at 14:49:04
In reply to Re: NADH a psychostimulant? » Larry Hoover, posted by Ktemene on July 3, 2004, at 14:20:53
> Hi Lar,
>
> You and Ron Hill (I miss him too!) have both had an interesting experience with NADH. I seem to recall that Ron found NADH increasingly irritating, as well as stimulating. Ron tried to deal with the increasing irritation the NADH was causing him by decreasing the dosage and spacing out the doses leaving several days between doses, but it did not work and he finally had to give up NADH even though it had been a great med for him for several months. I was wondering whether you had this side effect as well? You mentioned that you take 5mg per week. Do you take the 5mg all at once, or do you take 2.5mg twice a week, or some other dosage plan? For how long have you been on 5mg a week? I hope it keeps working for you.
>
> KtemeneThere's always much of a story left untold. Last year, I had great success using NADH, particularly with respect to preventing work-related fatigue. I had a history of significant episodic "crashes" following work periods. It was very predictable, and quite consistent with a chronic fatigue syndrome diagnosis. NADH totally felt like a godsend. After a whole month of work in February 2003, I did not crash. It felt like a miracle.
I was taking about 5 mg/week through the summer of 2003. I am just not calendar-oriented, so I can't be more specific than that. July saw me work more hours per week, and more consecutive weeks, than I had worked in years. I think I pushed too hard, as I declined over the next few months. At some point along the way, I stopped taking NADH. I don't even think I could tell you why. Maybe I just forgot. I really am not the greatest role model. Maybe I could use a personal assistant? Yes, that would be lovely. Where is Karen Kay when you need her?
Following renewal of the interest in NADH here, I restarted it yesterday (10 mg, with 750 mg TMG). Look at the difference in my output on this board today. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Lar
Posted by 1980Monroe on July 3, 2004, at 23:19:00
In reply to Re: NADH a psychostimulant? » Ktemene, posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2004, at 14:49:04
This post looks like your just took 50mg of Dexamphetamine, very impressive. Anyways, one itme i bought it a GNC, and took 3 (30mg) and did not feel much diffrence. i Guess like you said it takes time.
Posted by gromit on July 5, 2004, at 3:39:30
In reply to Re: NADH a psychostimulant? » 1980Monroe, posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2004, at 10:36:23
> I have to resort to anecdote to explain specifics. In my experience, and in that of a "lost" poster, Ron Hill (I miss you, Ron), it takes some time for the NADH effect to build. I liken it to filling up a well. Both Ron and I found that 10 mg/day was needed initially, and that over time the effect seemed to increase. Then, and quite dramatically/suddenly, we both found that 10 mg/day was too much (as if the well filled up, and started to overflow). Thereafter, 5 mg/week was sufficient to maintain the effect. We both found that trimethylglycine (TMG) had a synergistic effect, making the NADH stimulation more pleasant.
>That's so weird because I had the exact opposite experience. The first day NADH had an INTENSE effect, the closest thing I can think of would be freebasing cocaine, except the effect lasted 12+ hrs.
When I woke up the next day the stimulation was still there, took another 10 mg and had energy the whole day as well, much less intense though. Probably a good thing.
After those 2 days it seemed to have the opposite effect, almost like a sedative or something and I stopped for a few months. Started it again last week and so far nothing. Maybe I should give it a little longer.
I had another experience like this a long time ago from one of those mega packs of vitamins from 7-11. When I tried it the next day it did nothing.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 7, 2004, at 11:32:03
In reply to Re: NADH a psychostimulant?, posted by gromit on July 5, 2004, at 3:39:30
> > I have to resort to anecdote to explain specifics. In my experience, and in that of a "lost" poster, Ron Hill (I miss you, Ron), it takes some time for the NADH effect to build. I liken it to filling up a well. Both Ron and I found that 10 mg/day was needed initially, and that over time the effect seemed to increase. Then, and quite dramatically/suddenly, we both found that 10 mg/day was too much (as if the well filled up, and started to overflow). Thereafter, 5 mg/week was sufficient to maintain the effect. We both found that trimethylglycine (TMG) had a synergistic effect, making the NADH stimulation more pleasant.
> >
>
> That's so weird because I had the exact opposite experience. The first day NADH had an INTENSE effect, the closest thing I can think of would be freebasing cocaine, except the effect lasted 12+ hrs.You don't mention dose, but I'll presume 10 mg?
> When I woke up the next day the stimulation was still there, took another 10 mg and had energy the whole day as well, much less intense though. Probably a good thing.
>
> After those 2 days it seemed to have the opposite effect, almost like a sedative or something and I stopped for a few months. Started it again last week and so far nothing. Maybe I should give it a little longer.Ron and I both felt a mixed reaction, kind of sedative, I suppose, but certainly irritability was a factor. That's the point where we both went to spacing the dose out. I went to 5 mg per week, at the onset of that "threshold" experience.
> I had another experience like this a long time ago from one of those mega packs of vitamins from 7-11. When I tried it the next day it did nothing.There's a lot we don't understand about NADH. I have a chronic fatigue type syndrome, and it has high efficacy in CFS. It would probably help in fibromyalgia. Probably in chronic treatment-resistant depression. It's all a guess, though.
Lar
Posted by gromit on July 10, 2004, at 2:30:24
In reply to Re: NADH a psychostimulant? » gromit, posted by Larry Hoover on July 7, 2004, at 11:32:03
> > > I have to resort to anecdote to explain specifics. In my experience, and in that of a "lost" poster, Ron Hill (I miss you, Ron), it takes some time for the NADH effect to build. I liken it to filling up a well. Both Ron and I found that 10 mg/day was needed initially, and that over time the effect seemed to increase. Then, and quite dramatically/suddenly, we both found that 10 mg/day was too much (as if the well filled up, and started to overflow). Thereafter, 5 mg/week was sufficient to maintain the effect. We both found that trimethylglycine (TMG) had a synergistic effect, making the NADH stimulation more pleasant.
> > >
> >
> > That's so weird because I had the exact opposite experience. The first day NADH had an INTENSE effect, the closest thing I can think of would be freebasing cocaine, except the effect lasted 12+ hrs.
>
> You don't mention dose, but I'll presume 10 mg?
>Not exactly, I did take 10mg first thing in the morning, at that time it made me quite agitated. I took 2 Gaba Plus which includes 400mg niacinamide and 1200mg inositol and that calmed me down, in fact it put me to sleep. Upon waking I took another 5mg tab and when that kicked in it was off to the races.
> > When I woke up the next day the stimulation was still there, took another 10 mg and had energy the whole day as well, much less intense though. Probably a good thing.
> >
> > After those 2 days it seemed to have the opposite effect, almost like a sedative or something and I stopped for a few months. Started it again last week and so far nothing. Maybe I should give it a little longer.
>
> Ron and I both felt a mixed reaction, kind of sedative, I suppose, but certainly irritability was a factor. That's the point where we both went to spacing the dose out. I went to 5 mg per week, at the onset of that "threshold" experience.Hmmmm, when it worked for me it was just pure energy, none of the lip biting or jaw clenching or other side effects I have had from other stimulants. At least not any more than what my current meds give me.
> > I had another experience like this a long time ago from one of those mega packs of vitamins from 7-11. When I tried it the next day it did nothing.
>
> There's a lot we don't understand about NADH. I have a chronic fatigue type syndrome, and it has high efficacy in CFS. It would probably help in fibromyalgia. Probably in chronic treatment-resistant depression. It's all a guess, though.Well I've learned not to expect too much from meds or supplements, despite that I thought maybe this could be my magic bullet. If only I could get say 20% of the energy from that first day over the long haul.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 10, 2004, at 7:24:45
In reply to Re: NADH a psychostimulant?, posted by gromit on July 10, 2004, at 2:30:24
> > Ron and I both felt a mixed reaction, kind of sedative, I suppose, but certainly irritability was a factor. That's the point where we both went to spacing the dose out. I went to 5 mg per week, at the onset of that "threshold" experience.
>
> Hmmmm, when it worked for me it was just pure energy, none of the lip biting or jaw clenching or other side effects I have had from other stimulants. At least not any more than what my current meds give me.It sounds like a dose issue, rather than a "wrong substance for me" issue. Ron and I both found that TMG took the edge off the NADH, despite the fact that I find that either one alone has an edge. They had synergy, for us.
> Well I've learned not to expect too much from meds or supplements, despite that I thought maybe this could be my magic bullet.
I don't believe in magic bullets. I do, however, believe that every little bit helps. A little here, a little there, and who knows what the benefits will add up to.
> If only I could get say 20% of the energy from that first day over the long haul.
It sounds like a dose issue, as I said. You can get 2.5 mg tablets, 5 mg tablets, 10 mg tablets, and 10 mg sublinguals. How much, and when?
Lar
Posted by gromit on July 13, 2004, at 17:13:10
In reply to Re: NADH a psychostimulant? » gromit, posted by Larry Hoover on July 10, 2004, at 7:24:45
> > Hmmmm, when it worked for me it was just pure energy, none of the lip biting or jaw clenching or other side effects I have had from other stimulants. At least not any more than what my current meds give me.
>
> It sounds like a dose issue, rather than a "wrong substance for me" issue. Ron and I both found that TMG took the edge off the NADH, despite the fact that I find that either one alone has an edge. They had synergy, for us.I have tried TMG although maybe not at the same time as the NADH.
> > Well I've learned not to expect too much from meds or supplements, despite that I thought maybe this could be my magic bullet.
>
> I don't believe in magic bullets. I do, however, believe that every little bit helps. A little here, a little there, and who knows what the benefits will add up to.Oh I agree, it's just that this worked so well, like I had taken a powerful stimulant, not a "vitamin". I take a B complex and a multi most days, so my thinking was maybe my body is not converting things the way it should. Actually I have thought that for a long time now.
> > If only I could get say 20% of the energy from that first day over the long haul.
>
> It sounds like a dose issue, as I said. You can get 2.5 mg tablets, 5 mg tablets, 10 mg tablets, and 10 mg sublinguals. How much, and when?Well bought some sublinguals to see if that makes any difference, and I'll start the TMG again and just see what happens.
How much and when, yup. I recently started a trial of Provigil and didn't feel anything with less than 300mg. I've had mixed results with Provigil as well, and one day 300mg had no effect, took another 100mg and still nothing.
I just have to say, after reading the archives of this board, you are a smart guy who is very generous with his time, and you write in a manner that is easy to understand. Ok I'm not prone to gushing so I'll stop there.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 14, 2004, at 8:17:16
In reply to Re: NADH a psychostimulant?, posted by gromit on July 13, 2004, at 17:13:10
> > It sounds like a dose issue, rather than a "wrong substance for me" issue. Ron and I both found that TMG took the edge off the NADH, despite the fact that I find that either one alone has an edge. They had synergy, for us.
>
> I have tried TMG although maybe not at the same time as the NADH.There's no real upper limit on TMG, just your tolerance of it.
> > I don't believe in magic bullets. I do, however, believe that every little bit helps. A little here, a little there, and who knows what the benefits will add up to.
>
> Oh I agree, it's just that this worked so well, like I had taken a powerful stimulant, not a "vitamin".I "heard" that part, loud and clear. But it quickly stopped working just that way, if I heard you correctly. Whenever I get a profound result from a supp, I tend to think that is because I really needed some in my body, and my body is up-regulated to it because there isn't enough. That may not be true, of course, but it's my first working hypothesis. Then I work at dose, to get a manageable maintenance dose. Sometimes, though, adverse effects do crop up, and you have to figure out things on a cost-benefit basis.
> I take a B complex and a multi most days, so my thinking was maybe my body is not converting things the way it should. Actually I have thought that for a long time now.
In the taurine thread I mention my old friend Alan, who got me thinking about (high-dose) nutrient supplementation as treatment. At the time, I mentioned that I would describe my underlying defect as sub-clinical malabsorption syndrome. Despite an adequate diet, I just could not get what I needed out of food alone, but I got by well enough to not be diagnosed with celiac sprue or whatever. It was an intuitive thing. I'm still working on the rational details which are corollary to the intuition. You gotta believe that you're the expert on you, and take it from there.
> > > If only I could get say 20% of the energy from that first day over the long haul.
> >
> > It sounds like a dose issue, as I said. You can get 2.5 mg tablets, 5 mg tablets, 10 mg tablets, and 10 mg sublinguals. How much, and when?
>
> Well bought some sublinguals to see if that makes any difference, and I'll start the TMG again and just see what happens.The sublinguals are potent, relative to the oral tablets, in my opinion. They're actually quite soft, so I wouldn't think you'd have too much trouble breaking them into smaller pieces. I'd keep the bits (if there are any) in the freezer. NADH is pretty unstable, and bacteria think it's the bomb.
> How much and when, yup. I recently started a trial of Provigil and didn't feel anything with less than 300mg. I've had mixed results with Provigil as well, and one day 300mg had no effect, took another 100mg and still nothing.
Wow. Provigil works on a totally unique mechanism (compared with e.g. amphetamines). I'll ponder the implications a bit.
> I just have to say, after reading the archives of this board, you are a smart guy who is very generous with his time, and you write in a manner that is easy to understand. Ok I'm not prone to gushing so I'll stop there.
Awwww, that's very kind of you to say that. I really enjoy doing this, and though I don't do it for the strokes, the strokes are welcome. Thanks.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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