![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by Simus on September 4, 2004, at 18:54:25
In reply to Re: I've lost track......... » Simus, posted by KaraS on September 4, 2004, at 13:53:38
> Hi Simus,
>
> Are you feeling better today?Much! Thank you for always caring. You are very special.
> > > > The past two weeks I have been dizzy, anxious, very oily skin, hair loss, no weight gain/loss though...
> > >
> > > Have you started taking any supplement or anything that might have caused these side effects? As you probably know, only the hair loss is typical for hypothyroid (that I know of anyway). How strange! Maybe when you know who gets back from daddy mode, he'll have some insights.
> >
> > I have noticed that I seem to have a yearly "symptom" cycle. Right around August I have had anxiety and just feel generally dizzy/nausious and yucky. Then around January I have had to deal with depression and low energy. I am wondering if the thyroid can fluctuate between a little too high and a little too low throughout the year.
>
> Have you ever considered bipolar disease? I know it seems like a stretch but I was reading other posts by people who were diagnosed with that and some of them had very mild conditions. Do you remember BarbaraCat? Did you ever read any of her posts? I would never have guessed by the symptoms she listed that she was bipolar. Yet that was her diagnosis and lithium ended up helping her immensely. Did you have these symptoms prior to the Lexapro because medications can bring on the bipolar condition? Jane Pauley's condition was brought on by steroids which obviously effect the sex hormones. Lexapro definitely effected your sex hormones as it gave you the menopausal syptoms. Maybe messing with the hormones is enough to do it. OTOH, if you were bipolar, then wouldn't the Wellbutrin have made you quite manic? I don't know. If you think this might be worth looking into, I'll find the BarbaraCat posting(s) for you.When I was diagnosed with depression, I studied the symptoms of manic depression and compared the manic phase to the anxiety I was experiencing. It really didn't seem to fit me. Actually, the "summer anxiety" was usually accompanied by some level of depression.
> > > Fortunately, this opportunity came after I'd already been feeling somewhat better so that i could do well on the interview. (Had it been a week earlier, I doubt I could have risen to the occasion.)
> >
> > Timing is everything. Just this week I spoke to some people where I used to work. They have too much work and need people, but I just felt so bad... If it had been just a month earlier...
>
> Yes, but if you had gone back to work and then gotten sick like this, it could have been disasterous for you both physically and mentally.Oh, I would have felt awful about it. These were the people that put up with me for 3 months on Lexapro (virtually non-functional) and then one day came in to find I was on sick leave for an undetermined amount of time. Then if I got sick again as soon as I came back, I would have beaten myself up over it so bad...
>
>
> > > It's a long road sometimes I guess.
> >
> > Yeah. It sure is. Sometimes it seems endless...
>
>
> Yeah, I know. But then when something good happens again, you feel encouraged again and it doesn't seem so endless.Yeah... =)
>
>
> > > Please keep me posted on how you're doing.
> >
> > Ditto. If we don't have any good news to report, we can always resort to pondering the truth about the elusive Larry. Hey, I have one. Could it be that the young Hoover boys are actually Larry clones? Maybe he just couldn't keep up with all the questions here, and so he is multiplying himself. What do you think?
> >
> > Simus
> >
> >
>
> Yes, that's a good idea! He's been so busy, I'm not sure he's even reading these. Just think of all the fun we could have! I'm certain you're right about the cloning. Knowing Larry, he figured out how to do it years ago. I just can't wait for them to grow up and help us out here when that selfish Larry decides to take vacations. (LOL)Next time he goes on vacation, I promise I will let you come barge into their privacy with me. We'll be like Lucy and Ethel in Hollywood looking for movie stars, only we'll be Kara and Simus in the Alps looking for Larry and Gabbix2(did I get her name right?).
>
> BTW, did you notice how excited Larry got about the article I posted for him? He was so funny. (I was so glad I sent it as I had been debating whether or not he'd be interested in it.)NO! What it on Alternative??? I will have to look for it. Uhhh... You're not trying to elbow me right out of the next vacation, are you???
>
> Keep the faith,
> KaraDitto to you, my friend,
Simus
Posted by tealady on September 4, 2004, at 21:43:16
In reply to Re: I've lost track......... » KaraS, posted by Simus on September 4, 2004, at 18:54:25
Just a couple of thoughts..I've no idea whether you may benefit from thyroid meds...probably not if I HAD to guess.
Your results are strange (similar to what mine were actually before thyroid meds..but yours are a tad more so). I've benefited from thyroid meds..but it's been a very difficult road, and one I'd not readily recommend without tyring other things first. Definitely just taking one t4 tablet a day just made me much worse, but then we are all individual. One thing about thyroid meds is..very difficult to get off once on. I was very symptomatic too or I wouldn't have tried them.I don't think anyone could tell you with your test results what you should do...but see if can get FT3 and perhaps RT3(that's Reverse T3.) taken together with he T3, Ft4 and TSH...the FT3 is important.
I'd guess your results may be plausible with highish RT3 and low Ft3, (mine RT3 looked OK I guess..but that was taken byu itself after I'd been on thyroid meds for a long time..shuld have been taken before really to be meaningful ..and with the total T3 etc for a ratio)I really have no idea exactly how the various thyroid hormones (T3, RT3, T3S, T2's, T4..the free levels and the total levels) relate to TSH feedback...noone does I think as yet. Your TSH is your Pituitary's output in reposnse to (amonst other things) thyroid hormone levels ..it would , I assume, be affected by other things too..including pdrugs, adrenals, cortisol levels, perhaps other hormone levels, things like aspirin, etc....I suspect its a lot more complicated than just what your FT3 and Ft4 levels are, but for most folk TSH has a good enough correlation to thyroid functioning....
The pituitary can get itself in a bind sometimes..eg. when the TSH has been suppressed when one is hyperthyroid for a long time..the TSH may (in SOME people) stay suppressed for a long time..months, maybe up to a couple of years after they have reduced their thyroid hormone levels...as measured by FT4 and FT3. Too many docs just go by TSH...which is OK if you don't have any problems. (like for the majority of people)
I'd like to suggest you tooddle over to http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages
and put your results up..make the heading meaningful..and also mention what pdrugs you are on.. Wellbutrin? at the time of the test..and how long for etc. A significant percentage of folks there are on or have been on pdrugs, so you may come across someone who can comment...well it's worth a try IMO.
Also mention your strange reaction to licorice, perhaps in another post..you may get some feedback. Although there are a lot of posts there every day so they don't all get answers.
You can always try the advanced search on there (if it works)...search on licorice...
The other thing worth checking , IMO, is your electrolyes..like potassium, magnesium, sodium,calcium etc. ..and your ferritin levels too(part of iron studies). Look for lowish potassium maybe? or perhaps VitD/calcium levels? Licorice lowers potassium..but I doubt just one lot of licorice would do this.
Worth checking before you consider thyroid hormones?
Posted by Simus on September 4, 2004, at 22:33:31
In reply to thyroid test results, licorice etc » Simus, posted by tealady on September 4, 2004, at 21:43:16
> I've no idea whether you may benefit from thyroid meds...probably not if I HAD to guess.
My symptoms lean a little toward the hyperthyroid right now, oddly enough, and I am a little leary to go any farther in that direction.
> Your results are strange (similar to what mine were actually before thyroid meds..but yours are a tad more so). I've benefited from thyroid meds..but it's been a very difficult road, and one I'd not readily recommend without tyring other things first. Definitely just taking one t4 tablet a day just made me much worse, but then we are all individual. One thing about thyroid meds is..very difficult to get off once on. I was very symptomatic too or I wouldn't have tried them.
Hmmmm... I will definitely consider the thyroid drugs carefully before I try any.
> I don't think anyone could tell you with your test results what you should do...but see if can get FT3 and perhaps RT3(that's Reverse T3.) taken together with he T3, Ft4 and TSH...the FT3 is important.
My sister has Hashimoto's Disease and my mother is hyperthyroid, so there could be some genetic things going on that would merit the further testing.
> I'd guess your results may be plausible with highish RT3 and low Ft3, (mine RT3 looked OK I guess..but that was taken byu itself after I'd been on thyroid meds for a long time..shuld have been taken before really to be meaningful ..and with the total T3 etc for a ratio)
>
> I really have no idea exactly how the various thyroid hormones (T3, RT3, T3S, T2's, T4..the free levels and the total levels) relate to TSH feedback...noone does I think as yet. Your TSH is your Pituitary's output in reposnse to (amonst other things) thyroid hormone levels ..I have wondered about the pituitary thing, but I don't exactly fit any of the profiles there either...
> it would , I assume, be affected by other things too..including pdrugs, adrenals, cortisol levels, perhaps other hormone levels, things like aspirin, etc....
Ahhhh... Now that is a definite possiblilty. I definitely had exhausted adrenals last spring, and I still have symptoms of adrenal fatigue.
> I suspect its a lot more complicated than just what your FT3 and Ft4 levels are, but for most folk TSH has a good enough correlation to thyroid functioning....
>
> The pituitary can get itself in a bind sometimes..eg. when the TSH has been suppressed when one is hyperthyroid for a long time..the TSH may (in SOME people) stay suppressed for a long time..months, maybe up to a couple of years after they have reduced their thyroid hormone levels...as measured by FT4 and FT3. Too many docs just go by TSH...which is OK if you don't have any problems. (like for the majority of people)
>
> I'd like to suggest you tooddle over to http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages
> and put your results up..make the heading meaningful..and also mention what pdrugs you are on.. Wellbutrin? at the time of the test..and how long for etc. A significant percentage of folks there are on or have been on pdrugs, so you may come across someone who can comment...well it's worth a try IMO.Thanks for the advice. Its worth a try...
> Also mention your strange reaction to licorice, perhaps in another post..you may get some feedback. Although there are a lot of posts there every day so they don't all get answers.
> You can always try the advanced search on there (if it works)...search on licorice...
> The other thing worth checking , IMO, is your electrolyes..like potassium, magnesium, sodium,calcium etc. ..and your ferritin levels too(part of iron studies).I definitely want to have this test.
> Look for lowish potassium maybe? or perhaps VitD/calcium levels? Licorice lowers potassium..but I doubt just one lot of licorice would do this.
> Worth checking before you consider thyroid hormones?Thanks for the advice, Tealady. You really took a lot of time just to help me, and it is an encouragement to me.
God bless,
Simus
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 9:52:56
In reply to any more on taurine?, posted by LOOPS on September 2, 2004, at 14:32:32
> Personal experience over past week -
>
> taurine taken with glutamine + B 50 works better for me than taurine without glutamine, which makes me feel more relaxed but totally unmotivated and depressed after a few days.Thanks for the glutamine tip. Glutamine also antagonizes glutamate.
> Taurine + tryptophan + glutamine + NATyrosine + cofactors works better, but have to get ratios right or end up too one way. Not perfect but better (doable).
>
> Any more on taurine??I still use it for acute treatment of stressed brain. I still love it.
> Thanks Laz
>
> Lops<grin>
> p.s. SJW now completely stopped working for some reason, despite trying to up dose.Any antidepressant can do that, I'm afraid.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 10:11:37
In reply to Re: I've lost track......... » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on September 2, 2004, at 16:29:14
> Honestly, I think there was only one thing missing: in one of Simus' posts about the kind of food sensitivity test she had done. You said that there were good tests for this and not so good ones. She mentioned RASP and either ELISA or ERISA (I think it was the former). The ELISA/ERISA one I believe is what I had years ago. That's the good one, isn't it?
Food sensitivies/allergies are a huge conceptual quagmire. There is a lot of psuedoscience in there.
RAST can be very useful. It is a test of IgE response to allergens. For that, it works beautifully, but.....
a) it is most useful for inhallant allergens (e.g. pollens, spores)
b) it has a strong negative predictive utility (i.e. no RAST response is a pretty good indication that the body is not sensitized (90% utility on negative responses))
c) positive tests are merely suggestive. Only if a food history indicates a possible sensitivity, and the RAST is positive, should there be any clinical response (e.g. food elimination/rechallenge, or better yet double-blind food challenge (best done in the doctor's office, because if you have a serious response, it is an emergency)).ELISA is a test for IgG response. Everybody has IgG responses to food, and, in fact, IgG responses may be protective against IgE responses (which can be fatal). All formal allergy specialists (doctors with extra years of study in residency programs) dismiss ELISA as an unreliable measure, except when its results bolster the RAST, and food diaries.
See: http://www.tldp.com/issue/174/IgG%20Food%20Allergy.html
RAST itself is perhaps a "lazy man's" version of skin prick tests. But, even those can be unreliable, as most of the food extracts are not stable (they are perishable). Same goes for the RAST reagents. They are notoriously unstable. RAST *is* an excellent way to determine e.g. peanut, shellfish, wheat, etc. allergies, as most of the top allergens do have stable and reliable allergens to employ in the tests. It gets less reliable the more you move away from the most common allergens.
Moreover, even a negative test (via RAST or skin-prick) does not guarantee the absence of allergy, or cross-reactivity. Peanut allergy can show up as an allergic response to licorice. An allergy to birch pollen can make you react to apple skins, but only when the offending pollen is sensitizing you (i.e. only in the spring). It's a very messy and illogical environment.
The take-home message is that RAST (better) and ELISA (far less reliable) are starting points for investigations, not points from which conclusions can be reached.
You may get a lot out of perusing this site:
http://www.allergy-clinic.co.uk/food_allergy_testing.htm> P.S. How old are your two sons?
Alexander is 12 (but his voice is changing, and he's already acting teenage, and he is almost as big as me). Thomas is 10, and even he is over five feet and 105 lbs. The food bills are already outrageous. Thank god I love to cook.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 10:22:21
In reply to Re: I've lost track......... » Larry Hoover, posted by Simus on September 3, 2004, at 0:10:58
> > I can't think of a single disorder where fish oils are contraindicated. If you can find such a reference, let me know, 'kay?
>
> It is because of the pyroluria condition. Dr. Edmond O`Flaherty has a very good Omega3 website http://www.omega3.20megsfree.com/whats_new.html where he included some of Dr. Walsh's work at the Pfeiffer clinic on pyrolurics. "We've had considerable success in using PUFA's (poly-unsaturated fatty acids) to treat persons with mental illness, but have found that omega-3 and omega-6 oils can cause clear worsening if given inappropriately. Pyrolurics need omega-6..... whereas most other patients need omega-3. There is a competition between o3 and o6 for zinc, B-6, and the delta 5,6 desaturases. The ideal would be to identify a person's biochemical individuality, with respect to PUFA's, then treat accordingly."I've only just begun to root out the truth within the theory, and it doesn't look good for Pfeiffer et al.
There are correlations between a sub-population of the mentally ill and nutritional status and pyrroles in urine. Correlation can be explained in four possible ways. A leads to B; B leads to A (identical correlation in both these cases); coincidence; or, both A and B are caused by an unmeasured entity (or entities) C (and D, etc.).
I am arriving at the conlusion that this latter case is the better explanation. Porphyria is a disorder of heme synthesis. Porphyrrins are essential protein-derived "shells" for the reactive metal ion in various molecules, such as chlorophyll, or hemoglobin. Porphyria has many variants, so it's hard to make generalizations, but one form is out-of-control synthesis of the pyrroles which are later turned into porphyrins. The excess pyrroles are dumped into urine by the kidneys. The pyrroles have numerous adverse effects, including psychosis and mood disturbance. Those adverse effects can be ameliorated by zinc and B6 supplements, in some cases. I believe that pyroluria (as a disorder) is an accidental re-discovery of porphyria, by someone who did not recognize its origin.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 10:27:02
In reply to Licorice, posted by Simus on September 3, 2004, at 23:47:55
> Kara and Larry,
>
> Well today around 6pm I FINALLY got up the courage to try the licorice after a couple of years. (I have become leary of taking anything since a few BAD reactions.) Well... At around 9pm I had a slice of pizza (late and not great supper). I wasn't feeling well, but I attributed it to waiting so long for supper. Within minutes I was running to the bathroom and my stomach violently returned my dinner. Then the diarrhea started. I was so miserable that I was contemplating going to the hospital. I called my family physician and told him I took licorice. He wasn't surprised with the reaction, and said that licorice is toxic to a lot of people. He told me to just ride it out for about 12-24 hours, and it will be out of my system and I will feel better (and to stick to liquids).
>
> I was just wondering if either of you have any thoughts on this.
>
> SimusOh, most certainly, I do.
Licorice is an accepted treatment for stomach upset. It is not known to cause it.
Licorice can be toxic, if you take it for months on end. It causes pseudo-aldosteronism.
I think there are two reasonable explanations for your experience.
1. Coincidence. You were going to be sick anyway.
2. Allergy. That is a possibility, but it would be exceedingly rare, and I'd have thought you'd know about that already, unless you seldom eat licorice.If you think you can bear the risk, try taking some on another day, with a meal.
Challenge/rechallenge is an accepted way to consider coincidence as a possible explanation.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 10:30:23
In reply to Re: I've lost track......... » KaraS, posted by Simus on September 4, 2004, at 1:07:31
> I have noticed that I seem to have a yearly "symptom" cycle. Right around August I have had anxiety and just feel generally dizzy/nausious and yucky. Then around January I have had to deal with depression and low energy. I am wondering if the thyroid can fluctuate between a little too high and a little too low throughout the year.
Have you considered Seasonal Affective Disorder (the acronym SAD is very appropriate)?
It may be related to: light exposure, and thus melatonin synthesis in the pineal gland; vitamin D status (sunlight on skin is the major source of this vitamin); diet changes due to seasonal availability of foods.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 10:32:28
In reply to Re: I've lost track......... » Simus, posted by KaraS on September 4, 2004, at 13:53:38
> BTW, did you notice how excited Larry got about the article I posted for him? He was so funny.
<Spock eyebrow in extreme position>
Posted by Simus on September 5, 2004, at 12:14:40
In reply to Re: seasonal variability » Simus, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 10:30:23
> > I have noticed that I seem to have a yearly "symptom" cycle. Right around August I have had anxiety and just feel generally dizzy/nausious and yucky. Then around January I have had to deal with depression and low energy. I am wondering if the thyroid can fluctuate between a little too high and a little too low throughout the year.
>
> Have you considered Seasonal Affective Disorder (the acronym SAD is very appropriate)?
>
> It may be related to: light exposure, and thus melatonin synthesis in the pineal gland; vitamin D status (sunlight on skin is the major source of this vitamin); diet changes due to seasonal availability of foods.
>
> LarI am very sensitive to sunlight or lack thereof. If I am outside a LOT on a midsummer day in direct sunlight, I feel sick for a couple of days after (anxiety, nausea, shaky). My psych doctor must have concluded that I have SAD, because he pushes me every winter to use the "lamp". It is only marginally effective though. It is a good lamp and it helps, but it does not take the place of sunshine. By the way, I LOVE spring and autumn.
How are YOU doing, Lar??? You are so busy answering questions that you don't give us many updates. I can't help you much, but I can pray. =)
Simus
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 14:04:14
In reply to Re: seasonal variability » Larry Hoover, posted by Simus on September 5, 2004, at 12:14:40
> > > I have noticed that I seem to have a yearly "symptom" cycle. Right around August I have had anxiety and just feel generally dizzy/nausious and yucky. Then around January I have had to deal with depression and low energy. I am wondering if the thyroid can fluctuate between a little too high and a little too low throughout the year.
> >
> > Have you considered Seasonal Affective Disorder (the acronym SAD is very appropriate)?
> >
> > It may be related to: light exposure, and thus melatonin synthesis in the pineal gland; vitamin D status (sunlight on skin is the major source of this vitamin); diet changes due to seasonal availability of foods.
> >
> > Lar
>
> I am very sensitive to sunlight or lack thereof. If I am outside a LOT on a midsummer day in direct sunlight, I feel sick for a couple of days after (anxiety, nausea, shaky).There is a syndrome which, for want of a better term, is called photo-allergy. An allergy to sunlight sounds absurd, but some people are so inclined.
> My psych doctor must have concluded that I have SAD, because he pushes me every winter to use the "lamp". It is only marginally effective though.
It is better used prophylactically, than as a treatment. Some people benefit most when they start using it now, around the autumnal equinox.
> It is a good lamp and it helps, but it does not take the place of sunshine. By the way, I LOVE spring and autumn.
I love spring and autumn, too, and I also have a seasonal variation in my well-being. I am ambivalent about the lamp, too, but I'm going to use it. Last year, I didn't, and I had a very rough winter.
> How are YOU doing, Lar??? You are so busy answering questions that you don't give us many updates. I can't help you much, but I can pray. =)
>
> SimusAwwww. Caring for me is all I really need. Thanks for asking.
My MRI was inconclusive, and my elbow has not gotten any better. It's still as bad, or worse, than it was in March. I've been referred to one of Canada's top elbow guys, but that's going to take some time to get to diagnosis and treatment. It's still not clear what's wrong, although something certainly is.
Otherwise, I'm doing all right, I guess. I filled out an application for a full-time government job, so I must be feeling both well-enough and hopeful.
How are you doing?
Lar
Posted by Simus on September 5, 2004, at 15:20:04
In reply to Re: seasonal variability » Simus, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 14:04:14
> > > > I have noticed that I seem to have a yearly "symptom" cycle. Right around August I have had anxiety and just feel generally dizzy/nausious and yucky. Then around January I have had to deal with depression and low energy. I am wondering if the thyroid can fluctuate between a little too high and a little too low throughout the year.
> > >
> > > Have you considered Seasonal Affective Disorder (the acronym SAD is very appropriate)?
> > >
> > > It may be related to: light exposure, and thus melatonin synthesis in the pineal gland; vitamin D status (sunlight on skin is the major source of this vitamin); diet changes due to seasonal availability of foods.
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> > I am very sensitive to sunlight or lack thereof. If I am outside a LOT on a midsummer day in direct sunlight, I feel sick for a couple of days after (anxiety, nausea, shaky).
>
> There is a syndrome which, for want of a better term, is called photo-allergy. An allergy to sunlight sounds absurd, but some people are so inclined.Is there anything that I could do for that???
> > My psych doctor must have concluded that I have SAD, because he pushes me every winter to use the "lamp". It is only marginally effective though.
>
> It is better used prophylactically, than as a treatment. Some people benefit most when they start using it now, around the autumnal equinox.Ohhhh. The problem is that I don't much think about it when I am feeling well. I need to be much more diligent...
> > It is a good lamp and it helps, but it does not take the place of sunshine. By the way, I LOVE spring and autumn.
>
> I love spring and autumn, too, and I also have a seasonal variation in my well-being. I am ambivalent about the lamp, too, but I'm going to use it. Last year, I didn't, and I had a very rough winter.
>
> > How are YOU doing, Lar??? You are so busy answering questions that you don't give us many updates. I can't help you much, but I can pray. =)
> >
> > Simus
>
> Awwww. Caring for me is all I really need. Thanks for asking.
>
> My MRI was inconclusive, and my elbow has not gotten any better. It's still as bad, or worse, than it was in March. I've been referred to one of Canada's top elbow guys, but that's going to take some time to get to diagnosis and treatment. It's still not clear what's wrong, although something certainly is.I remember when you had your MRI, but I really didn't know you before that so I didn't know what was was going on with your elbow. Would you mind sharing?
> Otherwise, I'm doing all right, I guess. I filled out an application for a full-time government job, so I must be feeling both well-enough and hopeful.
Government employee... Yeah... So was Bond, James Bond. LOL (Kara, I think we were right!)
>
> How are you doing?
>
> LarDiscouraged, Lar. Disappointed with the doctors and the drug companies, and tired of the responsibility of having to undo the problems they have caused, not to mention the ongoing search for the original problem and the "fix" for it. (Sorry to dump.)
Simus
Posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 15:36:59
In reply to Re: allergy testing » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 10:11:37
> > Honestly, I think there was only one thing missing: in one of Simus' posts about the kind of food sensitivity test she had done. You said that there were good tests for this and not so good ones. She mentioned RASP and either ELISA or ERISA (I think it was the former). The ELISA/ERISA one I believe is what I had years ago. That's the good one, isn't it?
>
> Food sensitivies/allergies are a huge conceptual quagmire. There is a lot of psuedoscience in there.
>
> RAST can be very useful. It is a test of IgE response to allergens. For that, it works beautifully, but.....
> a) it is most useful for inhallant allergens (e.g. pollens, spores)
> b) it has a strong negative predictive utility (i.e. no RAST response is a pretty good indication that the body is not sensitized (90% utility on negative responses))
> c) positive tests are merely suggestive. Only if a food history indicates a possible sensitivity, and the RAST is positive, should there be any clinical response (e.g. food elimination/rechallenge, or better yet double-blind food challenge (best done in the doctor's office, because if you have a serious response, it is an emergency)).
>
> ELISA is a test for IgG response. Everybody has IgG responses to food, and, in fact, IgG responses may be protective against IgE responses (which can be fatal). All formal allergy specialists (doctors with extra years of study in residency programs) dismiss ELISA as an unreliable measure, except when its results bolster the RAST, and food diaries.
>
> See: http://www.tldp.com/issue/174/IgG%20Food%20Allergy.html
>
> RAST itself is perhaps a "lazy man's" version of skin prick tests. But, even those can be unreliable, as most of the food extracts are not stable (they are perishable). Same goes for the RAST reagents. They are notoriously unstable. RAST *is* an excellent way to determine e.g. peanut, shellfish, wheat, etc. allergies, as most of the top allergens do have stable and reliable allergens to employ in the tests. It gets less reliable the more you move away from the most common allergens.
>
> Moreover, even a negative test (via RAST or skin-prick) does not guarantee the absence of allergy, or cross-reactivity. Peanut allergy can show up as an allergic response to licorice. An allergy to birch pollen can make you react to apple skins, but only when the offending pollen is sensitizing you (i.e. only in the spring). It's a very messy and illogical environment.
>
> The take-home message is that RAST (better) and ELISA (far less reliable) are starting points for investigations, not points from which conclusions can be reached.
>
> You may get a lot out of perusing this site:
> http://www.allergy-clinic.co.uk/food_allergy_testing.htm
>
> > P.S. How old are your two sons?
>
> Alexander is 12 (but his voice is changing, and he's already acting teenage, and he is almost as big as me). Thomas is 10, and even he is over five feet and 105 lbs. The food bills are already outrageous. Thank god I love to cook.
>
> Lar
Thanks. Bottom line it sounds like you can't completely rely on any food allergy tests unless it's for a few specified foods?Do either of your sons have your database mind?
-K
Posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 15:53:44
In reply to Re: seasonal variability » Simus, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 14:04:14
I just wanted to say that I was sorry to hear about your elbow not getting any better, Larry. But I'm glad you're attitude is good and you're not letting it depress you too much.
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 16:27:35
In reply to Re: seasonal variability, posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 15:53:44
> I just wanted to say that I was sorry to hear about your elbow not getting any better, Larry. But I'm glad you're attitude is good and you're not letting it depress you too much.
>
> KaraThanks. My post to admin took a lot out of me, so I'm going to go and tuber now. [tuber, v.i., to become a couch potato]
Lar
Posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 17:00:28
In reply to Re: I've lost track......... » KaraS, posted by Simus on September 4, 2004, at 18:54:25
> > Hi Simus,
> >
> > Are you feeling better today?
>
> Much! Thank you for always caring. You are very special.
So are you. You always do the same for me!
> > > > > The past two weeks I have been dizzy, anxious, very oily skin, hair loss, no weight gain/loss though...
> > > >I think what Larry suggested about SAD makes a lot of sense. I was going to throw that out to you next myself.
> > > > Fortunately, this opportunity came after I'd already been feeling somewhat better so that i could do well on the interview. (Had it been a week earlier, I doubt I could have risen to the occasion.)
> > >
> > > Timing is everything. Just this week I spoke to some people where I used to work. They have too much work and need people, but I just felt so bad... If it had been just a month earlier...
> >
> > Yes, but if you had gone back to work and then gotten sick like this, it could have been disasterous for you both physically and mentally.
>
> Oh, I would have felt awful about it. These were the people that put up with me for 3 months on Lexapro (virtually non-functional) and then one day came in to find I was on sick leave for an undetermined amount of time. Then if I got sick again as soon as I came back, I would have beaten myself up over it so bad...So it really did work out for the better. It just wasn't meant to be yet.
> > > > It's a long road sometimes I guess.
> > >
> > > Yeah. It sure is. Sometimes it seems endless...
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I know. But then when something good happens again, you feel encouraged again and it doesn't seem so endless.
>
> Yeah... =)
> >
> >
> > > > Please keep me posted on how you're doing.
> > >
> > > Ditto. If we don't have any good news to report, we can always resort to pondering the truth about the elusive Larry. Hey, I have one. Could it be that the young Hoover boys are actually Larry clones? Maybe he just couldn't keep up with all the questions here, and so he is multiplying himself. What do you think?
> > >
> > > Simus
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Yes, that's a good idea! He's been so busy, I'm not sure he's even reading these. Just think of all the fun we could have! I'm certain you're right about the cloning. Knowing Larry, he figured out how to do it years ago. I just can't wait for them to grow up and help us out here when that selfish Larry decides to take vacations. (LOL)
>
> Next time he goes on vacation, I promise I will let you come barge into their privacy with me. We'll be like Lucy and Ethel in Hollywood looking for movie stars, only we'll be Kara and Simus in the Alps looking for Larry and Gabbix2(did I get her name right?).OK, sounds like fun. I'd prefer to see us as a set of suave secret agents but Ethel and Lucy would work too (and is probably more accurate)! As an aside, I live in a section of LA (Brentwood) where a lot of stars live. Of course I'm in a dumpy apartment building and they're in mansions up in the hills, but I still run into them in town. You wouldn't believe who was walking in front of my complex as I drove into the driveway a couple of weeks ago? I was just a few feet from them and I nearly crashed my car when I saw them. Or who I walked past once (he was going out and I was going in) when I went to the Whole Foods store down the street from me. It's so ironic that I'm on my last dime and I'm living amongst the rich and famous.
> > BTW, did you notice how excited Larry got about the article I posted for him? He was so funny. (I was so glad I sent it as I had been debating whether or not he'd be interested in it.)
>
> NO! What it on Alternative??? I will have to look for it. Uhhh... You're not trying to elbow me right out of the next vacation, are you???Yes, it was on Alternative. If you haven't found it yet, I'll send you the link.
> > Keep the faith,
> > Kara
>
> Ditto to you, my friend,
> Simus
Posted by Simus on September 5, 2004, at 20:06:48
In reply to Re: seasonal variability » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 16:27:35
> I'm going to go and tuber now. [tuber, v.i., to become a couch potato]
ROTFL!
Posted by Simus on September 5, 2004, at 20:22:16
In reply to Re: I've lost track......... » Simus, posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 17:00:28
> > > > > > The past two weeks I have been dizzy, anxious, very oily skin, hair loss, no weight gain/loss though...
>
> I think what Larry suggested about SAD makes a lot of sense. I was going to throw that out to you next myself.Today was the first day of depression since February (Wellbutrin). What a disappointment. Just when I was all set to NEVER have to deal with that again. Sigh...
> As an aside, I live in a section of LA (Brentwood) where a lot of stars live. Of course I'm in a dumpy apartment building and they're in mansions up in the hills, but I still run into them in town. You wouldn't believe who was walking in front of my complex as I drove into the driveway a couple of weeks ago? I was just a few feet from them and I nearly crashed my car when I saw them.You know, I'm sensing a mean streak here... LOL
> Or who I walked past once (he was going out and I was going in) when I went to the Whole Foods store down the street from me.
OK, now I'm certain of it!!! You better 'fess up, girl!
Simus
Posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 21:00:11
In reply to Kara - not the best day, posted by Simus on September 5, 2004, at 20:22:16
> > > > > > > The past two weeks I have been dizzy, anxious, very oily skin, hair loss, no weight gain/loss though...
> >
> > I think what Larry suggested about SAD makes a lot of sense. I was going to throw that out to you next myself.
>
> Today was the first day of depression since February (Wellbutrin). What a disappointment. Just when I was all set to NEVER have to deal with that again. Sigh...NEVER say NEVER! It's too dangerous. Everyone has bad days. Even people who don't need antidepressants. You're probably just reacting to the horrible couple of days you've had. (Make that horrible couple of weeks you've had. It's hard not to feel depressed when you feel so physically ill.)
> > As an aside, I live in a section of LA (Brentwood) where a lot of stars live. Of course I'm in a dumpy apartment building and they're in mansions up in the hills, but I still run into them in town. You wouldn't believe who was walking in front of my complex as I drove into the driveway a couple of weeks ago? I was just a few feet from them and I nearly crashed my car when I saw them.
>
> You know, I'm sensing a mean streak here... LOL
>
> > Or who I walked past once (he was going out and I was going in) when I went to the Whole Foods store down the street from me.
>
> OK, now I'm certain of it!!! You better 'fess up, girl!
>
> Simus
>I'll babble-mail you about the rest of it.
Posted by Simus on September 6, 2004, at 0:40:02
In reply to Re: Kara - not the best day » Simus, posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 21:00:11
> > Today was the first day of depression since February (Wellbutrin). What a disappointment. Just when I was all set to NEVER have to deal with that again. Sigh...
>
> NEVER say NEVER! It's too dangerous. Everyone has bad days. Even people who don't need antidepressants. You're probably just reacting to the horrible couple of days you've had. (Make that horrible couple of weeks you've had. It's hard not to feel depressed when you feel so physically ill.)You are so right, my friend! Why should I be the only one exempt from a "down" day once in a while??? Before all this doctors/meds stuff, I would have just had a good cry, a pint of chocolate ice cream, and moved on. But now, my initial (over)reaction is, "OH NO!!! It's starting ALL over AGAIN!"
Just a few minutes ago, it occurred to me that even the slightest fever always used to cause depression. So I took my temperature, and guess what??? Low-grade fever. I am very relieved that this is quite possibly the only reason for the depression today. But I am overwhelmed by a great sense of remorse that my answer may be so simple while so many others struggle to get a handle on something to help them. I hate mental illness of any kind, from any cause, and what it does to the lives of so many people. Anyhow... There's my $0.02 worth... Oh, by the way, you and Lar and the gang are in my prayers. =)
> > > As an aside, I live in a section of LA (Brentwood) where a lot of stars live. Of course I'm in a dumpy apartment building and they're in mansions up in the hills, but I still run into them in town. You wouldn't believe who was walking in front of my complex as I drove into the driveway a couple of weeks ago? I was just a few feet from them and I nearly crashed my car when I saw them.
> >
> > You know, I'm sensing a mean streak here... LOL
> >
> > > Or who I walked past once (he was going out and I was going in) when I went to the Whole Foods store down the street from me.
> >
> > OK, now I'm certain of it!!! You better 'fess up, girl!
> >
> > Simus
> >
>
> I'll babble-mail you about the rest of it.Wow!!! The one at the store was absolutely my favorite male actor when I was younger. He still probably is, but we don't see much of him anymore. Brilliant actor! Thanks for sharing, and keep me posted.
Hey, I understand Lar's apartment is in the movies too. Do you think he will be an actor next??? Oh yeah. He said he was applying for a government job. Soooo... Do you think it is for CIA or FBI??? Hmmmmmmmm...
Simus
Posted by Simus on September 6, 2004, at 1:23:07
In reply to Re: allergy testing » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 10:11:37
> > Honestly, I think there was only one thing missing: in one of Simus' posts about the kind of food sensitivity test she had done. You said that there were good tests for this and not so good ones. She mentioned RASP and either ELISA or ERISA (I think it was the former). The ELISA/ERISA one I believe is what I had years ago. That's the good one, isn't it?
>
> Food sensitivies/allergies are a huge conceptual quagmire. There is a lot of psuedoscience in there.
>
> RAST can be very useful. It is a test of IgE response to allergens. For that, it works beautifully, but.....
> a) it is most useful for inhallant allergens (e.g. pollens, spores)
> b) it has a strong negative predictive utility (i.e. no RAST response is a pretty good indication that the body is not sensitized (90% utility on negative responses))
> c) positive tests are merely suggestive. Only if a food history indicates a possible sensitivity, and the RAST is positive, should there be any clinical response (e.g. food elimination/rechallenge, or better yet double-blind food challenge (best done in the doctor's office, because if you have a serious response, it is an emergency)).
>
> ELISA is a test for IgG response. Everybody has IgG responses to food, and, in fact, IgG responses may be protective against IgE responses (which can be fatal). All formal allergy specialists (doctors with extra years of study in residency programs) dismiss ELISA as an unreliable measure, except when its results bolster the RAST, and food diaries.
>
> See: http://www.tldp.com/issue/174/IgG%20Food%20Allergy.html
>
> RAST itself is perhaps a "lazy man's" version of skin prick tests. But, even those can be unreliable, as most of the food extracts are not stable (they are perishable). Same goes for the RAST reagents. They are notoriously unstable. RAST *is* an excellent way to determine e.g. peanut, shellfish, wheat, etc. allergies, as most of the top allergens do have stable and reliable allergens to employ in the tests. It gets less reliable the more you move away from the most common allergens.
>
> Moreover, even a negative test (via RAST or skin-prick) does not guarantee the absence of allergy, or cross-reactivity. Peanut allergy can show up as an allergic response to licorice. An allergy to birch pollen can make you react to apple skins, but only when the offending pollen is sensitizing you (i.e. only in the spring). It's a very messy and illogical environment.
>
> The take-home message is that RAST (better) and ELISA (far less reliable) are starting points for investigations, not points from which conclusions can be reached.
>
> You may get a lot out of perusing this site:
> http://www.allergy-clinic.co.uk/food_allergy_testing.htm
>
> > P.S. How old are your two sons?
>
> Alexander is 12 (but his voice is changing, and he's already acting teenage, and he is almost as big as me). Thomas is 10, and even he is over five feet and 105 lbs. The food bills are already outrageous. Thank god I love to cook.
>
> LarWow, Lar. Thanks for all the info. That must have taken some time to put together! I didn't know any of that. I think my test was the "Lab C" in the first site you recommended. I guess I was just looking for a general screening tool to point out any definite "stay away from"s that could further stress my immune system. On their scale (0 - +4), I was interested in the +3s and +4s, and none showed up. I had three +2s and 29 +1s. I didn't get the "test result interpretation" booklet yet, nor have I spoken with the doctor yet (she mailed the results to me - gotta admire that at least). But between you and me, I am not planning on avoiding the 29 +1s (they include lettuce in that, for crying out loud). I will probably keep the +2s in the back of my mind, to watch how I react to them when I eat them. I haven't noticed a real problem with them before. Now my mother who got the same test the same day as I did, only had 8 foods on her list. But she got a +4 for brewer's yeast and a +3 for baker's yeast. She had tested positive with the skin test for yeasts in the past. Based on the two sets of tests, I think it would be wise if she avoided yeast completely. So like you said, it is a good place to start. I will pass all this info along...
Thanks again and God bless,
Simus
Posted by Simus on September 6, 2004, at 1:58:07
In reply to Re: pyroluria...symptom or disorder? » Simus, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 10:22:21
> > > I can't think of a single disorder where fish oils are contraindicated. If you can find such a reference, let me know, 'kay?
> >
> > It is because of the pyroluria condition. Dr. Edmond O`Flaherty has a very good Omega3 website http://www.omega3.20megsfree.com/whats_new.html where he included some of Dr. Walsh's work at the Pfeiffer clinic on pyrolurics. "We've had considerable success in using PUFA's (poly-unsaturated fatty acids) to treat persons with mental illness, but have found that omega-3 and omega-6 oils can cause clear worsening if given inappropriately. Pyrolurics need omega-6..... whereas most other patients need omega-3. There is a competition between o3 and o6 for zinc, B-6, and the delta 5,6 desaturases. The ideal would be to identify a person's biochemical individuality, with respect to PUFA's, then treat accordingly."
>
> I've only just begun to root out the truth within the theory, and it doesn't look good for Pfeiffer et al.
>
> There are correlations between a sub-population of the mentally ill and nutritional status and pyrroles in urine. Correlation can be explained in four possible ways. A leads to B; B leads to A (identical correlation in both these cases); coincidence; or, both A and B are caused by an unmeasured entity (or entities) C (and D, etc.).
>
> I am arriving at the conlusion that this latter case is the better explanation. Porphyria is a disorder of heme synthesis. Porphyrrins are essential protein-derived "shells" for the reactive metal ion in various molecules, such as chlorophyll, or hemoglobin. Porphyria has many variants, so it's hard to make generalizations, but one form is out-of-control synthesis of the pyrroles which are later turned into porphyrins. The excess pyrroles are dumped into urine by the kidneys. The pyrroles have numerous adverse effects, including psychosis and mood disturbance. Those adverse effects can be ameliorated by zinc and B6 supplements, in some cases. I believe that pyroluria (as a disorder) is an accidental re-discovery of porphyria, by someone who did not recognize its origin.
>
> LarLar,
I did check out porphyria, and I didn't really fall into any of the several sub-categories mentioned. However, it does make sense that "pyroluria" could possibly another sub-categories under porphyria. I understand that you look at things through a biochemist's eye. But when I was so sick, I looked at it and say, "Hey, that's me! That's my whole medical history right there! And the treatment makes me feel better!" So exactly what causes it and what it is named weren't nearly as important to me when I found it as the fact that I had finally found some relief from lifelong symptoms. The one thing that does concern me now is that since it really isn't recognized by most of the medical community (as anything at all), it won't be tested for in general and people who could be greatly helped with simple supplements like zinc and B6 just seem to get sicker and sicker... So I hope whatever it is gets more attention and research and finds a "home" somewhere in the medical journals so people like me don't have to go through what I did.
Once again, your knowledge astounds me, and I appreciate your continued help.
Simus
Posted by Simus on September 6, 2004, at 2:14:01
In reply to Re: Licorice » Simus, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 10:27:02
> > Kara and Larry,
> >
> > Well today around 6pm I FINALLY got up the courage to try the licorice after a couple of years. (I have become leary of taking anything since a few BAD reactions.) Well... At around 9pm I had a slice of pizza (late and not great supper). I wasn't feeling well, but I attributed it to waiting so long for supper. Within minutes I was running to the bathroom and my stomach violently returned my dinner. Then the diarrhea started. I was so miserable that I was contemplating going to the hospital. I called my family physician and told him I took licorice. He wasn't surprised with the reaction, and said that licorice is toxic to a lot of people. He told me to just ride it out for about 12-24 hours, and it will be out of my system and I will feel better (and to stick to liquids).
> >
> > I was just wondering if either of you have any thoughts on this.
> >
> > Simus
>
> Oh, most certainly, I do.
>
> Licorice is an accepted treatment for stomach upset. It is not known to cause it.
>
> Licorice can be toxic, if you take it for months on end. It causes pseudo-aldosteronism.
>
> I think there are two reasonable explanations for your experience.
> 1. Coincidence. You were going to be sick anyway.
> 2. Allergy. That is a possibility, but it would be exceedingly rare, and I'd have thought you'd know about that already, unless you seldom eat licorice.
>
> If you think you can bear the risk, try taking some on another day, with a meal.
>
> Challenge/rechallenge is an accepted way to consider coincidence as a possible explanation.
>
> LarLarry,
Wow! I was one sick puppy! I think that the only way I would ever try licorice again is possibly sipping on a tea on a full stomach. I know my medical doctor used the word "toxic", but an allergic reaction or sensitivity would probably be more believable. As far as history with it, I never did eat licorice candy. I hated the taste and the smell. So I wouldn't know if I was allergic to it. I don't even know if the candy is flavored with real licorice. It could be anise, or artifically flavored for all I know. Well, live and learn...
Simus
Posted by KaraS on September 6, 2004, at 2:38:35
In reply to Re: Kara - not the best day, posted by Simus on September 6, 2004, at 0:40:02
> > > Today was the first day of depression since February (Wellbutrin). What a disappointment. Just when I was all set to NEVER have to deal with that again. Sigh...
> >
> > NEVER say NEVER! It's too dangerous. Everyone has bad days. Even people who don't need antidepressants. You're probably just reacting to the horrible couple of days you've had. (Make that horrible couple of weeks you've had. It's hard not to feel depressed when you feel so physically ill.)
>
> You are so right, my friend! Why should I be the only one exempt from a "down" day once in a while??? Before all this doctors/meds stuff, I would have just had a good cry, a pint of chocolate ice cream, and moved on. But now, my initial (over)reaction is, "OH NO!!! It's starting ALL over AGAIN!"You're entitled. I think that's a natural reaction to experiencing depression again esp. after what you went through. I would feel the same way. I keep thinking of something Larry said once: "sometimes ya dip". I think that says it all.
> Just a few minutes ago, it occurred to me that even the slightest fever always used to cause depression. So I took my temperature, and guess what??? Low-grade fever. I am very relieved that this is quite possibly the only reason for the depression today. But I am overwhelmed by a great sense of remorse that my answer may be so simple while so many others struggle to get a handle on something to help them. I hate mental illness of any kind, from any cause, and what it does to the lives of so many people. Anyhow... There's my $0.02 worth... Oh, by the way, you and Lar and the gang are in my prayers. =)
I know. I've read some really heartbreaking posts on these boards and it just makes me so sad and angry that all of us have to go through such hardship.
Thanks for including me in your prayers. I don't pray much myself but if I did, I'd include you as well.
> > > > As an aside, I live in a section of LA (Brentwood) where a lot of stars live. Of course I'm in a dumpy apartment building and they're in mansions up in the hills, but I still run into them in town. You wouldn't believe who was walking in front of my complex as I drove into the driveway a couple of weeks ago? I was just a few feet from them and I nearly crashed my car when I saw them.
> > >
> > > You know, I'm sensing a mean streak here... LOL
> > >
> > > > Or who I walked past once (he was going out and I was going in) when I went to the Whole Foods store down the street from me.
> > >
> > > OK, now I'm certain of it!!! You better 'fess up, girl!
> > >
> > > Simus
> > >
> >
> > I'll babble-mail you about the rest of it.
>
> Wow!!! The one at the store was absolutely my favorite male actor when I was younger. He still probably is, but we don't see much of him anymore. Brilliant actor! Thanks for sharing, and keep me posted.Also ironically, all of the people I told about seeing him weren't terribly impressed because they had all met him or had something more than that to do with him themselves. It really burst my bubble. One of my friends is in catering and she has catered at some small parties he's been at and he has actually helped her to clear tables!!! So, needless to say, on top of being a fabulous actor, he's also a really good guy.
> Hey, I understand Lar's apartment is in the movies too. Do you think he will be an actor next??? Oh yeah. He said he was applying for a government job. Soooo... Do you think it is for CIA or FBI??? Hmmmmmmmm...
>
> SimusI think we need to find out what he looks like so we can look for him onscreen. Maybe he'll combine the two and be the next James Bond although they'll have to change the name slightly to "Larry Hoover, Scientist at Large".
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 6, 2004, at 6:33:26
In reply to Re: Kara - not the best day » Simus, posted by KaraS on September 6, 2004, at 2:38:35
> Maybe he'll combine the two and be the next James Bond although they'll have to change the name slightly to "Larry Hoover, Scientist at Large".
Quite preferable to "Larry Hoover, Large Scientist", I dare say.
Lar
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