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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jasmineneroli on September 6, 2004, at 23:04:30
Hi Everyone:
Apologies if this question has been asked before, I'm usually over at the meds board.
I have been taking calcium (combined carbonate and citrate) as part of good general supplement for the past month. A total of 500mg per day, plus whatever amount of calcium is included in Vit C Ester (1000mg), which I've taken for several years.
Over the last few weeks, I've had an increase in headaches, drowsiness, apathy and a mild depression. The headache and low energy is my predominant concern. I swear the calcium has caused this, because about a year ago, I started supplementing with calcium (separately, not as part of a supplement) and I had the same symptoms.
Is this possible? If so, how does calcium affect the brain, which neurotransmitters etc? I understand that calcium channels are part of many chemical relay systems, but is it possible that I'm overly sensitive to calcium and it causes these symptoms?
I take 100mg of amino-acid chelated magnesium at night and have done so for about 6 months with good results for sleep and help with my anxiety disorder. The new supplement I am taking also has magnesium (chelate and citrate)200mg. Do I need more magnesium with the dose of calcium I'm taking? Or should I reduce the calcium?
I had been thinking of increasing the magnesium anyway, to augment my low Celexa (10mg) and Clonazepam (.5mg) doses for GAD. What do you think? Appreciate any info you can give. Thanks a lot.
Jas
Posted by Mistermindmasta on September 7, 2004, at 0:21:43
In reply to Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Jasmineneroli on September 6, 2004, at 23:04:30
> Hi Everyone:
> Apologies if this question has been asked before, I'm usually over at the meds board.
> I have been taking calcium (combined carbonate and citrate) as part of good general supplement for the past month. A total of 500mg per day, plus whatever amount of calcium is included in Vit C Ester (1000mg), which I've taken for several years.
> Over the last few weeks, I've had an increase in headaches, drowsiness, apathy and a mild depression. The headache and low energy is my predominant concern. I swear the calcium has caused this, because about a year ago, I started supplementing with calcium (separately, not as part of a supplement) and I had the same symptoms.
> Is this possible? If so, how does calcium affect the brain, which neurotransmitters etc? I understand that calcium channels are part of many chemical relay systems, but is it possible that I'm overly sensitive to calcium and it causes these symptoms?
> I take 100mg of amino-acid chelated magnesium at night and have done so for about 6 months with good results for sleep and help with my anxiety disorder. The new supplement I am taking also has magnesium (chelate and citrate)200mg. Do I need more magnesium with the dose of calcium I'm taking? Or should I reduce the calcium?
> I had been thinking of increasing the magnesium anyway, to augment my low Celexa (10mg) and Clonazepam (.5mg) doses for GAD. What do you think? Appreciate any info you can give. Thanks a lot.
> JasApparently this is pretty common. See http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html for a very detailed look at this.
I personally have consistantly bad experience with calcium. Actually, some of the worst depressive feelings I've ever felt came from calcium, and I'm as sure as I can be that calcium was the true cause. I don't know exactly what's up with calcium or why normal ppl don't have problems but I know I am very sensitive to calcium, too. Try looking for a multimineral supplement without calcium... They don't exist as far as i know! That sucks, especially for ppl like us.
Posted by Optimist on September 7, 2004, at 12:31:17
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Mistermindmasta on September 7, 2004, at 0:21:43
I've experienced the same... calcium supplementation coinciding with or worsening depression.
One of the mechanisms of this may be the increase in melatonin that calcium supplementation causes. High melatonin may cause low serotonin which is similar to what people experience in winter depressions. They don't get enough light, melatonin increases, and depression results. Certain people are more suseptable than others.
Calcium isn't entirely bad though. I wouldn't go over 1000 mg per day. It's important to make sure magnesium is in a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio to calcium. Magnesium acts as an antagonist to calcium among other things.
Posted by Patient on September 7, 2004, at 13:19:52
In reply to Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Jasmineneroli on September 6, 2004, at 23:04:30
Hi,
There is no way to know for certain what is causing these symptoms for it could easily be from Celexa or/and clonazepam, which have both been known to cause apathy and fatigue which in itself can lead a depressed feeling, especially when these medicines are used for long periods. How long have you been taking Celexa and clonazepam?
I couldn't quite figure out how much total magnesium (300mg?) and total calcium (500mg?)you are taking from what you said, but as a general rule, calcium and magnesium supplementation are usually taken in a 2:1 or 2:1.5 ratio for proper assimilation. Calcium does have a calming effect, which is why it is best taken at bedtime. I take a product that contains 500mg calcium (as carbonate, citrate, aspartate, ascorbate, succinate, malate, histidinate, gluconate). Magnesium 250mg (as oxide citrate, aspartate ascorbate, fumarate, succinate, malate, histidinate, gluconate). Vitamin D (ergocalciferol) 100IU (vitaminshoppes product "Osteo-Support"). Vitamin D is needed for calcium utilisation. I take it at bedtime on occasion. Try taking the calcium at bedtime when you take magnesium to see if this helps. Since calcium can act as a tranquilizer, you can try substituting it for the clonazepam during the day. If you've been on Klonopin for a long time, it is wise to reduce slowly from this benzodiazepine to reduce any withdrawal effects.
Another option is to change brands, or to try kelp instead-contains both calcium and magnesium in a plant based form which is easily absorbed, or stop the supplements all together and after a week or two see how you feel.
Yes, calcium is needed in the transmission of nerve impulses, but as for targeting certain neurotransmitters, I don't know.
I don't want to appear to counter what you think is causing these symptoms-for the patient always knows his or her own day to day reactions, but I'd suggest keeping a drug/supplement journal as well-sometimes we take something, a reaction occurs and we think "Aha, that must be it", when it could just be a coincidence. It's happened to me many times. Could the symptoms you describe be from airborne allergies, for instance, since seasonal allergies can also cause these same symptoms? Just a thought.
Regards, Lisa aka "other" ; )
Posted by Jasmineneroli on September 7, 2004, at 20:12:14
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Mistermindmasta on September 7, 2004, at 0:21:43
> Apparently this is pretty common. See http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html for a very detailed look at this.
>
> I personally have consistantly bad experience with calcium. Actually, some of the worst depressive feelings I've ever felt came from calcium, and I'm as sure as I can be that calcium was the true cause. I don't know exactly what's up with calcium or why normal ppl don't have problems but I know I am very sensitive to calcium, too. Try looking for a multimineral supplement without calcium... They don't exist as far as i know! That sucks, especially for ppl like us.
>Hi MMM: Thanks for your response and the link, it was very interesting.I'm leaning towards the clacium intolerance theory, but I really don't know what to think right now.. I guess stopping the calcium for a while, then re-starting might be a more accurate test. I'm actually wondering if I have a magnesium deficiency!
Thanks again.
Jas
Posted by Jasmineneroli on September 7, 2004, at 20:23:21
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Ot, posted by Optimist on September 7, 2004, at 12:31:17
Hi Optimist: That melatonin connection may well be involved. Several years ago I tried taking Melatonin for insomnia. Result? Continual headaches for the three days I took it.
Although my main diagnosis is severe GAD, depression factors in at times, and there has always been a seasonal aspect to it. So perhaps melatonin levels (or my sensitivity to it) have an effect, in the past, independantly from calcium as well!!! As usual, research and symptom analysis always result in more questions!!!!!!! I'm probably going to stop the calcium for a week and see what happens.
I appreciate your input - thank you so much.
Jas
Posted by Jasmineneroli on September 7, 2004, at 21:01:24
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Patient on September 7, 2004, at 13:19:52
Hi there Lisa!
Do not think that "Other" was any way demeaning! :)
Yes, you are right about the calc/mag amounts (500mg Calc./300mg Mag.). However the Vit. C I take is Ester C, which is calcium ascorbate (1000mg per day). I don't know how much elemental calcium that gives me, as far as body absorption. I just know that the C is buffered with calcium for better utilization. Do you know how much *real* calcium that might be??
I have been on Clonazepam for 13 months. My dose has slowly tapered down from an origial of 1-2mg per day as needed. to the current .5mg, where I've been for about 2 months. I did feel some sedation and low energy for the first 2 weeks on Clonazepam, but that faded.The Celexa was added 6 weeks ago. Initially ( for about 16 days), I had many SE's from Celexa, including headache. The multi-supplement containing Calcium (500mg) was added about 5 weeks ago. The headache returned, along with the apathy, 2 weeks ago.
I've been on Celexa before. I had the exact same start-up SE's last time too. They subsided after about 2 weeks. However, about 8 months later, I did develop depression and sexual side effects. I discontinued after that. I don't know if I would get a return to the Celexa side effects so soon. My dose has not changed. But it is of course, possible. Clonazepam has been the only drug to help my GAD in a trial of about 8. The Celexa was added for the continual worrying thoughts (C-pam doesn't help this) and for upcoming potential seasonal depression ( see my post replying to Optimist). I may be blaming Calcium unfairly, so I'm going to try stopping it for a week and re-starting, with no other changes to cloud the issue. But Optimist raised some interesting points about calcium-melatonin, and I've been wondering too about magnesium deficiency. Too many questions!
You raise some good points (allergies may be involved, for instance) and I do try to keep a record of everything I do, eat, take. I haven't kept an accurate journal lately though, so I'm definitely gonna do that :) !
Thank you for your info and suggestions. If you have any other ideas, I'd love to hear them.
Take care
Jas
Posted by Patient on September 8, 2004, at 10:33:08
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others » Patient, posted by Jasmineneroli on September 7, 2004, at 21:01:24
Hi Jas,
No, I didn't think "others" was demeaning-I was being silly, and I know Larry is very learned in the subjects we ask on this board.
I have no idea about calcium amounts found in vitamin C preparations and have often wondered when they list them as sources of vitamin C. I do know that calcium helps with vitamin C absorption, is it vice versa or maybe a two way street-they both need each other, the usual case with supplements-they are needed in BALANCE.
I was looking into what the Optimist wrote about melatonin and calcium connection. I've only started to dig, but found two sites that may or may not be of any light on the subject:
http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/687
Cellular Mechanisms of Melatonin Action
PHYSIOLOGICAL REVIEWS Vol. 78 No. 3 July 1998, pp. 687-721
Copyright ©1998 by the American Physiological Society by JIRI VANECEKhttp://www.emfguru.org/Research/emf-emr/EMR-Reduces-Melatonin.htm
EMR Reduces Melatonin in Animals and People by Dr. Neil CherryI have read that magnesium acts as a calcium channel blocker-I suppose this is the antagonist effect?
If this is true, then I would think it better to take calcium at bedtime only. Does your calcium supplement include vitamin D? It is also important that it include this vitamin to help with assimilation-which is why I highly recommend a combo of calcium, magnesium, and vit. D taken together.
Yes, the experiment of stopping the calcium then restarting would be something that I would try, just to see, to try and pinpoint the problem. Let us know what happens.
As for the worrying thoughts and Celexa-as a supplementation to Celexa to combat or counter these thoughts is through cognitive therapy. I don't go to a cognitive therapist myself, but a friend sent me the book "Feeling Good". I was amazed after reading the first few pages of how one's thinking patterns are really what drive our emotions-worry, depression, etc. It is an eye opening book, and one I tended to avoid reading for it hit home too much, but so glad I've started. It's allowing me to stop and change the way I think of what I perceive, change my thinking habits. Just another suggestion.
Take care, Lisa
Posted by Patient on September 8, 2004, at 12:21:58
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Patient on September 8, 2004, at 10:33:08
Hi again,
I thought of a few things I wanted to include, hoping I not going down the slippery slope of tangents or confusion.
I found the following at http://www.healthscout.com/ency/1/478/main.html
Though the article specifically refers to coronary heart disease, calcium channel blockers are also being used to treat migraines, so I thought maybe there is a connection between calcium and heachaches. Since magnesium acts as a calcium channel blocker, I would be curious if taking magnesium along with the calcium would counter any headache.
"Health Encyclopedia - Diseases and
ConditionsCalcium Channel Blockers
Definition of Calcium Channel Blockers
Calcium channel blockers, also called calcium antagonists, are a newer
category of medications which are used to treat heart disease and
hypertension. They can slow the heart rate and relax blood vessels and they
work by diminishing the flow of calcium between cells.Description of Calcium Channel Blockers
Many patients with hypertension have benefited from calcium channel
blockers. They are often prescribed for patients with coronary artery disease
and are also used for heart rhythm abnormalities and hypertension.These drugs include nifedipine (Procardia, Adalat), diltiazem (Cardizem,
Dilacor), verapamil (Calan, Verelan, Isoptin), nicardipine (Cardene),
amlodipine (Norvasc), felodipine (Plendil), isradipine (DynaCirc), and several
newer agents.The drugs attach to the surface membrane of the muscles in the artery wall
and prevent calcium from entering. Without calcium, the muscles relax and
the arteries dilate.The heartbeat is controlled by tiny electrical impulses, which explains why
doctors use pacemakers to regulate heartbeat.Calcium plays a key role in regulating the heart's response to these electrical
signals. It flows between the heart cells and surrounding fluid through a sort of
chemical revolving door - the calcium channel. The more calcium that gets
through the door before the electrical signal comes, the more strongly the
heart contracts and the harder it works.Calcium channel blockers, like verapamil and its cousins, do not quite "lock"
the revolving door, but they significantly slow it down. This eases the load on
a damaged heart and, for many patients, improves heart functioning.For those who suffer from angina, calcium channel blockers have proved to
be among the most effective medications ever discovered. They help the
heart to work with less effort and, at the same time, relax the coronary
arteries, improving the supply of oxygen-enriched blood of the heart itself. The
result is almost as if the drug told the heart to sit back, relax, and take a few
deep breaths."I also wanted to add another suggestion: if you still continue to get headaches after restarting the calcium, then try taking vitamin B 6 along with it and see what happens. As I understand it, vit. B6 is involved in the metabolism of calcium, as well as magnesium and selenium. Just curious if this will help-my gut instinct tells me it will.
Take care, Lisa
Posted by tealady on September 11, 2004, at 17:45:57
In reply to Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Jasmineneroli on September 6, 2004, at 23:04:30
> Hi Everyone:
>
> I have been taking calcium (combined carbonate and citrate) as part of good general supplement for the past month. A total of 500mg per day, plus whatever amount of calcium is included in Vit C Ester (1000mg), which I've taken for several years.
> Over the last few weeks, I've had an increase in headaches, drowsiness, apathy and a mild depression. The headache and low energy is my predominant concern. I swear the calcium has caused this, because about a year ago, I started supplementing with calcium (separately, not as part of a supplement) and I had the same symptoms.
> Is this possible? If so, how does calcium affect the brain, which neurotransmitters etc? I understand that calcium channels are part of many chemical relay systems, but is it possible that I'm overly sensitive to calcium and it causes these symptoms?
> I take 100mg of amino-acid chelated magnesium at night and have done so for about 6 months with good results for sleep and help with my anxiety disorder. The new supplement I am taking also has magnesium (chelate and citrate)200mg. Do I need more magnesium with the dose of calcium I'm taking? Or should I reduce the calcium?
> I had been thinking of increasing the magnesium anyway, to augment my low Celexa (10mg) and Clonazepam (.5mg) doses for GAD. What do you think? Appreciate any info you can give. Thanks a lot.
> JasHi Jas, Quick possible answer...try getting magnesium and calcium in a 1:1 ratio. Some folk actually go better with just magnesium but for most somewhere between 1:1 and 2:1 works best.
You are probably getting More than enough calcium from your calcium ascorbate..I don't have any at present to look at to find out how much calcium would be in it..it probably has elemental calcium listed amongst your ingredient breakdown..?
Have a look at this post of mine
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030828/msgs/255832.htmlYour symptoms are similar to those of a mild hypothyroid state..doesn't mean you are ..just possibly implies that the large amount of calcium carbonate you are taking (the only one study I previously knew of that was done on calcium used calcium carbonate and but it does kinda backup the idea of avoiding that form in particular for you. Maybe the carbonate form is worse, noone really knows I suspect)
Guess I'm trying to say the calcium appears to be making your metabolism function in a similar way.
It's especially noticeable for those on thyroid hormone replacement meds as their bodies don't just auto pilot up the amount of thyroid hormones their body produces to balance out any possible effects of the calcium.
I'd expect those who may be borderline hypo would also notice the effects of calcium, but otherwise(without the calcium supps) be fine.
Calcium carbonate is actually used by some people (me included) to help counteract excess thyroid hormone levels at times.
(gardengirl..remember my comment on your calcium intake being lucky when you went a bit too high in T3..this is why)Not sure if this is what is going on with you..but it is one explanation that fits.
Best, JanPS.
Instead of calcium ascorbate you could try this one ..
buy ascorbic acid powder (pure form) and magnesium carbonate powder( get from a chemist in a jar)..mix a fraction of a teaspoon of ascorbic acid (according to amounts of packet) with a spoon or so of magnesium carbonate in a glass of water ....it fizzes (like Berocca B if you have those over there)..The fizzing is the CO2 bubbling off...you are left with
magnesium ascorbate dissolved in water..so you get the magnesium and the VitC. It's one of the things I do (recipe measurements always were a pinch of this and a handful of that with me<g>)
Posted by Jasmineneroli on September 13, 2004, at 0:38:39
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Patient on September 8, 2004, at 12:21:58
Hi Lisa, Sorry for the delay in responding.
I had read about the calcium/cardiac research findings before and do think there is a connection too.
As to your your suggestions: Vit D. - Yes D was part of the multi-supplement. B6. - I take P5P, the co-enzyme form of B6 in the morning, but will try taking it at night now with the magnesium, and add the calcium then too, if/when I re-start it.
I realized I aso take a form of calcium with my D-Pantothenic Acid as well, the other day!!! So, when I factor in the Ester C, I was probably in calcium excess!!
After dropping the calcium multi, almost a week ago, I no longer have the low energy/apathy feeling. However, I do have a slight, residual headache, that hangs around for part of most days (usually upon waking, and again late afternoon). I'm not medicating for it most of the time. It is much reduced from a week ago. I'm still taking the Ester C, so I might stop that too and see what happens.
I've got a feeling that my Calcium/Magnesium ratio was out of whack and that Celexa is also playing a part in the headaches!!!
I will check out the book you refer too. My Pdoc has always told me that CBT is absolutely useless for GAD ppl because it gives them something else to worry about it!!!!
Thanks for your interest and suggestions...it's always helpful to get feedback from others.
Regards,
Jas
Posted by Jasmineneroli on September 13, 2004, at 1:24:21
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others » Jasmineneroli, posted by tealady on September 11, 2004, at 17:45:57
Hey Jan:
I didn't know that the carbonate form had such a bad record!! That could well be my problem.
I've often thought I'm borderline hypothyroid, by symptoms, but testing doesn't indicate this. Of course, it's well known that testing may not pick up on a *fluctuating* thyroid. So it is possible that the calcium has aggravated the situation.
Since I've noticed a mood/energy improvement without the calcium supplement, I'm inclined not to re-start it again any time soon. However, as I noted to Patient, the headache is still lingering, in a much milder form. Funnily enough....it is EXACTLY where you state you have yours (centre forehead <between eyes, especially> and sinus area). I was beginning to think it might be a sinus problem after all! Aagh!, I just don't know, but it's pretty annoying.
Since it has reduced, with the elimination of one calcium supplement, I'm considering dropping the Ester C 1000mg, to see if they headache goes completely. My brand does not indicate how much elemental calcium it contains.Your idea of concocting magnesium ascorbate is a good one..if I can find the magnesium powder. Seems a trifle fiddly though!
I also noted that my D-pantothenic Acid (B5)is another form of calcium too! (Calcium Pantothenate). I didn't realize just how many forms of calcium there were.
I still have not ruled out Celexa as the culprit (or a contributor) either.
Thanks for your input Jan, there's so much to consider, as always :)
Take care,
Jas
Posted by raybakes on September 22, 2004, at 7:04:19
In reply to Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Jasmineneroli on September 6, 2004, at 23:04:30
Hi, saw your post about your concerns with calcium... Not sure if you know but the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate uses calcium to upregulate neuronal cell activity via it's NMDA receptor. Magnesium and zinc can balance the receptor. Clonazepam works on the GABA receptor, that opposes glutamate. Excess calcium in a cell causes excitotoxicity.
Here's an abstract on excitotoxicity....
Posted by Jasmineneroli on September 22, 2004, at 18:04:38
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others » Jasmineneroli, posted by raybakes on September 22, 2004, at 7:04:19
Hi Raybakes!
Thanks so much for that info, and the link.
No, I didn't know about Glutamate vs GABA, and calcium excess causing excitotoxicity. It makes huge sense to me, from my own experiences!
What also makes a lot of sense is how the oxidative process sets the ball rolling in the brain. I recently had my anti-oxidant levels tested, and they were very low!! So this fact no doubt compounds my problem!! I am taking a variety of anti-oxidants now, so perhaps with a dual approach of no/low calcium supplementation, (but magnesium though) and a large increase in anti-oxidant consumption, I can really help myself. Maybe to the point where I can cease my prescription drugs.
Thanks again for your input!!!
Take care.
Jas
Posted by raybakes on September 23, 2004, at 4:22:51
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Jasmineneroli on September 22, 2004, at 18:04:38
Hi, glad you found the info interesting!....came across this abstract too, as my 'thing' at the moment is inflammation and was interested to find that the inflammatory cytokine interleukin 1 also causes calcium influx into a neuron through the NMDA receptor.
So finding suitable anti-inflammatory nutrients seems important, and checking if infection or toxicity might be involved. At the moment, there's quite a bit of interest in the superoxide and peroxynitrite radical, and the PARP molecule to do with brain disorders - so anti-oxidants specific to dealing with them might be useful.
Ray
Posted by JLx on September 24, 2004, at 17:00:48
In reply to Re: Calcium causing depress./apathy etc.?Larry, Others, posted by Jasmineneroli on September 22, 2004, at 18:04:38
Hi Jas,
I've had clear problems with calcium in the past and felt really great when I first started taking magnesium instead (and eliminating calcium as much as possible from my diet). I think the 2:1 ratio or even the 1:1 ratio is too much for some people, especially if they've been on calcium overload for a long time (as I was, which incidentally also gave me a calcium kidney stone). And what about calcified arteries? I think we've been sold a bill of goods for way too long about calcium and osteoporosis, especially. If I took the recommended 1200 mg of calcium for my age, I would be a raving maniac. ;)
I did an experiment once where I took 250 mg of calcium. I was shortly feeling teary, irritable, overemotional, depressed and just plain out of whack. I then took 400 mg of magnesium and within 2 hours I felt better.
It's also important to make sure you aren't taking a contraindicated kind of magnesium, such as mg aspartate or mg glutamate. Mg oxide also is not recommended because it's not well absorbed. I like mg malate, mg glycinate and I'm about to try mg taurate, because I notice it's only $7.17 a bottle at Amazon (as opposed to $11.95 elsewhere!). Who knew Amazon had supplements??
Good luck, it sounds like you're on the right track of knowing what your body and brain need. :)
JL
> I am taking a variety of anti-oxidants now, so perhaps with a dual approach of no/low calcium supplementation, (but magnesium though) and a large increase in anti-oxidant consumption, I can really help myself. Maybe to the point where I can cease my prescription drugs.
This is the end of the thread.
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