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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cache-monkey on December 7, 2004, at 15:49:22
Hi folks,
I have issues with anxiety/depression, possibly cyclothymic, and definitely seasonal affective disorder. I had a really good response to Celexa (+Wellbutrin), but couldn't deal with the weight gain/sexual SEs. I am considering trying some sort of supplementation of serotonin using precursors [*], and have a few questions.
I'm debating between 5-HTP and L-tryptophan. I'm relatively new to P-Babble/Alternative, but from what I can tell, most people prefer tryptophan to 5-HTP. Can anyone tell me why this is the case?
Also, I read something about poop-out with 5-HTP about a month after starting the supplement. Does anyone have a source for this? Also, is there a similar sort of poop-out with tryptophan?
Any input is greatly appreciated.
Best,
cache-monkey[*] I might also use l-tyrosine to do the same for NE/DA.
Posted by MKB on December 7, 2004, at 19:45:49
In reply to L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions ..., posted by cache-monkey on December 7, 2004, at 15:49:22
Please, please, please read the explanation at www.healthrecovery.com about why tryptophan is better than 5HTP. These people know what they are doing. It sounds like you have the types of problems that would be helped by tryptophan. However, it is not a good idea to take it with antidepressants unless you are under a doctor's supervision. If you decide to try tryptophan, you need to give it time to work, just like you would an antidepressant. Personally, I think you will be able to tell a difference in less than a week. And don't feel like you have to start with high doses. Both my son and I have noticed a big difference from taking only 500 mg a night. I have had depression for at least 10 years and this is the best thing I've taken. My son has had tremendous difficulty sleeping ever since he was a child. He says he has noticed a big difference in his ability to sleep well since he has started tryptophan. He also has always been short-tempered and says he definitely feels calmer now that he is taking it.
5HTP is not as good as pharmaceutical tryptophan. It ends up circulating in your blood, but not always going to your brain, where you need it. This is also explained on the website www.healthrecovery.com.
Posted by cache-monkey on December 7, 2004, at 23:34:26
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions ... » cache-monkey, posted by MKB on December 7, 2004, at 19:45:49
Hi,
Thanks for the link. I read what they have to say about the difference between 5-HTP and tryptophan. But, I do wonder whether they might be playing up the risks (and playing down the benefits) of 5-HTP a little since they are also trying to sell tryptophan on their website...
Also, a follow-up question for you: how long have you been on tryptophan? (I'm wondering about whether there's a potential for poop-out.)
Best,
cache-monkey> Please, please, please read the explanation at www.healthrecovery.com about why tryptophan is better than 5HTP. These people know what they are doing. It sounds like you have the types of problems that would be helped by tryptophan. However, it is not a good idea to take it with antidepressants unless you are under a doctor's supervision. If you decide to try tryptophan, you need to give it time to work, just like you would an antidepressant. Personally, I think you will be able to tell a difference in less than a week. And don't feel like you have to start with high doses. Both my son and I have noticed a big difference from taking only 500 mg a night. I have had depression for at least 10 years and this is the best thing I've taken. My son has had tremendous difficulty sleeping ever since he was a child. He says he has noticed a big difference in his ability to sleep well since he has started tryptophan. He also has always been short-tempered and says he definitely feels calmer now that he is taking it.
>
> 5HTP is not as good as pharmaceutical tryptophan. It ends up circulating in your blood, but not always going to your brain, where you need it. This is also explained on the website www.healthrecovery.com.
Posted by MKB on December 8, 2004, at 0:24:55
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions ... » MKB, posted by cache-monkey on December 7, 2004, at 23:34:26
I first took tryptophan about 25 years ago. It was a licensed Christian counselor that first suggested I take it. He told me to take 500 mg a night, so that is what I did with good results. I stopped taking it for reasons I don't remember . . Then it was banned because of a contaminated batch made in Japan. In the meantime, I developed major depression and was prescribed antidepressants. It was very upsetting to me that tryptophan was not available. Over the last 10 years I've taken Zoloft, Paxil, Serzone, Wellbutrin, Depakote, and Effexor with less than satisfactory results. When I found out a couple of months ago from Larry Hoover on this site that Tryptophan was again available, I followed up on it. Larry said he takes veterinary tryptophan, which is safe. However, I found the website www.healthrecovery.com and ordered from them. Making and selling the real Tryptophan is much more complicated than making 5HTP. That is probably one reason you don't find many companies selling it. I think www.healthrecovery.com sells Tryptophan because they know it's better and safer than 5HTP. They also use it in their clinic as they treat patients. Are you aware that many psychiatrists prescribe Tryptophan for depression? I believe it is still closely regulated in Canada and in the UK. Psychiatrists prescribe it because it works very well for many people who are depressed due to serotonin depletion. I hope Larry jumps in here and explains this a little better. Anyway, I've been on it now for about a month and I plan to continue. I don't see how it can "poop out" since it is a natural amino acid your body needs. Sorry I'm not better able to explain it, but I'm learning.
Posted by cache-monkey on December 8, 2004, at 18:13:03
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions .Lar? » cache-monkey, posted by MKB on December 8, 2004, at 0:24:55
<< Larry said he takes veterinary tryptophan, which is safe. However, I found the website www.healthrecovery.com and ordered from them.>>
I've seen the veterinary stuff, too. It looks like it's much cheaper than the price on healthrecovery.com. I'm a little sketched out by the vet stuff, but Larry (Hoover, I assume) seems to know what he's talking about.
<< Making and selling the real Tryptophan is much more complicated than making 5HTP. That is probably one reason you don't find many companies selling it. I think www.healthrecovery.com sells Tryptophan because they know it's better and safer than 5HTP. They also use it in their clinic as they treat patients. Are you aware that many psychiatrists prescribe Tryptophan for depression? I believe it is still closely regulated in Canada and in the UK. >>
Yeah, that actually makes sense. I guess healthrecovery could more easily sell 5-HTP, but chose to go with the tryptophan.
<< I hope Larry jumps in here and explains this a little better. Anyway, I've been on it now for about a month and I plan to continue. I don't see how it can "poop out" since it is a natural amino acid your body needs. Sorry I'm not better able to explain it, but I'm learning. >>
Hmm. I read about poop-out with 5-HTP on this board somewhere, but maybe that's different since it's not an amino acid. I guess the worry is that the serotonin transporter becomes more active in response to the increased serotonin flow and starts sucking more back up after a while. (I.e. for some people depression might be caused by an overactive reuptake system...)
<< Sorry I'm not better able to explain it, but I'm learning. >>
No worries; I'm learning, as well. It would also be nice to hear Larry's take, but your input is definitely appreciated.
Best,
cache-monkey
Posted by MKB on December 8, 2004, at 18:46:40
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions Larry » MKB, posted by cache-monkey on December 8, 2004, at 18:13:03
Regarding "cheaper"...I haven't found it for less than at healthrecovery.com, where the price is $25 for 60 500mg capsules. Do you mind telling me where you saw it cheaper? And was it pharmaceutical grade? I'd certainly like to find a better deal if there is one. Thanks:)
Posted by GeishaGirl on December 9, 2004, at 6:51:09
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions Larry » MKB, posted by cache-monkey on December 8, 2004, at 18:13:03
Hi cache-monkey,
I was wondering if you remember where on this board (or any other places) you read info on possible 5HTP poop-out. My companion takes 5HTP and Lexapro. He has been feeling like the Lexapro has pooped-out on him and I'm now wondering if it could be happening with the 5HTP, as well. Thanx.
Geisha Girl
Posted by cache-monkey on December 10, 2004, at 0:19:56
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions Larry » cache-monkey, posted by GeishaGirl on December 9, 2004, at 6:51:09
Hey GG,
I read about the poop-out on the babble/alternative board, actually. You can probably find it using the search...
HTH,
cache-monkey> Hi cache-monkey,
>
> I was wondering if you remember where on this board (or any other places) you read info on possible 5HTP poop-out. My companion takes 5HTP and Lexapro. He has been feeling like the Lexapro has pooped-out on him and I'm now wondering if it could be happening with the 5HTP, as well. Thanx.
>
> Geisha Girl
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 7:34:59
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions Larry » MKB, posted by cache-monkey on December 8, 2004, at 18:13:03
> << Larry said he takes veterinary tryptophan, which is safe. However, I found the website www.healthrecovery.com and ordered from them.>>
>
> I've seen the veterinary stuff, too. It looks like it's much cheaper than the price on healthrecovery.com. I'm a little sketched out by the vet stuff, but Larry (Hoover, I assume) seems to know what he's talking about.Oh, it's much cheaper, indeed. Having hung around the horsey set now and again, over the years, I just cannot believe that anybody would give anything but the best to their horseflesh.
You did check out the cost here? http://www.buygpdirect.com/gpefeed.htm
> << Making and selling the real Tryptophan is much more complicated than making 5HTP. That is probably one reason you don't find many companies selling it.
I think there's more to it than that. The FDA regulation for sale of tryptophan to humans makes the vendor liable for the quality of the product. That is unique, among all supplements. I think that companies are using that to gouge the public on the price.
> I think www.healthrecovery.com sells Tryptophan because they know it's better and safer than 5HTP. They also use it in their clinic as they treat patients. Are you aware that many psychiatrists prescribe Tryptophan for depression? I believe it is still closely regulated in Canada and in the UK. >>
> Yeah, that actually makes sense. I guess healthrecovery could more easily sell 5-HTP, but chose to go with the tryptophan.
I think it's wiser to reinforce your body's natural processes, than to intervene with a reactive intermediate. In the synthesis of serotonin from tryptophan, which occurs only in cells utilizing serotonin as a neurotransmitter, the half-life of 5-HTP is measure in microseconds. It's not floating around in the cell, or in the blood.
> << I hope Larry jumps in here and explains this a little better. Anyway, I've been on it now for about a month and I plan to continue. I don't see how it can "poop out" since it is a natural amino acid your body needs. Sorry I'm not better able to explain it, but I'm learning. >>
>
> Hmm. I read about poop-out with 5-HTP on this board somewhere, but maybe that's different since it's not an amino acid.Uh, yes it is an amino acid. It's the next step, the decarboxylation to serotonin, that makes it no longer an amino acid.
> I guess the worry is that the serotonin transporter becomes more active in response to the increased serotonin flow and starts sucking more back up after a while. (I.e. for some people depression might be caused by an overactive reuptake system...)
There are many theories, but no way to know. The only evidence we have, or can have, at the present time, is evidence of what works or what does not. We cannot know why. Yet.
> << Sorry I'm not better able to explain it, but I'm learning. >>
>
> No worries; I'm learning, as well. It would also be nice to hear Larry's take, but your input is definitely appreciated.
>
> Best,
> cache-monkeySorry for going AWOL. I was attending to other business. I presented a seminar last week on landlord/tenant law to an poverty advocacy group. And I've been working on gathering evidence of the invasion of Babble by a blocked poster.
Lar
Posted by MKB on December 10, 2004, at 20:07:23
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions Larry » cache-monkey, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 7:34:59
Larry, how do you take that powder form? In juice or in a teaspoon??? And how does the potency compare to a 500mg capsule of pharmaceutical grade tryptophan?
Regarding price gouging: I see that the veterinary version is much, much cheaper, but as far as capsules go, healthrecovery.com still has the best price I've seen. I have found pharmaceutical grade Tryptophan capsules on other sites at almost double that amount for the same quantity and strength.
When you said yes, it is an amino acid, were you talking about Tryptophan, 5HTP, or both? You lost me somewhere in the discussion. (Sorry, I'm not scientific at all.)Are you agreeing that it is preferable to use Tryptophan rather than 5HTP?
For those who have not yet read the information about tryptophan at www.healthrecovery.com, I encourage you to find it and read it. They do have a thorough discussion of Tryptophan, much better than the many other sites I've visited. You can view it when you find the product ordering information.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 20:43:33
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by MKB on December 10, 2004, at 20:07:23
> Larry, how do you take that powder form? In juice or in a teaspoon??? And how does the potency compare to a 500mg capsule of pharmaceutical grade tryptophan?
I put the powder into the blender with a bunch o' other stuff, is how I usually do it. That's because you just about can't stir it enough to make it mix with anything.
I bought some empty capsules and a capsule filler, and I'm going to fill some up. I haven't been taking it in the p.m., and I really want to try that timing. Capsules would be ideal for that.
500 mg tryptophan is 500 mg of tryptophan. The only thing is, I have to estimate the mass by measuring volume. That's the only downside to the big old tub o' tryptophan I have. It comes with a scoop, and each scoop is 1200 mg. I've got to figure out how much I get into a capsule, and then I'll know the dose in capsule measurements. This is routine stuff for a chemist.
> Regarding price gouging: I see that the veterinary version is much, much cheaper, but as far as capsules go, healthrecovery.com still has the best price I've seen. I have found pharmaceutical grade Tryptophan capsules on other sites at almost double that amount for the same quantity and strength.
Makes you wonder how one can do it cheaply, whereas the others can't, eh?
> When you said yes, it is an amino acid, were you talking about Tryptophan, 5HTP, or both?
Both are. You won't find 5-HTP in a pork chop, though, whereas you will find tryptophan in it.
An amino acid is any molecule that has an amine functional group, some sort of body of diverse structure, and an acid functional group.
Through the processing of an amino acid into a neurotransmitter, the amine part remains unchanged. Other changes might take place before this, but one step in the conversion of an amino acid to a monoamine neurotransmitter is the loss of the acid group. At that point, it is no longer an amino acid, due to there being no acid part present any longer.
> You lost me somewhere in the discussion. (Sorry, I'm not scientific at all.)
I hope that little explanation helped. I could draw it, and you'd understand. I can guarantee that. It's the words that don't carry the idea well. Or my words...I'm whacked. I just drove through a snow storm.
> Are you agreeing that it is preferable to use Tryptophan rather than 5HTP?
Yes. But some may benefit from the combination, too. I wouldn't rule that out.
Lar
Posted by MKB on December 10, 2004, at 20:57:00
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions Larry » MKB, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 20:43:33
Posted by cache-monkey on December 11, 2004, at 14:39:09
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions Larry » MKB, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 20:43:33
Thanks, Larry, for all of the information. It's great that you are so willing to share the (quite vast, I think) knowledge you've accumulated so freely. It's very helpful.
Best,
cache-monkey
Posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 19:37:00
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by cache-monkey on December 11, 2004, at 14:39:09
"The reasons for the potential risks of 5-HT were brought to our attention by Steven B Harris, M.D. He explained that: 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HT) is one step closer to serotonin than tryptophan. The Sequence is as follows.
Tryptophan > 5-Hydroxytryptophan > Serotonin
Based on the above metabolic sequence it would appear desirable to use 5-HT instead of tryptophan since 5-HT more readily converts to serotonin. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is often deficient in the brains of depressed people. Boosting serotonin can alleviate depression in some people and reduce carbohydrate cravings in others, thus inducing weight loss. Here's why 5-HT will not work for most Americans, and could be lethal to some people: The blood-brain barrier does not allow significant absorption of serotonin from the blood. The brain does have a large neutral amino acid pump that freely allows tryptophan and 5-HT into the bran for conversion into serotonin. The process by which 5-H is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HT is absorbed by the brain, than blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain..."
The article continues at www.healthrecovery.com in the product information for Tryptophan.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 12, 2004, at 22:27:42
In reply to Re: L-tryptophan or 5-HTP; a few questions Larry, posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 19:37:00
> "The reasons for the potential risks of 5-HT were brought to our attention by Steven B Harris, M.D. He explained that: 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HT) is one step closer to serotonin than tryptophan. The Sequence is as follows.
>
> Tryptophan > 5-Hydroxytryptophan > Serotonin
>
> Based on the above metabolic sequence it would appear desirable to use 5-HT instead of tryptophan since 5-HT more readily converts to serotonin. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is often deficient in the brains of depressed people. Boosting serotonin can alleviate depression in some people and reduce carbohydrate cravings in others, thus inducing weight loss. Here's why 5-HT will not work for most Americans, and could be lethal to some people: The blood-brain barrier does not allow significant absorption of serotonin from the blood. The brain does have a large neutral amino acid pump that freely allows tryptophan and 5-HT into the bran for conversion into serotonin. The process by which 5-H is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HT is absorbed by the brain, than blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain..."
>
> The article continues at www.healthrecovery.com in the product information for Tryptophan.You know, I used to trust everything that came out of Steve Harris' mouth. Then, after a while, I got to thinking. If 5-HTP was dangerous, there would be adverse event reports in the literature, there would be people with serious heart valve overgrowth, there would be people stroking out..... I repeated the Steve Harris party line on 5-HTP for a good while, but I no longer am so concerned about 5-HTP being decarboxylated in peripheral tissues. The people in whom that happens tend to drop the 5-HTP due to unpleasant physical feelings, long before serious injury can result. I think it's a reasonable warning to make, but I don't think it's a serious risk issue.
Lar
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