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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cache-monkey on January 5, 2005, at 20:42:03
Hey all,
I do think I want to go back to something serotonegeric for my anxeity/self-confidence/depression issues. I'm thinking about Tryptophan and have a couple of questions.
1) Long-term efficacy
I guess the extra Tryptophan kicks into action your serotonin generators, a large chunk of which lie idle most of the time. Does your body get used to the extra Tryptophan and then revert to laziness in production again? (Or maybe the reuptake pumps kick in higher?) If so, I could imagine your body getting used to or "learn its way around" (as linkadge put it) the extra Tryp. Oh, and is there the worry of down-regulation of the DA system?I guess this is my worry, so I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who's used it for a while and gotten good results. Or have people found it necessary to stop it and restart it every so often? Or maybe some Tyrosine to balance the Tryptophan?
2) Sexual side effects?
If the sexual SEs from SSRIs are purely based on excess serotonin, I wonder if the same holds for Tryptophan. (Alternatively, I could imagine the SSRIs doing other more complicated bonding and stimulation to the various 5-HT subreceptors. Or that the Tryptophan becomes serotonin where it's most needed. I which case there wouldn't be as much of a worry of sexual dysfunction on Tryp.)Anyway, for those with experience on the Tryp, have there been libido issues, or (for males) problems with erection and orgasm?
Lots of questions.
Thanks for any input,
cache-monkey
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 6, 2005, at 11:46:36
In reply to Anyone use Tryptophan long term? (also sex SEs?), posted by cache-monkey on January 5, 2005, at 20:42:03
> Hey all,
>
> I do think I want to go back to something serotonegeric for my anxeity/self-confidence/depression issues. I'm thinking about Tryptophan and have a couple of questions.Just a general comment. Tryptophan is added to swine feed, for example, to keep the animals calmer in a stressful confinement environment. They play more with tryptophan supplementation.
> 1) Long-term efficacy
> I guess the extra Tryptophan kicks into action your serotonin generators, a large chunk of which lie idle most of the time.Your serotonin-producing enzymes may have excess unused capacity. There are a number of possible ways that enzyme might be underutilized, though, so it's possibly a mistake to think that just supplying tryptophan will automatically maximize serotonin production. All I mean is, if tryptophan doesn't seem to help your depression, there are still tryptophan-related strategies to consider.
> Does your body get used to the extra Tryptophan and then revert to laziness in production again?
Probably not. Particularly not if you don't take a tryptophan supp every day. Your body is a very efficient machine. If it can get by with less "machinery", it will do so. If you constantly supply so much tryptophan that the enzyme activity saturates (hits its maximum) you could conceivably cause your body to just make less of the enzyme (assuming some sort of feedback regulation). If you leave it "hungry" once in a while, that's not going to happen.
> (Or maybe the reuptake pumps kick in higher?)
Possibly. But who knows?
> If so, I could imagine your body getting used to or "learn its way around" (as linkadge put it) the extra Tryp. Oh, and is there the worry of down-regulation of the DA system?
Other things will change if serotonin availability changes. You just have to get to that point and see what happens. I don't believe that there have ever been decent clinical studies of tryptophan, with the collection and statistical analysis of outcomes. Therefore, making any sort of prediction makes me very uncomfortable.
> I guess this is my worry, so I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who's used it for a while and gotten good results. Or have people found it necessary to stop it and restart it every so often? Or maybe some Tyrosine to balance the Tryptophan?
I do that with a lot of my non-essential supps. I take them in pulses, and I let my intuition guide me. I sort of get a feel for it, like I start thinking.....hmmm, I feel like I need some lecithin, some phospholipids. So last night I bought some lecithin granules, and they're in today's blender mix.
> 2) Sexual side effects?
> If the sexual SEs from SSRIs are purely based on excess serotonin, I wonder if the same holds for Tryptophan.They're not caused by excess serotonin. SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction, it is believed, by acting at the serotonin receptor type 2a, and probably by changing the function of alpha-adrenoceptors.
Really, SSRIs do not cause excess serotonin. That is a total distortion of their effects.
> (Alternatively, I could imagine the SSRIs doing other more complicated bonding and stimulation to the various 5-HT subreceptors.
You anticipated the correct answer. Bravo!
> Or that the Tryptophan becomes serotonin where it's most needed.
Tryptophan promotes the availability of serotonin where it's most needed. Serotonin doesn't just flood the brain. It is released quite selectively, and only on the appropriate cues.
> I which case there wouldn't be as much of a worry of sexual dysfunction on Tryp.)
There probably isn't a risk, but anything is possible.
> Anyway, for those with experience on the Tryp, have there been libido issues, or (for males) problems with erection and orgasm?
Not in this man's body.
> Lots of questions.
>
> Thanks for any input,
> cache-monkeyWelcome.
Lar
Posted by ESB on January 6, 2005, at 12:35:53
In reply to Anyone use Tryptophan long term? (also sex SEs?), posted by cache-monkey on January 5, 2005, at 20:42:03
Hi,
I have used tryptophan in the past for about 6 months straigt. I didn't have any sexual side effects or most of the typical side effects that I had with those wretched SSRIs. The only side effects that I had were panic attacks upon initially starting it (same thing happened w/ SSRIs) and I could never sleep more than 6 hours for the entire 6 months. Also, it exacerbated the muscle twitches that those wonderful SSRIs caused in me a little, but not too much. As a side, I still have the twitches, even after 2 years of not being on an SSRI, taking plenty of magnesium, and also taking klonopin. Not a big fan of SSRIs to say the least! I obviously have a paradoxical reaction to even a small ammount of increase in serotonin, so YMMV.
Good luck!
-ESB
Posted by cache-monkey on January 7, 2005, at 23:47:43
In reply to Re: Anyone use Tryptophan long term? (also sex SEs?) » cache-monkey, posted by Larry Hoover on January 6, 2005, at 11:46:36
> > I do think I want to go back to something serotonegeric for my anxeity/self-confidence/depression issues. I'm thinking about Tryptophan and have a couple of questions.
>
> Just a general comment. Tryptophan is added to swine feed, for example, to keep the animals calmer in a stressful confinement environment. They play more with tryptophan supplementation.
>I'd definitely like to play more. Or do more. Rather than be too inhibited and self-critical to accomplish much.
>
> > 1) Long-term efficacy
> > I guess the extra Tryptophan kicks into action your serotonin generators, a large chunk of which lie idle most of the time.
>
> Your serotonin-producing enzymes may have excess unused capacity. There are a number of possible ways that enzyme might be underutilized, though, so it's possibly a mistake to think that just supplying tryptophan will automatically maximize serotonin production. All I mean is, if tryptophan doesn't seem to help your depression, there are still tryptophan-related strategies to consider.
>I'm not sure I follow. My sense (and correct me if I'm wrong) was that there's some sort of pump that turns tryptophan to serotonin. (I guess this is an enzyme?) I think I read somewhere that much of the pump lies idle, particularly if there's not a lot of tryptophan in your system. Even with a normal amount of tryptophan, I could imagine an underactive pump, in which case extra tryptophan might induce extra serotonin production...
Also, what do you mean by "tryptophan-related strategies"?
> > Does your body get used to the extra Tryptophan and then revert to laziness in production again?
>
> Probably not. Particularly not if you don't take a tryptophan supp every day. Your body is a very efficient machine. If it can get by with less "machinery", it will do so. If you constantly supply so much tryptophan that the enzyme activity saturates (hits its maximum) you could conceivably cause your body to just make less of the enzyme (assuming some sort of feedback regulation). If you leave it "hungry" once in a while, that's not going to happen.
>That makes sense. So, maybe take tryp more sporadically, after an initial continuous trial to look for an antidepressant/anxiolytic response.
[...]
> > I guess this is my worry, so I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who's used it for a while and gotten good results. Or have people found it necessary to stop it and restart it every so often? Or maybe some Tyrosine to balance the Tryptophan?
>
> I do that with a lot of my non-essential supps. I take them in pulses, and I let my intuition guide me. I sort of get a feel for it, like I start thinking.....hmmm, I feel like I need some lecithin, some phospholipids. So last night I bought some lecithin granules, and they're in today's blender mix.
>I'm actually starting to sort of do the same with my supps. But I'm worried to follow my intution too much, for some reason. (Inhibition.) Also, I guess I'm concerned that with too much experimentation it's hard to sort out what's working and what isn't. I do think I'll get there eventually. (And all the information you've posted here, Larry, certainly helps with that!)
>
> > 2) Sexual side effects?
> > If the sexual SEs from SSRIs are purely based on excess serotonin, I wonder if the same holds for Tryptophan.
>
> They're not caused by excess serotonin. SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction, it is believed, by acting at the serotonin receptor type 2a, and probably by changing the function of alpha-adrenoceptors.
>I thought there were also issues with the 2c receptor, as well as down-regulation of the DA system (possibly through the 2a receptor).
> Really, SSRIs do not cause excess serotonin. That is a total distortion of their effects.
>But don't SSRIs lead to extra serotonin floating around between the synapses due to reuptake inhibition? I though that's the idea with tryptophan, too, except accomplished through increased production.
> > Or that the Tryptophan becomes serotonin where it's most needed.
>
> Tryptophan promotes the availability of serotonin where it's most needed. Serotonin doesn't just flood the brain. It is released quite selectively, and only on the appropriate cues.
>Hoping so!
> > Anyway, for those with experience on the Tryp, have there been libido issues, or (for males) problems with erection and orgasm?
>
> Not in this man's body.
>Good to hear.
Best,
cache-monkey
Posted by clipper40 on March 3, 2008, at 2:51:01
In reply to Re: Anyone use Tryptophan long term? (also sex SEs?) » cache-monkey, posted by Larry Hoover on January 6, 2005, at 11:46:36
>"...SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction, it is believed, by acting at the serotonin receptor type 2a, and probably by changing the function of alpha-adrenoceptors.
Doesn't the diminishment (is that a word?) of dopamine or it's effects because of increased availability of serotonin have something to do with the SSRIs lowering the sex drive and function as well?
This is the end of the thread.
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