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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by danali on September 15, 2005, at 12:19:45
Hi,
I have heard about d-serine as having a good effect on symptoms of schizophrenia. I think it works on receptors of glycine.
Does anyone know about any possible longterm effects? Is it dangerous to play around with amino acids, since an excess of one may deplete others?Thank you in advance,
Dana.
Posted by Declan on September 15, 2005, at 19:46:20
In reply to D- Serine, posted by danali on September 15, 2005, at 12:19:45
D-serine has something to do with phosphatidylserine? You could always take a broad spectrum amino acid complex.
Declan
Posted by JLx on September 15, 2005, at 20:00:17
In reply to D- Serine, posted by danali on September 15, 2005, at 12:19:45
Hi Dana,
I'd never heard of this so I went looking:
http://www.schizophrenia.com/glycinetreat.htm
http://www.schizophrenia.com/research/javitt.htm
http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Concern/Schizophrenia.htm (Health Notes)
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/gly_0127.shtml
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Thought_Disorders/schizo/articles/schizophrenia_brain_4.asp
Looks like glycine and d-serine are both NMDA receptor agonists, but about d-serine, the first site above says:
"However, D-serine has been reported to cause renal tubular necrosis in rodents; thus, it is still under toxicology investigation by the FDA."
The interview, third link above, with the researcher says,
"The main differences between glycine and d-serine are how well they enter the brain, and how much is known about their safety. Glycine has many uses in both the food and medical industry and has been found to be without appreciable toxicity even at quite high dose. Nevertheless, it enters the brain very poorly so must be given in tablespoon amounts to overcome the blood brain barrier. It is also used in normal metabolism and treated like any other amino acid. Patients who take 60 grams of glycine per day (the most widely used dose) are essentially doubling their amino acid intake. [snip]
D-serine gets into the brain much more readily than glycine. It has been found to be effective at doses as low as 2 grams per day, although whether this is the most effective dose remains to be determined. Ultimately, d-serine would be expected to replace glycine as a treatment for schizophrenia. However, d-serine causes kidney damage in rats, although not as far as can be determined in other species. For this reason, FDA has not yet approved d-serine for clinical use in this country. At present, therefore, it is not an option, although it is hoped that this will change soon."
I don't see where you can even buy it, just L-serine. I can't understand the science here enough to tell if the body would convert L-serine to d-serine or not.
Sounds like glycine may be the safer way to go if the only drawback is how much you have to take.
I've taken glycine and not had problems with it, though not at the 60 gm a day dose. More like 1 gram. I suppose it could get kind of sickening to have to take 60 times that. It does have a kind of sweet taste. I've wondered if you could even use it as a sweetener, like in making lemonade or something.
I first read about glycine in Joan Matthews Larson's book, "Depression Free Naturally". She said it's relaxing to the back, which is why I take it. I didn't know it was also a NMDA receptor agonist.
To answer your question finally, to my limited knowledge it's not dangerous per se to play around with amino acids. The effects are quite immediate, for one thing, so you can tell if something doesn't agree and just stop it. But it's true that there are pitfalls too, such as not taking tyrosine and phenylalanine at the same time. Generally, an amino should be taken by itself and not with dietary protein so it doesn't have to compete with other aminos if you want the full effect.
This one might be worth running by a physician, especially if it's to be combined with any medication. Or, perhaps you can get some more feedback on this or other boards.
JL
Posted by Declan on September 15, 2005, at 20:09:35
In reply to Re: D- Serine, glycine, schizophrenia » danali, posted by JLx on September 15, 2005, at 20:00:17
Is this the idea that excitotoxicity is a factor in the progression of schizophrenia.
Declan
Posted by Mistermindmasta on September 15, 2005, at 21:48:31
In reply to Re: D- Serine, glycine, schizophrenia, posted by Declan on September 15, 2005, at 20:09:35
> Is this the idea that excitotoxicity is a factor in the progression of schizophrenia.
> DeclanIt seems that excitotoxicity exists in almost all mental disorders, with ADHD being one disorder you might just be born with... aka, the frontal lobe chemistry might have been messed up since birth, not necessary by cortisol, for example, as is the case in depression.
Posted by Declan on September 16, 2005, at 2:13:59
In reply to Re: D- Serine, glycine, schizophrenia, posted by Mistermindmasta on September 15, 2005, at 21:48:31
So that means NMDA antagonists like glycine and magnesium? Is that what memantine does too?
Declan
Posted by danali on September 16, 2005, at 6:18:35
In reply to Re: D- Serine, glycine, schizophrenia » danali, posted by JLx on September 15, 2005, at 20:00:17
JL- Thanks a lot for all that info!
Dana.
Posted by danali on September 16, 2005, at 6:22:37
In reply to Re: D- Serine, glycine, schizophrenia, posted by Declan on September 15, 2005, at 20:09:35
Hi,
Perhaps I didn't get this right, but after reading a little about d serine my impression was that it acts along with glutamate as an excitotoxin, since both are needed to "turn on" the receptors. Am I way off?
Dana.
Posted by Declan on September 17, 2005, at 20:48:40
In reply to Re: D- Serine, glycine, schizophrenia » Declan, posted by danali on September 16, 2005, at 6:22:37
No I dunno if you're right or wrong, but there was a TV program here a year ago or so and it was about PTSD and reported the use of something like Serine (I think it had that in the name, some derivative perhaps) for the overcoming of traumatic memories, specific fears and so on.
Declan
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