![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by Declan on September 27, 2005, at 1:22:32
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by vitaqueen on September 26, 2005, at 16:55:11
Do go to those protocols on the Life Extension website. Just put in homocysteine in the search box and you will be taken to it all. I've just been there, the doses were interesting.
Declan
Posted by gromit on September 27, 2005, at 3:33:33
In reply to AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by vitaqueen on September 26, 2005, at 11:22:30
> In February, my Cholesterol was 487 (HDL 51)after stopping Crestor & Zetia because I don't want to take these meds. I went on 2400 mg/day of Red Yeast Rice in March, and in June brought it down to 318 (HDL 51). Then I added 600 mg/day of no-flush niacin, but my Cholesterol now is up to 360 (HDL 50).
I don't think "no-flush" niacin has any effect on cholesterol, you need the regular stuff. Taking an aspirin with it helps with the flushing for me. Other things to try, policosanol, plant stenols/sterols like Benecol (sp?) spread from the market. I take something called Cholest-Off, I think that's it, it's the same kind of thing. Garlic, CoQ10, memory is failing me. Search the archives, there have been discussions about this, I know folks gave me good advice and there have been other threads too.
> My doctor wants to put me back on Crestor (5 mg) and I really don't want to. And I'm equally, if not more, concerned about the homocysteine. Can anybody help?????? Could it be what I'm eating? My diet is very low in saturated fats and absolutely NO trans fats.
No idea about homocysteine, sorry. One of the things I was told is a diet like Atkins can lower your lipids dramatically. After some reading it sure sounds convincing but I can't shake the feeling I'm being sold a 3 legged horse and told what an advantage that is.
Can I ask why you don't want to go back on statin drugs? Unpleasant side effects? My doctor would like me to start one.
Rick
Posted by Declan on September 27, 2005, at 9:39:53
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by gromit on September 27, 2005, at 3:33:33
The statins are supposed to deplete coenzyme Q10 I think, and so supplementation with that is advisable if you're taking them.
Declan
Posted by vitaqueen on September 27, 2005, at 10:18:35
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by Declan on September 27, 2005, at 1:22:32
That Life Extensions site was invaluable. Thanks so much. I guess I'm not taking enough -- Wow, and I thought I was taking plenty. Printed out most of the articles -- got a LOT of reading to do. Appreciate everyone's help.
Posted by vitaqueen on September 27, 2005, at 10:41:57
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by gromit on September 27, 2005, at 3:33:33
> I don't think "no-flush" niacin has any effect on cholesterol, you need the regular stuff. Taking an aspirin with it helps with the flushing for me. Other things to try, policosanol, plant stenols/sterols like Benecol (sp?) spread from the market. I take something called Cholest-Off, I think that's it, it's the same kind of thing. Garlic, CoQ10, memory is failing me. Search the archives, there have been discussions about this, I know folks gave me good advice and there have been other threads too.I'm beginning to agree that the no-flush niacin isn't doing a thing. Seems I did better without it and just the red yeast rice. I tried policosonol in the past (by itself) with little or no change, but I never tried it in conjunction with red yeast rice. I'm thinking of doing that. I do take garlic and also 100 mg/day of a hydrosoluable CoQ10. I use to take 200/day but cut back because things were getting so expensive each month -- perhaps I should consider increasing this again???
I use Earth Balance spread but heard about Benecol. Almost bought it but noticed in the ingredients a partially-hydrogenated oil; that seemed awfully counterproductive, so I didn't buy it, but I have heard about the benefits of plant sterols.
> No idea about homocysteine, sorry. One of the things I was told is a diet like Atkins can lower your lipids dramatically. After some reading it sure sounds convincing but I can't shake the feeling I'm being sold a 3 legged horse and told what an advantage that is.
>
> Can I ask why you don't want to go back on statin drugs? Unpleasant side effects? My doctor would like me to start one.
>
Agreed on the Atkins -- I can't even begin to imagine eating all those high-fat foods. The South Beach seems a bit more sensible, yet on the same principle.I have been on statins in the past and always experienced muscle pain. I couldn't exercise because of it, so that was bothering me. Plus, I just don't believe in pharmaceuticals anymore. I feel there's got to be a more safe and natural way. God invented the earth, not test tubes, if you get my drift. It just seems every drug you take eventually leads to another one down the road you have to take to overcome the side effects of the previous one. Plus, Crestor, the one I was on the the time, was getting some bad publicity.
Thanks again, Rick.
Donna
Posted by vitaqueen on September 27, 2005, at 10:43:38
In reply to CoQ10 and statins » gromit, posted by Declan on September 27, 2005, at 9:39:53
> The statins are supposed to deplete coenzyme Q10 I think, and so supplementation with that is advisable if you're taking them.
> DeclanYes I have been on 100 mg of a hydrosoluable CoQ10 (for a year now). Was on 200/day but I cut down -- should I increase it again?
Thanks again.
Donna
Posted by Declan on September 27, 2005, at 11:05:41
In reply to Re: CoQ10 and statins » Declan, posted by vitaqueen on September 27, 2005, at 10:43:38
No idea, Donna, but 100mg is a reasonable dose. Highest I've ever heard of is 600mg/d to slow the development of parkinsons disease.
Declan
Posted by vitaqueen on September 27, 2005, at 14:39:51
In reply to Re: CoQ10 and statins » vitaqueen, posted by Declan on September 27, 2005, at 11:05:41
Anyone familiar with the pros and cons and effects of EDTA products? Found this website -- www.cardiorenew.com -- while reading about homocysteine and pentoxfylline (Trental).
Posted by gromit on September 27, 2005, at 17:01:21
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by vitaqueen on September 27, 2005, at 10:41:57
> I'm beginning to agree that the no-flush niacin isn't doing a thing. Seems I did better without it and just the red yeast rice. I tried policosonol in the past (by itself) with little or no change, but I never tried it in conjunction with red yeast rice. I'm thinking of doing that. I do take garlic and also 100 mg/day of a hydrosoluable CoQ10. I use to take 200/day but cut back because things were getting so expensive each month -- perhaps I should consider increasing this again???
I don't know if you should increase it or not, it seems like a reasonable dose. I think policosonol is pretty harmless, I started taking almost all of this stuff. Why not use all the bullets you have? Even if each of them only has a small effect perhaps the sum will be large enough make a real difference. The only problem I've had is flushing from niacin, I'm 99.99% sure that you need to take plain old niacin, everything I've read says that anyway.
> I use Earth Balance spread but heard about Benecol. Almost bought it but noticed in the ingredients a partially-hydrogenated oil; that seemed awfully counterproductive, so I didn't buy it, but I have heard about the benefits of plant sterols.Actually I've never tried Benecol, it's just the only name I could remember. Possibly I didn't buy it because it contained some bad fats, if you look around you can find a competing product that doesn't. The problem I have is the amount you need to eat with every meal, I just can't stomach that much buttery type stuff. So I used it as a healthier alternative not as a treatment if that makes sense. I use Cholest-Off as a treatment, it's plant sterols too, I get it at Costco but I just saw some at WalMart.
> I have been on statins in the past and always experienced muscle pain. I couldn't exercise because of it, so that was bothering me. Plus, I just don't believe in pharmaceuticals anymore. I feel there's got to be a more safe and natural way. God invented the earth, not test tubes, if you get my drift. It just seems every drug you take eventually leads to another one down the road you have to take to overcome the side effects of the previous one. Plus, Crestor, the one I was on the the time, was getting some bad publicity.Arghh, the last thing I need is more pain. I'm with you, never want to take a drug without first seeing what natural things can do. I'm not absolutely anti-drug but think it's worth trying other things first, if it's not enough maybe a combination will allow you to take a much smaller dose of the drugs and still have good results.
Rick
Posted by Declan on September 27, 2005, at 21:35:30
In reply to AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by vitaqueen on September 26, 2005, at 11:22:30
It's the ratio of HDL to LDL (or vice versa?) that's important, isn't it?
Declan
Posted by neuroman on September 28, 2005, at 11:39:58
In reply to AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by vitaqueen on September 26, 2005, at 11:22:30
Hi,
I'm pretty much in the same position that you are. I think Declan and gromit are right on the money with their advice about checking hormone levels and adding P5P. I would also suggest adding B12 to the mix. I take a 2000mcg sublingual tablet. Getting an occassional B12 shot might not be a bad idea either. Are you on any AD medications? My cholesterol started to shoot up after I had been on serotonergic medications for a couple of years. At the same time my testosterone levels dropped quite a bit. I have no doubt they're interconnected. I think part of the problem with taking some of these meds is that they interfere with/use up a lot of the liver enzymes that are supposed to be doing other stuff, like converting cholesterol into hormones. So...
-keep going with the TMG, folic acid, P5P, B12 (as has been mentioned these are available in anti-homocysteine formulations, I take one called Homocysteine Shield from Country Life, but I also take them as individual supplements)
-have your hormone levels checked
-try to boost the HDL with omega-3's
-take some liver friendly supplements like milk thistle and lipoic acid
-maybe throw in some L-carnitine for general cardiovascular support
I've started doing all of the above. Hopefully we'll both turn things around. Good luck. :-)
Paul
Posted by ed_uk on September 28, 2005, at 15:58:53
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » vitaqueen, posted by Declan on September 26, 2005, at 14:48:20
Vitamin B and folic acid do not reduce risk of MI and stroke
A combination of high-dose vitamin B6 and folic acid may increase the risk of myocardial infarction and stroke in MI survivors, according to the Norwegian Vitamin Trial (NORVIT) reported this week at the European Society of Cardiology annual congress. The findings effectively end the hope that taking a folic-acid/B-vitamin combination to lower homocysteine levels might prevent cardiovascular events.
NORVIT randomised 3,749 post-MI patients, aged 30 to 84, to four treatment options: a combination of folic acid and vitamin B6; folic acid; vitamin B6; or placebo. Doses were 0.8mg daily for folic acid and 40mg daily for vitamin B6. (In addition, 0.4mg of vitamin B12 was given with the folic acid dose.)
Results showed that the combination of vitamin B6 and folic acid, as well as folic acid alone, reduced homocysteine levels by 28 per cent. However, the supplements failed to reduce cardiovascular risk. After 3.5 years of follow-up, the risk of stroke and MI was 18 per cent in the placebo group, with a similar risk in those given folic acid alone and in those given vitamin B6 alone. The risk was higher in the combination group, with 23 per cent of patients suffering a fatal or non-fatal stroke or MI, representing a statistically significant absolute increase of 5 per cent compared with the other treatment groups (P=0.029).
Results also showed a trend toward an increased incidence in cancer among patients taking high-dose folic acid.
Posted by neuroman on September 28, 2005, at 22:32:00
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by ed_uk on September 28, 2005, at 15:58:53
Hi Ed,
Methinks something is rotten in the state of Norway, and it isn't the herring. I wouldn't get too hung up on this one study. For one thing it only involved people who already had strokes and MIs. Also, the study did show that the supplements, at very mild doses I might add, did significantly reduce homocysteine levels. Since I'm sure we all agree that elevated homocysteine levels are a bad thing, that's pretty much all I need to know. Besides, one can do a quick search on Pubmed and come up with many more studies that tout the benefits of vitamin B cofactor supplementation. Here are a few that I just found:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16169836&query_hl=1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15951553&query_hl=1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15939064&query_hl=1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15871861&query_hl=1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15871858&query_hl=1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15871857&query_hl=1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15776726&query_hl=1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15694902&query_hl=1I've already had an ultrasound that showed occlusion of my left carotid artery. I'm definitely sticking with the B vitamins. Regardless of what the Norwegians say. :-)
Paul
Posted by neuroman on September 28, 2005, at 22:36:56
In reply to AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by vitaqueen on September 26, 2005, at 11:22:30
Hi,
I meant to ask, are you taking any anti-epilepsy meds? They can reduce folate levels and raise homocysteine. Also, are you supplementing with methionine? This too can raise homocysteine levels. Just checking.
Paul
Posted by vitaqueen on September 29, 2005, at 12:44:33
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » vitaqueen, posted by neuroman on September 28, 2005, at 11:39:58
> I'm pretty much in the same position that you are. I think Declan and gromit are right on the money with their advice about checking hormone levels and adding P5P. I would also suggest adding B12 to the mix. I take a 2000mcg sublingual tablet. Getting an occassional B12 shot might not be a bad idea either.
As I may have mentioned before, I do take a B-Complex daily, co-factors are 100mg each of B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, PABA, Choline & Inositol, 400mcg Folic Acid (I add an additional 1600mcg daily), and 100mcg of B-12 and Biotin. Should I add more of something? Should I be taking these individually? That could get very expensive. I already take about 20-26 supplements/day.
>Are you on any AD medications? My cholesterol started to shoot up after I had been on serotonergic medications for a couple of years. At the same time my testosterone levels dropped quite a bit. I have no doubt they're interconnected. I think part of the problem with taking some of these meds is that they interfere with/use up a lot of the liver enzymes that are supposed to be doing other stuff, like converting cholesterol into hormones. So...
I do not take any prescribed meds anymore. Even stopped Prevacid -- now on an occasional bromelain and aloe juice and all is well.
> -keep going with the TMG, folic acid, P5P, B12 (as has been mentioned these are available in anti-homocysteine formulations, I take one called Homocysteine Shield from Country Life, but I also take them as individual supplements)
What dosages do you take per day? Maybe I'm just not taking enough.
>
> -have your hormone levels checkedYes I plan to do this.
>
> -try to boost the HDL with omega-3'sI already take daily an Omega-3 which consists of 1250 mg (EPA 650, DHA 500, Others 100), plus I also take Ultimate Oil which consists of 600mg alpha linoleic acid, 450mg linoleic acid, 270mg oleic acid, 200mg lecithin, and 30mg gamma linoleic acid. Is this still not enough? My HDL never really goes below, or much above, 50.
> -take some liver friendly supplements like milk thistle and lipoic acidI do, I take 200mg Milk Thistle, and 50mg of alpha lipoic acid every other day. Not to mention 400IU Vitamin E, 10,000IU carotenoids (Vitamin A, Lycopene, Lutein), 200mg Selenium, 200mg grape seed extract, 30mg zinc, NAC 600mg --all every other day. On top of my dailies of 1000mg TMG, 500mg garlic, 2400mg red yeast rice, 1280 no flush niacin, 2000mg Vitamin C, and the aforemention B-Complex and omega oils.
I don't know much more of what to do. I would love to find a reputable alternative doctor who knows all about these vitamins and supplements, and perhaps can tell me what is or is not working for me. I'm so confused with all these supplements that I don't know which ones to continue, which to stop, which to cut back on -- and it's all so damn expensive.
> -maybe throw in some L-carnitine for general cardiovascular supportThis is probably the ONLY thing I don't take.
>
> I've started doing all of the above. Hopefully we'll both turn things around. Good luck. :-)I certainly hope so because November will mark a year I started all this and I'm disappointed I'm not further along. As a side note, I had triple bypass surgery in March of '03 and I don't want those damn arteries filling up again. My last stress test this past March thankfully was normal.
Thanks again -- here's to us both.
Posted by vitaqueen on September 29, 2005, at 12:55:11
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » vitaqueen, posted by neuroman on September 28, 2005, at 22:36:56
> I meant to ask, are you taking any anti-epilepsy meds? They can reduce folate levels and raise homocysteine. Also, are you supplementing with methionine? This too can raise homocysteine levels. Just checking.
No, Paul, I don't take any medications at all. Not even aspirin -- thank goodness I rarely ever get headaches <smile>Donna
Posted by neuroman on September 29, 2005, at 13:48:20
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » neuroman, posted by vitaqueen on September 29, 2005, at 12:44:33
Hi,
You seem to be doing everything right. The only thing I might do is switch from the no flush niacin to a small amount (100mg) of regular niacin. I may be wrong but I think most of the benefit is in the flush. I actually like getting the flush. I take a lot of the same stuff that you do. A multi, a B complex, flax oil, C & E, milk thistle, ALA, grape seed extract, and I take the homocysteine group (TMG, folic acid, P5P, B12) seperately. I also take a men's health specific multi. I wouldn't go any higher than what you're already taking except for the B12. Also, you may be getting enough selenium and zinc from the multi and may not need to take them seperately.
> I would love to find a reputable alternative doctor who knows all about these vitamins and supplements, and perhaps can tell me what is or is not working for me.
Wouldn't we all. Needless to say, they're hard to find. A naturopathic doctor N.D. or a good nutritionist might be helpful. Have you checked with your hospital or talked to your doctor about this?
> I certainly hope so because November will mark a year I started all this and I'm disappointed I'm not further along. As a side note, I had triple bypass surgery in March of '03 and I don't want those damn arteries filling up again. My last stress test this past March thankfully was normal.
It's good to know that your last stress test was normal. You have to keep in mind that most of us on this site are just regular people looking for answers. Most of what I know I learned from reading books such as "The Encyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements" by Michael T. Murray N.D. and searching the web for abstracts. You certainly shouldn't substitute any advice you receive here for that of a professional. You've already had a triple bypass. If your doctor/cardiologist think you should be on cholesterol lowering medications and the natural stuff isn't working, I would follow their advice and take the med. Of course do the hormonal workup first. You could always continue to take the supplements. Assuming there are no adverse interactions with the medication of course.
I know it's a no brainer but don't forget moderate exercise (with your doctors consent) and stress reduction.
Here's to the both of us indeed,
Paul
Posted by neuroman on September 29, 2005, at 13:59:30
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » neuroman, posted by vitaqueen on September 29, 2005, at 12:55:11
> thank goodness I rarely ever get headaches
Same here. :-)
Just as a side note, how are you at dealing with stress? I've never handled stress well. I'm an internalizer and I've always tended to have an over the top fight or flight response (that is over-activation of the autonomic nervous system). I really wish that I learned some relaxation techniques like meditation at a young age. I think I could have avoided a lot of the physical problems I'm having now. I think I'll go and order a mediation CD on Amazon.com now. :-)
Keep the faith,
Paul
Posted by vitaqueen on September 30, 2005, at 13:06:52
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » vitaqueen, posted by neuroman on September 29, 2005, at 13:48:20
> You seem to be doing everything right. The only thing I might do is switch from the no flush niacin to a small amount (100mg) of regular niacin. I may be wrong but I think most of the benefit is in the flush.
OK, I'll give that a try. I don't need a prescription for that do I?
>I actually like getting the flush. I take a lot of the same stuff that you do. A multi, a B complex, flax oil, C & E, milk thistle, ALA, grape seed extract, and I take the homocysteine group (TMG, folic acid, P5P, B12) seperately. I also take a men's health specific multi. I wouldn't go any higher than what you're already taking except for the B12. Also, you may be getting enough selenium and zinc from the multi and may not need to take them seperately.
I don't take a particular "multi" so the zinc and selenium is the only source. How much additional P5P [that is B6, correct?] and B12 do you suggest?
>
> > I would love to find a reputable alternative doctor who knows all about these vitamins and supplements, and perhaps can tell me what is or is not working for me.
>
> Wouldn't we all. Needless to say, they're hard to find. A naturopathic doctor N.D. or a good nutritionist might be helpful. Have you checked with your hospital or talked to your doctor about this?My doctor is so "traditional" that it's hard to keep him from sneering when I bring up alternative medicine. Maybe my acupuncturist can help come to think of it.
>
> It's good to know that your last stress test was normal. You have to keep in mind that most of us on this site are just regular people looking for answers. Most of what I know I learned from reading books such as "The Encyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements" by Michael T. Murray N.D. and searching the web for abstracts. You certainly shouldn't substitute any advice you receive here for that of a professional. You've already had a triple bypass. If your doctor/cardiologist think you should be on cholesterol lowering medications and the natural stuff isn't working, I would follow their advice and take the med. Of course do the hormonal workup first. You could always continue to take the supplements. Assuming there are no adverse interactions with the medication of course.No, I know. I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket so to speak concerning my health. My doctor wants me to try Vytorin now, which is supposed to be a combination of Zocor and Zetia. Maybe I'll consider a low dose if all else fails. I still think carbohydrates play a big part in this -- but I don't have enough outside information on this yet.
> I know it's a no brainer but don't forget moderate exercise (with your doctors consent) and stress reduction.I try to work out at the gym 3xweek, mostly cardio stuff -- but some days I just can't get going. Stress reduction is a big thing; I must do better at that as well, ESPECIALLY in traffic.
Ciao,
Donna
Posted by JLx on October 2, 2005, at 15:59:23
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » neuroman, posted by vitaqueen on September 29, 2005, at 12:44:33
Some food for thought on some of the pages on Dr. Lam.com, which could use more proofreading, I notice. Lam is an anti-aging specialist apparently. Not all, but most, of what he has to say seems pretty solid to me, albeit alternative/natural. I like how he has things highlighted so you can skim.
I know you said you've had high cholesterol since childhood, but since it's getting more resistant to your efforts, maybe there will be some info of value there.
One interesting thing was his comment about hypothyroidism, which we can be at increased risk for as we get older:
"As many as 10 percent of 98 million Americans with high cholesterol and high LDL ("bad") cholesterol may not know that their cholesterol is high due to undiagnosed thyroid problem. Older women with sub clinical or under-active hypothyroidism was shown to be twice as likely as women without this condition to have heart attacks." http://www.drlam.com/physician_support/hypothyroidism.cfm#4
This was an interesting article:
New Markers of Cardiovascular Health http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/1999-No5-NewMarkersofCardiovasularDisease.cfm
Have you been tested for lipoprotein(a)?
I'm going to get some ascorbyl palmitate, as it seems a good idea in general to have a fat soluble Vit C. Interesting that what he recommends, per Linus Pauling protocol for reducing cardiovascular disease, includes most of what he also recommends for adrenal insufficiency, namely proline, lysine, Vit C, and pantothenic acid.
In his article about cholesterol, http://www.lammd.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/Cholesterol.cfm , he mentions pantethine and pantothenic acid, which you are already taking but not in the dose he discusses.
"Typically, a daily dose of 900 mg pantethine has been shown to reduce triglyceride by 20-30%, total cholesterol by 10-20%, LDL cholesterol by 10-20%, and a rise in HDL cholesterol by 10-20% in many studies."
He also talks about digestive enzymes, probiotics and milk thistle besides what you've already said you're taking.
You asked about carbohydrates influencing cholesterol and Dr. Lam discusses that too:
"The surest way to reduce cholesterol is by reducing sugar intake and not reducing dietary cholesterol alone."
"b. Eliminate refined carbohydrates and sugar from your diet and substitute complex carbohydrates that have lots of fiber. Fruit should be the major source of sweetness in your diet. Fruits are filled with pectin and fiber, which work wonders in lower serum cholesterol.
c. Foods that have been shown to lower LDL cholesterol include oat bran, oatmeal, and dry beans out of a can. Oat bran has been shown to reduce LDL cholesterol by up to 20%. Grapefruit - segments and membranes, not the juice - drives down cholesterol. Also fresh oranges, apples, garlic, onions, barley, ginger, and shitake mushrooms.
d. Eat lots of raw onion - at least half a medium onion a day. This has been shown to raise the good HDL cholesterol by up to 30%. Oat bran has also been shown to increase HDL cholesterol by up to 20%."
There you go, raw onion every day. ;)
Dr. Joseph Mercola is practically rabid on the subject of statins. He says about carbs,
"A health food plan that is focused on consuming little to no sugar and grains will effectively lower insulin levels. Elevated insulin levels are one of the primary drivers for raising cholesterol." http://www.mercola.com/2005/may/19/statins_otc.htm
http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htmThe more I can avoid sugar, simple carbs and high glycemic foods in general, the better I feel. It's just so hard to do.
You didn't mention if you are taking magnesium. Magnesium has really helped me with depression, so I take it for that. But when I read both "The Miracle of Magnesium" and "The Magnesium Factor", I thought I would be taking it to prevent heart disease and diabetes otherwise.
Magnesium orotate is one that I've been reading about lately as especially valuable for heart utilization. http://www.aor.ca/MedicalAbsDetail.asp?abs_id=87 I bought some recently from Beyond a Century, in bulk as it's cheaper, but it tastes terrible.
I take a lot of supplements too and the cost horrifies me sometimes which is why I try to get some things there. Also, at iherb if I can stand to order things all at once, there's no shipping charge and a discount for bigger orders. It's not that hard to rack up $120 worth and that's an 8% discount on prices already lower than my local store.
JL
Posted by Optimist on October 2, 2005, at 21:47:39
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » vitaqueen, posted by JLx on October 2, 2005, at 15:59:23
Your TMG amount may be too low to make much of a difference. I've heard of some people having to take up to 6 grams a day in order to bring their homocysteine levels down. I take 6 grams myself although I don't know my homocysteine count. I just know it helps my back.
I second the thought that excess carbohydrates can drive up cholesterol, that someone else said. Try and eat primarily more meat and veges.
Hopefully that helps.
Brian
Posted by neuroman on October 3, 2005, at 12:43:25
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » neuroman, posted by vitaqueen on September 30, 2005, at 13:06:52
Hi,
I've been off of the computer for a few days. You don't need a prescription for niacin (B3). Start slow at 100mg and see if you can handle the flush. If you don't like it stick with the niacinamide.
> I don't take a particular "multi" so the zinc and selenium is the only source. How much additional P5P [that is B6, correct?] and B12 do you suggest?
Maybe you should add one good multi to the regimen in order to be sure you're getting everything you need. Maybe you could cut out some of the individuals (zinc, selenium, etc.) and save money. I can't say how much B6 you need. One way to judge is by the amount of dream recall you have. I know this sounds strange but one of the best ways of detecting a B6 deficiency is if a person can't remember any of their dreams. I take 50mg of P5P per day on top of my multi B formula. As for B12 i take a 2000mcg sublingual tablet.
JLx makes a good point about the thyroid status. I've been on 1/2 grain of natural thyoid for about 6 months. Unfortunately I haven't tested to see if any of this is working because I don't have any medical coverage right now and don't want to spend the ridiculous amount of money for the tests.
Ciao e buona fortuna,
Paul
Posted by gromit on October 3, 2005, at 17:20:16
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine, posted by vitaqueen on September 27, 2005, at 10:41:57
Hi,
I've seen recommendations of up to 1000 mg 3 times a day of regular niacin for the best effect! I could never make it that high, 500 mg a day is the best I can do and taking an aspirin with it helps to reduce the flushing. It's really cheap though and you do kind of adjust to it after a while. Here is something I copied from a book, in the interest of my fingers the second column is effectiveness and the third is safety. Sorry it's kind of ugly but we can't use html to format messages.
Alfalfa C A
Artichoke B C
Beta-sitosterol B- A
Carnitine B+ B
Chitosan B B
Chromium B- B
Fenugreek B+ C
Fiber A A
Fructooligosaccharides B A
Gamma-oryzanol B B
Garlic A A
Ginseng (Panax) B C
Guggol A A
Niacin A D
Pantethine A A
Phosphatidycholine B A
Policosanol A A
Red yeast extract A D
Royal jelly A D
Soy isoflavones B B
Tocotrienols B+ AI have no idea what some of this stuff is. Really high dose niacin and red yeast get a D because they're hard on your liver, the time-release niacin is worse. I assume royal jelly gets a D because some people are allergic to it.
Rick
Posted by vitaqueen on October 4, 2005, at 15:47:28
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » vitaqueen, posted by JLx on October 2, 2005, at 15:59:23
> Some food for thought on some of the pages on Dr. Lam.com, which could use more proofreading, I notice. Lam is an anti-aging specialist apparently. Not all, but most, of what he has to say seems pretty solid to me, albeit alternative/natural. I like how he has things highlighted so you can skim.
Excellent site. I've printed things out to read at a more leisure time. Thank you.
> I know you said you've had high cholesterol since childhood, but since it's getting more resistant to your efforts, maybe there will be some info of value there.
>
> One interesting thing was his comment about hypothyroidism, which we can be at increased risk for as we get older:
>
> "As many as 10 percent of 98 million Americans with high cholesterol and high LDL ("bad") cholesterol may not know that their cholesterol is high due to undiagnosed thyroid problem. Older women with sub clinical or under-active hypothyroidism was shown to be twice as likely as women without this condition to have heart attacks." http://www.drlam.com/physician_support/hypothyroidism.cfm#4I have had my thyroid checked fairly recent, and it was normal -- at least it was by the test taken (a T3 I believe). But I've always wondered if there was a more comprehensive test for this.
> This was an interesting article:
>
> New Markers of Cardiovascular Health http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/1999-No5-NewMarkersofCardiovasularDisease.cfm
>
> Have you been tested for lipoprotein(a)?You mean testing for lipoprotein(a) is different than testing for cholesterol? I've never heard of this before. Of course, no "doctor" ever told me to have my homocysteine checked before either.
>
> I'm going to get some ascorbyl palmitate, as it seems a good idea in general to have a fat soluble Vit C. Interesting that what he recommends, per Linus Pauling protocol for reducing cardiovascular disease, includes most of what he also recommends for adrenal insufficiency, namely proline, lysine, Vit C, and pantothenic acid.
>
> In his article about cholesterol, http://www.lammd.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/Cholesterol.cfm , he mentions pantethine and pantothenic acid, which you are already taking but not in the dose he discusses.
>
> "Typically, a daily dose of 900 mg pantethine has been shown to reduce triglyceride by 20-30%, total cholesterol by 10-20%, LDL cholesterol by 10-20%, and a rise in HDL cholesterol by 10-20% in many studies."So very interesting. Can't wait to really get into the aricles. I don't believe I'm taking much pantethine and pantothenic acid at all. I'll have to check this out.
> He also talks about digestive enzymes, probiotics and milk thistle besides what you've already said you're taking.I do take a probiotic -- Acidopholus 40+ and 200 mg Milk Thistle, both every other day. I know the probiotic has helped.
> You asked about carbohydrates influencing cholesterol and Dr. Lam discusses that too:
>
> "The surest way to reduce cholesterol is by reducing sugar intake and not reducing dietary cholesterol alone."I've heard this enough times now to know it's true, but as you say later -- it is tough to cut this one out. Although, I do notice that once I stop for awhile, it reduces my cravings.
> "b. Eliminate refined carbohydrates and sugar from your diet and substitute complex carbohydrates that have lots of fiber. Fruit should be the major source of sweetness in your diet. Fruits are filled with pectin and fiber, which work wonders in lower serum cholesterol.I have a fruit smoothie every morning -- with about 4-6 ozs almond milk and one scoop of a soy-free vegetable protein powder. It's the damn carrot muffins at Whole Foods that drive me nuts.
> c. Foods that have been shown to lower LDL cholesterol include oat bran, oatmeal, and dry beans out of a can. Oat bran has been shown to reduce LDL cholesterol by up to 20%. Grapefruit - segments and membranes, not the juice - drives down cholesterol. Also fresh oranges, apples, garlic, onions, barley, ginger, and shitake mushrooms.All stuff I eat a lot of, except the grapefruit as I was told when on a cholesterol-lowering statin (i.e. red yeast rice), grapefruit is a no-no.
> d. Eat lots of raw onion - at least half a medium onion a day. This has been shown to raise the good HDL cholesterol by up to 30%. Oat bran has also been shown to increase HDL cholesterol by up to 20%."
>
> There you go, raw onion every day. ;)
Onions no problem, but I have to say, I have never been able to get into oatmeal, or oat bran. There just seems to be too much to have to do to oatmeal to take away the "cardboard" taste.>
> Dr. Joseph Mercola is practically rabid on the subject of statins. He says about carbs,
>
> "A health food plan that is focused on consuming little to no sugar and grains will effectively lower insulin levels. Elevated insulin levels are one of the primary drivers for raising cholesterol." http://www.mercola.com/2005/may/19/statins_otc.htm
> http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm
>
> The more I can avoid sugar, simple carbs and high glycemic foods in general, the better I feel. It's just so hard to do.Yes it is!!! I was on the South Beach Diet awhile back which is based on the glycemic index, and I have to admit, I did lose weight and felt great on it. Contrary to the Atkins which was just too much high-fat for me.
> You didn't mention if you are taking magnesium. Magnesium has really helped me with depression, so I take it for that. But when I read both "The Miracle of Magnesium" and "The Magnesium Factor", I thought I would be taking it to prevent heart disease and diabetes otherwise.
>
> Magnesium orotate is one that I've been reading about lately as especially valuable for heart utilization. http://www.aor.ca/MedicalAbsDetail.asp?abs_id=87 I bought some recently from Beyond a Century, in bulk as it's cheaper, but it tastes terrible.Calcium and magnesium are two I do not take with any regularity. I'm probably naive about this, but for some reason -- since cholesterol has been referred to as a calcium build-up, I'm hesitant to take calcium -- the magnesium is in the same "liquid calcium" I have, so I'm not getting that either.
> I take a lot of supplements too and the cost horrifies me sometimes which is why I try to get some things there. Also, at iherb if I can stand to order things all at once, there's no shipping charge and a discount for bigger orders. It's not that hard to rack up $120 worth and that's an 8% discount on prices already lower than my local store.I would love to save money on some of these things as well, but I'm not certain which brands to trust. There are so many it can get very time-consuming just researching the companies which I really don't have time to do. So I go with the most popular names which I'm sure are a lot more expensive than some other just as good ones. I must spend at least $160/month on this stuff and really wish I could consolidate and take exactly what is necessary. I used to take everything every day, but someone suggested I take some things every other day -- that has saved me a few $$$.
Thanks again, you're help is invaluable.
Donna
>
>
>
>
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Posted by JLx on October 4, 2005, at 18:25:19
In reply to Re: AT MY WITS END -- Cholesterol Homocysteine » JLx, posted by vitaqueen on October 4, 2005, at 15:47:28
> You mean testing for lipoprotein(a) is different than testing for cholesterol? I've never heard of this before. Of course, no "doctor" ever told me to have my homocysteine checked before either.
I hadn't heard of it before that page either. Here's somebody from The Cleveland Clinic, for a more traditional view, stating that he doesn't recommend it for routine screening, but then he says,
"However, one should be aware of the Lp(a) level in special populations, ie, patients with premature coronary heart disease, those with a strong family history of cardiovascular disease, those who have undergone angioplasty or coronary artery bypass grafting, and those with documented cardiovascular disease in the absence of traditional risk factors. In addition to aggressive lowering of elevated levels of LDL-C, attempts to lower Lp(a) in these groups may be warranted on the basis of the epidemiological associations discussed above, especially in light of the efficacy and tolerability of the newer forms of niacin and of fenofibrate." http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/ccjm/sept1999/ccjmoneminutesep99.htm
> Calcium and magnesium are two I do not take with any regularity. I'm probably naive about this, but for some reason -- since cholesterol has been referred to as a calcium build-up, I'm hesitant to take calcium -- the magnesium is in the same "liquid calcium" I have, so I'm not getting that either.
I wouldn't worry about calcium, as you probably get enough from food but magnesium is another story.
Magnesium helps regulate blood sugar, it's part of the relaxation phase of muscle, it's a vasodilator.
"According to Mildred S Seelig, MD, author of The Magnesium Factor, "Most modern heart disease is caused by magnesium deficiency. A vast and convincing body of research, largely ignored, has convinced us and many of our colleagues of this fact. The diet of the industrial world is short on magnesium, and this is causing an epidemic of heart disease in the modern world." http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=21087
I read her book, "The Magnesium Factor" and it's VERY convincing. Over 75 pages of medical studies as references, some of them her own research as that's been her focus for many years apparently. (Most are "abstract unavailable" on PudMed unfortuntately.)
Carolyn Dean, who is an M.D. and a naturopath, in "The Miracle of Magnesium" seems to stop just short of accusing cardiologists of malpractice in not routinely advising their patients about magnesium.
Magnesium is depleted by stress, by high fat/sugar/carb/protein diets, decreases with age.
Some studies re heart:
Comparison of mechanism and functional effects of magnesium and statin pharmaceuticals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15466951&query_hl=13Mg at optimal cellular concentration is well accepted as a natural calcium channel blocker. More recent work shows that Mg also acts as a statin.
Interactions of magnesium and potassium in the pathogenesis of cardiovascular disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6536839&query_hl=13The interactions of Mg and K in cardiovascular disease are diverse and complex. However, Mg deficiency and loss from the heart and arteries, caused e.g. by dietary deficiency or imbalance, or by diseases and their treatment, can contribute to cardiovascular damage, and to functional abnormalities. ... The heart, with its high metabolic activity, is particularly vulnerable to Mg deficiency or loss because of the importance of Mg in mitochondrial structure and enzymatic function. ... A high Ca/Mg ratio also predisposes to arterial spasms, and increases catecholamine release. Thus the arrhythmogenic potential of Mg deficiency can be related to imbalances between Mg and K or between Mg and Ca, or both. Electrical or K-induced catecholamine release is increased by a low Mg/Ca ratio, as are increased fatty acids and lipids and intravascular hypercoagulability.
Protective role of magnesium in cardiovascular diseases: a review.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12349904&query_hl=16
A considerable number of experimental, epidemiological and clinical studies are now available which point to an important role of Mg2+ in the etiology of cardiovascular pathology. In human subjects, hypomagnesemia is often associated with an imbalance of electrolytes such as Na+, K+ and Ca2+. Abnormal dietary deficiency of Mg2+ as well as abnormalities in Mg2+ metabolism play important roles in different types of heart diseases such as ischemic heart disease, congestive heart failure, sudden cardiac death, atheroscelerosis, a number of cardiac arrhythmias and ventricular complications in diabetes mellitus. Mg2+ deficiency results in progressive vasoconstriction of the coronary vessels leading to a marked reduction in oxygen and nutrient delivery to the cardiac myocytes. Numerous experimental and clinical data have suggested that Mg2+ deficiency can induce elevation of intracellular Ca2+ concentrations, formation of oxygen radicals, proinflammatory agents and growth factors and changes in membrane perrmeability and transport processes in cardiac cells.Role of magnesium and potassium in the pathogenesis of arteriosclerosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6399344&query_hl=16Magnesium deficiency results in vascular calcification. Experiments indicate that elastin is the site of the initial calcification and the metabolism of elastin is altered. This vascular lesion then brings about an increase in the collagen content of the wall. Low magnesium status could probably affect this process by slowing collagen resorption and lead to an irreversible accumulation of connective tissue. Results showing a different distribution of the various types of lipoprotein during experimental magnesium deficiency strongly suggest that lipid exchange between the vessel walls and blood can be modified. Severe magnesium deficiency in weanling rats produces a marked hypertriglyceridemia, a decrease in the percentage of cholesterol transported by HDL lipoprotein and a reduction in LCAT activity. The decreased clearance of circulatory triglycerides appears to be the major mechanism contributing to hyperlipemia. Magnesium deficiency could therefore contribute to accumulation of vascular lipid.
Magnesium and cardiovascular biology: an important link between cardiovascular risk factors and atherogenesis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8867781&query_hl=30
The data indicate that Mg deficiency caused either by poor diet and/or errors in Mg metabolism may be a missing link between diverse cardiovascular risk factors and atherosclerosis. Data from our laboratories and others indicate that reduction in extracellular and intracellular free Mg ions (Mg2+) can induce an entire array of pathophysiological phenomena known to be important in atherogenesis, that is, vasospasm, increased vascular reactivity, elevation in [Ca2+]i, formation of proinflammatory agents, oxygen radicals, platelet aggegation, reduction in cardiac bioenergetics, cardiac failure, oxidation of lipoproteins, gender-related modulation of endothelial-derived relaxing factor/NO, changes in membrane fatty acid saturation, changes in membrane plasmalogens and N-phospholipids (suggesting changes in intracellular phospholipid signals), and probably transcription factors.You can read what Dr. Atkins, who was a cardiologist, has to say about magnesium on this page: http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#atkins
I know you're not really looking to add another supplement, but I think magnesium, especially magnesium orotate, would be well advised.
JL
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