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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by stan on February 11, 2006, at 12:12:12
i recently bought some "spring valley" brand enteric coated fish oil from walmart -- these have 180 mg EPA & 120 mg DHA per softgel and three per day are recommended on the label. they have a pleasant vanilla smell and are no "aftertaste" -- they cost about $7.00 for a quantity of 120. they also carried a higher potency version (same brand) that had about 50% more EPA & DHA but the price was considerably more than 50% higher (i guess you have to pay up for the convenience of gobbling fewer pills per day). my questions:
should i stick to the spring valley brand, or has someone here found a better deal that would cost me less for the same amount of EPA/DHA? i wouldn't mind buying a lot at one time (it didn't seem that wal-mart had the enteric type in quantites greater than 120). please provide brand names and places to buy them, either online or in-store. ideally i'd like the softgels to be higher potency than what i have now to reduce the # i have to take each day, but i'm primarily interested in lowering costs.
is 540 mg EPA & 360 mg DHA an adequate amount to take each day? can i get away with less, or conversely, should i take more? thanks for any advice,
stan
Posted by jedi on February 13, 2006, at 3:13:03
In reply to Fish Oil:need cheap high potency w/enteric coating, posted by stan on February 11, 2006, at 12:12:12
Stan,
I use the Kirkland/Costco brand of enteric coated fish oil. I have a local store but it can be ordered online. Costco is a membership store. The controlled studies with omega-3s have used at least one gram (1000mg) of EPA for effective treatment of depression. I take 2400mg of EPA and 2000mg of DHA daily. This is ten of the Kirkland fish oil capsules spread out during the day. This dosage has allowed me to completely withdrawal from 90mg of Nardil. I have been taking Nardil off and on (mostly on) for ten years. The omega-3s are the only thing that has allowed me to stay off Nardil without recurring major depression. My diagnosis is treatment resistant, atypical, double depression, with social and generalized anxiety disorder. I’m pretty sure all of the PDOCs I’ve seen have missed a soft bipolar (bipolar II) aspect of this atypical depression. I still take 1mg of clonazepam daily. I am a firm believer in the omega-3 fatty acids and I’m sure more studies will confirm their efficacy over the next few years.
Good Luck,
JediLinks:
Costco/Kirkland Coated Enteric Fish Oil
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?ProdID=11071265#productinfoOmega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids and depression: A review of the evidence and a methodological critique.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16337677&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum
> i recently bought some "spring valley" brand enteric coated fish oil from walmart -- these have 180 mg EPA & 120 mg DHA per softgel and three per day are recommended on the label. they have a pleasant vanilla smell and are no "aftertaste" -- they cost about $7.00 for a quantity of 120. they also carried a higher potency version (same brand) that had about 50% more EPA & DHA but the price was considerably more than 50% higher (i guess you have to pay up for the convenience of gobbling fewer pills per day). my questions:
>
> should i stick to the spring valley brand, or has someone here found a better deal that would cost me less for the same amount of EPA/DHA? i wouldn't mind buying a lot at one time (it didn't seem that wal-mart had the enteric type in quantites greater than 120). please provide brand names and places to buy them, either online or in-store. ideally i'd like the softgels to be higher potency than what i have now to reduce the # i have to take each day, but i'm primarily interested in lowering costs.
>
> is 540 mg EPA & 360 mg DHA an adequate amount to take each day? can i get away with less, or conversely, should i take more? thanks for any advice,
>
> stan
Posted by stan on February 15, 2006, at 8:08:15
In reply to Re: Fish Oil:need cheap high potency w/enteric coating » stan, posted by jedi on February 13, 2006, at 3:13:03
thanks for the info, jedi -- this is the cheapest i've seen, even with the 5% non-member surcharge -- i'll be ordering very soon.
stan
Posted by sdb on February 26, 2006, at 20:11:37
In reply to Re: Fish Oil:need cheap high potency w/enteric coating » jedi, posted by stan on February 15, 2006, at 8:08:15
Jedi,
Do you have any sideeffects with the ten Fish Oil capsules daily?
Do you take the Fish Oil distributed?
How long did you wait until the Fish Oil "kicked" in?
Does the Fish Oil primarely work against depression or/and anxiety for you?I think it's a very good result for you no more having the phenelzine sideeffects :-)
sdb
Posted by jedi on February 26, 2006, at 22:42:12
In reply to Re: Fish Oil:need cheap high potency --Jedi, posted by sdb on February 26, 2006, at 20:11:37
sdb,
When I first started taking high doses of EPA and DHA I was still taking 70 to 90mg daily of phenelzine. The omega-3s combined with phenelzine caused some pretty severe insomnia at first. As I weaned off and quit the phenelzine, the insomnia abated. Nardil disrupts REM sleep in almost everybody and really disturbs the sleep architecture. When mixed with the high dose of omega-3 fatty acids my insomnia was compounded. I spread the ten grams of fish oil out during the day. Usually in about three or four doses. For me it was about two months at the high dosage of 2400mg EPA and 2000mg DHA before I could start dropping the Nardil 15mg per week and not have the symptoms of depression return. I still take 1mg of clonazepam daily for the social and generalized anxiety. I have been taking this amount daily for years as it really seems to help me. I may try to wean off this in the near future to see if the fatty acids have helped me in the area of anxiety. It is a little strange being off of Nardil after so many years. I find myself tearing up at emotional things on TV, etc. It is not a depressive sadness, just feeling the emotions that had been cut off for so long. I have taken off ten pounds or so since quitting phenelzine. It is a small start, but it is a start. That med can really pack on the pounds- but for some people, me included, it is a wonder drug. Phenelzine saved my life more than once.
Take care,
Jedi> Jedi,
> Do you have any side effects with the ten Fish Oil capsules daily?
> Do you take the Fish Oil distributed?
> How long did you wait until the Fish Oil "kicked" in?
> Does the Fish Oil primarely work against depression or/and anxiety for you?
>
> I think it's a very good result for you no more having the phenelzine sideeffects :-)
>
> sdb
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 27, 2006, at 9:31:28
In reply to Fish Oil: need cheap high potency » sdb, posted by jedi on February 26, 2006, at 22:42:12
> sdb,
> When I first started taking high doses of EPA and DHA I was still taking 70 to 90mg daily of phenelzine. The omega-3s combined with phenelzine caused some pretty severe insomnia at first. As I weaned off and quit the phenelzine, the insomnia abated. Nardil disrupts REM sleep in almost everybody and really disturbs the sleep architecture. When mixed with the high dose of omega-3 fatty acids my insomnia was compounded. I spread the ten grams of fish oil out during the day. Usually in about three or four doses. For me it was about two months at the high dosage of 2400mg EPA and 2000mg DHA before I could start dropping the Nardil 15mg per week and not have the symptoms of depression return. I still take 1mg of clonazepam daily for the social and generalized anxiety. I have been taking this amount daily for years as it really seems to help me. I may try to wean off this in the near future to see if the fatty acids have helped me in the area of anxiety. It is a little strange being off of Nardil after so many years. I find myself tearing up at emotional things on TV, etc. It is not a depressive sadness, just feeling the emotions that had been cut off for so long. I have taken off ten pounds or so since quitting phenelzine. It is a small start, but it is a start. That med can really pack on the pounds- but for some people, me included, it is a wonder drug. Phenelzine saved my life more than once.
> Take care,
> JediI SO like to hear success stories like yours. When you first started taking the fish oil, I'm certain that you didn't expect to be able to go off the Nardil altogether, right? But, you paid attention to all the information your body made available to your mind, and you intuitively moved ahead. And with great success. Yes!
A couple of thoughts. First, you don't really gain any nutritional advantage from splitting the fish oil up over the course of your day. If you're doing it to minimize side effects (e.g. rancid fish burps), then no biggie. So long as your fish oil is consumed alongside sufficient other fat to trigger the secretion of sufficient bile to emulsify all the fat in your gut, then it really doesn't matter that you split it up. If instead your dietary fat intake varies through the day, your fish oil would best be taken alongside the fattiest foods of that day, or say, split into two intstead of four doses.
Although I don't know that fish oil will really have a tangible effect on your anxiety levels, it is possible that your general resiliency to stress will be so improved that you may find yourself comfortably managing things that might have previously set you off. Anxiety, and other emotions, are to some extent learned responses. Given your experience with safely weaning off Nardil, you may find a similar ability with respect to weaning off anxiolytics.
A word of caution, though. Anxiety and affective state disorders are quite capable of spontaneous remission. Please do not resist too strongly the thought that returning to psych meds might be a wise move, should an acute disturbance come up again. I don't see fish oil as being entirely prophylactic with respect to mood disturbance.
In my case, I medicate when I think an acute disturbance exceeds my "I can handle it" threshold. I treat until I get my feet back on the ground. And then I withdraw from meds again. I'm just too sensitive to meds to remain medicated for one day longer than I need it. But, I do not hesitate to medicate if it is indicated.
Best,
Lar
Posted by sdb on February 27, 2006, at 15:30:44
In reply to Re: Fish Oil: need cheap high potency » jedi, posted by Larry Hoover on February 27, 2006, at 9:31:28
Thanks jedi for clarification, thanks Larry for the response
Jedi, good luck further on with the fishoil!
Fishoil plus 1mg clonazepam compared to 90mg phenelzine plus clonazepam is astonishing.
I am now on fishoil therapy also (Alaska deep sea fishoil from k-max, www.kanglonggroup.com/e_k-max.htm).
Dosage possibly too low to have any positive effects (perhaps 600mg EPA). But even at that low dosage I seem to be somehow sensible to the oil. No sideeffects so far :). I will take something more to see what happens.45mg phenelzine did something for me but there were some bad sideeffects of course.
It lasts a long time to have phenelzine completely out of your body. I dont like that.I dont know theories how fishoil works in our body improving psych status besides membranes.
>>I SO like to hear success stories like yours
I like this too, jedi
>>But, I do not hesitate to medicate if it is indicated
I ask me when a drug should really be indicated.
>>I'm just too sensitive to meds to remain medicated for one day longer than I need it
Me the same,
sdb
Posted by jedi on March 3, 2006, at 23:49:36
In reply to Re: Fish Oil: need cheap high potency » jedi, posted by Larry Hoover on February 27, 2006, at 9:31:28
Larry,
I thought for sure I responded to your post; must have been lost in “Cyber Hell”. Anyway, thanks for your posts about the omega-3 fatty acids. It was some of your postings that convinced me to do some of my own research on these essential fatty acids, and give them a fair trial. You are correct in that I had no idea that I would be able to wean off Nardil while taking this “alternative” treatment. I was really only hoping for a boost in the effect of the MAOI.I am a firm believer that these fatty acids work in profound ways in cardiovascular health, inflammation, immunity and even some depressions.
I am also a firm believer in the MAOI, Phenelzine Hydrochloride. This medication saved my life more than once. I believe it should be a 2nd tier antidepressant for treatment resistant atypical depression and social anxiety. I have a couple months supply stored without air and light, just in case the depression returns.
Thanks again,
Jedi
> I SO like to hear success stories like yours. When you first started taking the fish oil, I'm certain that you didn't expect to be able to go off the Nardil altogether, right? But, you paid attention to all the information your body made available to your mind, and you intuitively moved ahead. And with great success. Yes!
>
> A couple of thoughts. First, you don't really gain any nutritional advantage from splitting the fish oil up over the course of your day. If you're doing it to minimize side effects (e.g. rancid fish burps), then no biggie. So long as your fish oil is consumed alongside sufficient other fat to trigger the secretion of sufficient bile to emulsify all the fat in your gut, then it really doesn't matter that you split it up. If instead your dietary fat intake varies through the day, your fish oil would best be taken alongside the fattiest foods of that day, or say, split into two intstead of four doses.
>
> Although I don't know that fish oil will really have a tangible effect on your anxiety levels, it is possible that your general resiliency to stress will be so improved that you may find yourself comfortably managing things that might have previously set you off. Anxiety, and other emotions, are to some extent learned responses. Given your experience with safely weaning off Nardil, you may find a similar ability with respect to weaning off anxiolytics.
>
> A word of caution, though. Anxiety and affective state disorders are quite capable of spontaneous remission. Please do not resist too strongly the thought that returning to psych meds might be a wise move, should an acute disturbance come up again. I don't see fish oil as being entirely prophylactic with respect to mood disturbance.
>
> In my case, I medicate when I think an acute disturbance exceeds my "I can handle it" threshold. I treat until I get my feet back on the ground. And then I withdraw from meds again. I'm just too sensitive to meds to remain medicated for one day longer than I need it. But, I do not hesitate to medicate if it is indicated.
>
> Best,
> Lar
Posted by jedi on March 5, 2006, at 3:10:25
In reply to Re: Fish Oil: need cheap high potency, posted by jedi on March 3, 2006, at 23:49:36
>I am also a firm believer in the MAOI, Phenelzine Hydrochloride.
Should have been "phenelzine sulfate" (Nardil)
This is the end of the thread.
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