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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by linkadge on April 7, 2006, at 14:33:05
In reply to Sorry, general posting not directed to anyone, posted by Glydin on April 7, 2006, at 11:40:48
Nothing is for everbody. There is compelling evidence to suggest that magnesium deficiancy may be a the heart of certain psychiatric disorders.
Magnesium deficiancy can cause anxiety, and anxiety can cause deficiancy.
It is probably wise to get some sort of nutrient profile done before making any decisions.
Linkadge
Posted by mike99 on April 7, 2006, at 17:22:53
In reply to Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium, posted by jerrympls on April 7, 2006, at 3:56:05
Magnesium is the *only* non-prescription I've found useful for ADHD, aside from fish oil...but if I had to choose between the two I'd probably go with Mag. And I love how it calms m'heart as well as brain.
It doesn't work as well as stimulants for me and I've never found it to have an antidepressant effect...but I definitely notice an increased calmness and focus. Tried many fancy brands (such as slow-mag which is magnesium chloride) and plain old Magnesium oxide (as in tums antacid) works just the same for me.
I take a 250 mg tablet in addition to the 125 in my multivitamin. Much more and my blood pressure drops too low. Anyhow, there's a lot of hype and unproven alternative/natural treatments out there...but definitely is one that is legitimate.
Posted by Glydin on April 7, 2006, at 18:07:07
In reply to Re: Sorry, general posting not directed to anyone » Glydin, posted by linkadge on April 7, 2006, at 14:15:13
> Nothing is for everbody.
That's always been a important point to me.
> It is probably wise to get some sort of nutrient profile done before making any decisions.
>And to discontinue when adverse events are more problematic than benefits worthwhile. PVC's and other EKG changes and funky labs are not fun.
While your beef is with the pharm industry, mine is with another industry. Mega dosing and supplements have been not good to me and it that regard, I think I was sold and untrue bill of goods as I think you feel about the industry you have a problem with. Battle scars can come from different sources.
Glydin
Posted by linkadge on April 7, 2006, at 18:45:56
In reply to -- » linkadge, posted by Glydin on April 7, 2006, at 18:07:07
I think that it is important not to turn your back completly on alternitive treatments when one fails (not that you are)
There are many alternitive treamtnents and while not everybody benifits from each one, that is not to say that there is not something that can be of use.
I have benifited from fish oil, magnesium, taurine, and folic acid. Some other treatments have mede me worse.
I don't always recomend megadosing either. I benifit from 50-100mg of magnesium, too much makes me more depressed.
Linkadge
Posted by Glydin on April 7, 2006, at 18:58:02
In reply to Re: -- » Glydin, posted by linkadge on April 7, 2006, at 18:45:56
> I think that it is important not to turn your back completly on alternitive treatments when one fails (not that you are)
~~~ I'm trying not to. My less than stellar eating habits do have me at least doing a multi vit, which I'm tolerating well. It did take a while for me to even touch anything.
I do try to keep an open mind...
Posted by linkadge on April 7, 2006, at 19:46:15
In reply to Re: -- » linkadge, posted by Glydin on April 7, 2006, at 18:58:02
Well hey, I need to keep an open mind too.
Linkadge
Posted by Glydin on April 7, 2006, at 21:11:56
In reply to Re: --, posted by linkadge on April 7, 2006, at 19:46:15
> Well hey, I need to keep an open mind too.
>
>
>
> LinkadgeI think you have more of an open mind than you realize. (smile)
There's nothing wrong with questioning and you are have a sharp inquiring mind - I give you a bit of a hard time sometimes but I do like the way you want answers and go about finding answers.
Posted by Phillipa on April 7, 2006, at 21:52:59
In reply to Re: -- » linkadge, posted by Glydin on April 7, 2006, at 21:11:56
Vita C ester l000mg Bid, glucosamine without the condrontine the moecule is too large, Women's all natural plant source Mvi, B complex 50mg once or twice a day good for anxiety or depression, Omega 3 two caps daily (Lar knows the one I take and agrees with the dose) Magnesuyn citrate relaxation and an assured bowel movement daily. Calcium and Magnesium and extra D prescribed by a doc as I don't drink milk hate use yougurt instead. Taurine, Gaba, Love Phillipa I was a Shaklee person for years but moved and lost contact with my group.
Posted by argort on April 7, 2006, at 22:43:56
In reply to I take the following for many many years, posted by Phillipa on April 7, 2006, at 21:52:59
I asked my pdoc about magnesium supplements. He said that magnesium deficiency can cause depression, but taking magnesium is unlikely to help if you are not deficient. You can easily get a blood test to check your serum magnesium levels.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 8, 2006, at 16:01:53
In reply to Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium, posted by jerrympls on April 7, 2006, at 3:56:05
Hi Jerry,
Magnesium has been the single most important and helpful "alternative" med I have ever taken. I started taking it regularly at night about two years ago. I used to take it in a combination form with Calcium, but now I take it separately, usually as "Chelated Magnesium/Magnesium glycinate." Sometimes I'll take Magnesium citrate, but the glycinate form seems to help me relax more. I think it's important not to take too much. The pills I have are 400mg. I take either 400 or 200mg. Often, I'll take 200 mg until I go through my monthly "premenstrual nuclear meltdown." That's when I have to increase it to 400mg. Also, I've found it's best not to take it too late at night (or too late in the wee morning hours). If I take it past 2:00 am, it makes me much too sluggish later that day.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I have an entire kitchen cupboard full of alternative supplements that I've tried and abandoned. Except for magnesium, vitamin C and my Centrum multivitamins, all the other supplements have been a waste of money. Magnesium is the ONLY one that has really lived up to the claims made for it, but I do think you have to buy the right kind (such as glycinate, citrate, taurate, etc.), find the best dosage for you (and that might vary depending on what is going on in your life), and you have to experiment with finding the time of night or day that's best for you to take it.
Posted by jerrympls on April 9, 2006, at 23:54:56
In reply to mag is legit, posted by mike99 on April 7, 2006, at 17:22:53
> Magnesium is the *only* non-prescription I've found useful for ADHD, aside from fish oil...but if I had to choose between the two I'd probably go with Mag. And I love how it calms m'heart as well as brain.
>
> It doesn't work as well as stimulants for me and I've never found it to have an antidepressant effect...but I definitely notice an increased calmness and focus. Tried many fancy brands (such as slow-mag which is magnesium chloride) and plain old Magnesium oxide (as in tums antacid) works just the same for me.
>
> I take a 250 mg tablet in addition to the 125 in my multivitamin. Much more and my blood pressure drops too low. Anyhow, there's a lot of hype and unproven alternative/natural treatments out there...but definitely is one that is legitimate.Apparently- certain types of magnesisum work the best - including:
Magnesisum Taurate
Magnesium GlycinateTaken from the article at the link below
http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#taurine"I have major PRECAUTIONS at this link concerning potentially harmful magnesium compounds and at this link concerning ineffective compounds of magnesium for treating depression. For brevity and simplicity: (a) magnesium oxide and magnesium hydroxide are ineffective and (b) magnesium glutamate and magnesium aspartate are potentially harmful."
I've also learned that taking calcium w/magnesium balances thing out when taken at a 2:1 ratio (calcium to mag.) - this also diminishes any diarrhea associated with mag. supplementation.
Posted by jerrympls on April 9, 2006, at 23:56:06
In reply to Re: -- » Glydin, posted by linkadge on April 7, 2006, at 18:45:56
> I think that it is important not to turn your back completly on alternitive treatments when one fails (not that you are)
>
> There are many alternitive treamtnents and while not everybody benifits from each one, that is not to say that there is not something that can be of use.
>
> I have benifited from fish oil, magnesium, taurine, and folic acid. Some other treatments have mede me worse.
>
> I don't always recomend megadosing either. I benifit from 50-100mg of magnesium, too much makes me more depressed.
>
> Linkadge
>
>Link-
So too much mag. makes you depressed?? Interesting.
Jerry
Posted by yesac on April 11, 2006, at 13:17:16
In reply to Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium, posted by jerrympls on April 7, 2006, at 3:56:05
I've been reading up on magnesium, and it seems like it's at least worth a try and could possibly help with my various mental health symptoms... although I am a bit cautious and wary of what I've found on the Internet, especially George Eby's site and accompanying article. It just sounds like it's a little too good to be true.
But anyways, I'm still thinking of giving it a try, but it looks like it's hard to find magnesium supplements that contain anything but magnesium oxide. Magnesium citrate solution is a laxative-- but I saw that it contains 290mgs of magnesium per ounce, so it seems like it could possibly be a good source of magnesium. Also, it's very cheap. Has anyone used this? Where have people been able to find good magnesium supplements?
Posted by jerrympls on April 11, 2006, at 13:27:56
In reply to Has anyone used magnesium citrate solution?, posted by yesac on April 11, 2006, at 13:17:16
Try
They've got Magnesium Taurate and that's what I take. Another good form is mag. glycinate.
Jerry
Posted by yesac on April 11, 2006, at 14:36:32
In reply to Has anyone used magnesium citrate solution?, posted by yesac on April 11, 2006, at 13:17:16
> But anyways, I'm still thinking of giving it a try, but it looks like it's hard to find magnesium supplements that contain anything but magnesium oxide.
George Eby says that magnesium oxide and hydroxide are ineffective because they are not absorbed by the body. But one of his links is to a website by Steve Harris M.D.-- who says that MgO is fine for most people.I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this-- is magnesium oxide okay or is it better to use a different form? Thanks.
Posted by jerrympls on April 11, 2006, at 16:13:19
In reply to Re: another question, posted by yesac on April 11, 2006, at 14:36:32
> > But anyways, I'm still thinking of giving it a try, but it looks like it's hard to find magnesium supplements that contain anything but magnesium oxide.
>
>
> George Eby says that magnesium oxide and hydroxide are ineffective because they are not absorbed by the body. But one of his links is to a website by Steve Harris M.D.-- who says that MgO is fine for most people.
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this-- is magnesium oxide okay or is it better to use a different form? Thanks.Actually, I've been taking mag. oxide for about a week now and have noticed improvements.
Jerry
Posted by linkadge on April 12, 2006, at 11:21:54
In reply to Re: -- » linkadge, posted by jerrympls on April 9, 2006, at 23:56:06
Yes, too little causes problems, but too much can make me a little depressed.
I certainly benifit from supplementation, but anything over about 250-300mg can make me a little down.
Linkadge
Posted by blueberry on April 12, 2006, at 18:51:58
In reply to Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium, posted by jerrympls on April 7, 2006, at 3:56:05
I can send myself into a very very seriously deep dark depession by taking about 200mg to 300mg of magnesium for 3 days.
It was a tease though, because the first day actually felt decent. I tried magnesium on at least 4 different trials, and each time ended so badly.
Tried glycinate and then citrate. Anything, even vitamin supplements, with magnesium in them are bad for me.
Posted by linkadge on April 12, 2006, at 20:48:33
In reply to Re: Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium, posted by blueberry on April 12, 2006, at 18:51:58
I think that it is really about trying to achieve homeostasis of intracellular calcium. If you are low in magnesium you can have to much excitory neurotransmission which can manifest as anxiety, irritability, apathy, CFS, feeling on edge etc, but too much magnesium and you probably weaken nerve impulses too much and get depression that way.
Stress can deplete magnesium as can certain drugs like stimulants. Effexor made me clinically magnesium deficiant, (and suicidal), and (the right amount) of magnesium really helped.
I personally buy the 50mg tablets, and take 1-3 of them a day. If you overshoot then you're likely to just quit it alltogether which may not be best.
Linkadge
Posted by jerrympls on April 13, 2006, at 20:33:50
In reply to Re: Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium, posted by linkadge on April 12, 2006, at 20:48:33
I've been trying magnesium now for a week and it's been amazing - I'm still trying to figure out the right dosage and scheduling - but so far it's done wonders for my anxiety. I usually take Klonopin 1mg 4x daily and in the past 4 days or so I've only been taking 1mg 2x daily. I also feel "stable." I have unipolar depression, but I cycle from feeling OK to deeply depressed and in the past 4 days I've felt like there's a firm foundation - like the bottom's NOT going to fall out from under me.
I have noticed that taking the magnesium too close to when I take my Adderall almost negates ALL the effects of the Adderall.
I think it's clear in my mind that I DO have a magnesium defficency. I'll keep reporting back - if anyone cares?
Jerry :-)
Posted by linkadge on April 14, 2006, at 7:32:53
In reply to Re: Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium, posted by jerrympls on April 13, 2006, at 20:33:50
Yeah, certainly post back, I'd be interested.
I was placed on lithium for a similar mood schedule, normal, then very depressed, cylcing, but no mania.
The lithium helped a little, but it didn't "stop" things the way that magnesium did. Magnesium really silenced my head.
Linkadge
Posted by LOOPS on May 6, 2006, at 11:38:17
In reply to Re: Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium, posted by linkadge on April 14, 2006, at 7:32:53
Hi all -
I'm really glad this topic came up again - I really wish there was a good forum dedicated to magnesium and mood disorders as I'm very interested in people's experiences.
So I think I've now been taking magnesium for around 7 months. I started off taking all kinds of forms - lactate, chloride, citrate, and did take calcium at the same time (about 1:1).
I think taking the calcium constantly made the magnesium not work very well for me - I had initial success with sleep/mood/anxiety but then things seemed to get worse than before I'd started - I became very anxious, couldn't sleep etc and crying fits all day. I also had problems with diarrhea.
I kept re-reading the coldcure site - I couldn't believe I was so different from George and maybe I should go for it and ditch the calcium completely. So I started just taking the magnesium. I think initially I'd added in calcium because the magnesium was making me wake up very early, and initially calcium helped in making me sleep longer. I value my sleep so much and don't believe that everyone needs just 4 hours of sleep.
I also changed brands of magnesium - right now I'm working through 2 different ones -
Dyno-mins magnesium (mixed organic chelates)
Kal magnesium hydroxy-orotates (mixed chelates)These seem to work much better. I still have soft stools, but not diarrhea. My sleep improved once more once off the calcium. I still eat dairy though as I eat high fat low carb and like goats cheese.
I take half a pill morning (125mg Mg), another one at lunch, and at night I take 200mg of the kal brand, then another 1/2 if I wake up too early. This gives me around 550mg magnesium a day, which I think is a lot.
Note though that I still drink wine in the evenings and have a stubborn nicotine habit (trying to quit with the gum) - I also drink caffeine, so my needs are probably quite a bit higher then someone who doesn't do these things. In fact I wonder if it is these habits alone which got me messed up mentally in the first place by depleting magnesium too much.
I also take melatonin every night and it is working for me again. I seem to have to take a break from it every couple of months but other than that it keeps working. The low-carb diet has been very important along with the magnesium - initially it seemed to screw my sleep up more (low serotonin) - but now it seems to be really helping as my day/night rhythms seem much stronger (awake during the day then I conk out a few hours after darkness comes).
So the calcium seemed to build up with me from the pills and was not a good idea. I also tried taking calcium one week when I started to get irregular heart beat - thinking it was too much Mg and not enough Ca. Taking Ca seemed to make things worse so I backed off that again.
I've ordered some Mg malate because it's cheaper - I'll let you know if it works out. My guess is the mixed forms are probably better for the body but who knows?
I also take a multi-vit (low dose Bs - can't tolerate those mega pills), cod liver oil, a VERY LOW dose of fish oil compared to my previous mega-oiling (2-3 caps a day)and some siberian ginseng. Other odd things get thrown in occasionally but not every day.
So overall I think I'm feeling much more balanced and relaxed on the magnesium without calcium - I do feel more relaxed round other people as well as I am naturally a very socially anxious person. I am not feeling depressed, but more importantly not so anxious as this is more of a problem for me. My life problems continue, but I am not crying every day about them.
Loops
Posted by LOOPS on May 12, 2006, at 17:03:19
In reply to My updated experiences, posted by LOOPS on May 6, 2006, at 11:38:17
Ok I take it all back again.
After one (or was it more?) weeks of just doing magnesium I started getting heart palpitations and my insomnia came back full force. One night the palps got so bad I thought I was going to die. Anyone else get this from magnesium? I ended up scrambling around in the middle of the night for some calcium pills - I took like a whole gram of the stuff and finally the palpitations quietened down and I got to sleep. Scarey stuff.
The next day I continued with a mixture of calcium and magnesium and felt fine, then today what I was scared about did happen - I have been thrown back into depression. So magnesium on its own is bad, but calcium is bad too because it makes me depressed. I just can't win.
Glydin - I would really like to hear about your experiences with magnesium - you say it gave you pvps as well? What happened?
Thanks
Loops
Posted by jerrympls on May 12, 2006, at 17:55:21
In reply to Oh no!!, posted by LOOPS on May 12, 2006, at 17:03:19
> Ok I take it all back again.
>
> After one (or was it more?) weeks of just doing magnesium I started getting heart palpitations and my insomnia came back full force. One night the palps got so bad I thought I was going to die. Anyone else get this from magnesium? I ended up scrambling around in the middle of the night for some calcium pills - I took like a whole gram of the stuff and finally the palpitations quietened down and I got to sleep. Scarey stuff.
>
> The next day I continued with a mixture of calcium and magnesium and felt fine, then today what I was scared about did happen - I have been thrown back into depression. So magnesium on its own is bad, but calcium is bad too because it makes me depressed. I just can't win.
>
> Glydin - I would really like to hear about your experiences with magnesium - you say it gave you pvps as well? What happened?
>
> Thanks
>
> LoopsYour reaction is an odd one. Magnesium should HELP heart palpitations if anything.
I've been taking Magnesisum Taurate for about a month now and it has had a miraculous effect upon my depression and anxiety. My mood is FAR more stable than it's ever been and I've gone from 4mg of Klonopin/day to 1mg/day. I also supplement it with Taurine which helps with stability too. And I know none of this is the result of a placebo effect because last week I ran out of my magnesium taurate and was off of it for about 4 days - well, my anxiety SKYROCKETED and I was crying and very unstable.
Magnesium has been a miracle supplement for me. What I can't understand is why doctors don't recommend this to patients.
The Magnesium Miracle I call it.
Jerr ;-)
Posted by Glydin on May 12, 2006, at 21:41:33
In reply to Oh no!!, posted by LOOPS on May 12, 2006, at 17:03:19
> Glydin - I would really like to hear about your experiences with magnesium - you say it gave you pvps as well? What happened?
~~~ Hi LOOPS,Sorry to hear of your problems with Mag. Yes, I had PVC's along with inverted T waves and some other rhythm disturbances that were not consistent but showed up over a 12 hour monitoring time. It's not definately clear whether it was the diarrhea that messed up my electrolytes or a direct action of the Mag or a combo. At the time, my Mag level was not extremely elevated but measuring serum Mag levels doesn't always reflect what the intracellular level actually is and therefore the real action or impact. My K+ level was extremely low and that in and of itself can play havoc with the heart's electrical system.
As far as how I felt, I did experience chest "flutters" related my heart rate. Of course, I was lightheaded as heck and generally felt awful. My co-workers reported me pale as a ghost. I got hooked up a heart rate monitor and it scared the bejeez out of everyone and they carted me off the the ER.
It was a scary and unexpected experience from trying to use a mineral supplementation. It would seem such a benign endeavor with fairly low risk of untoward effects. It wasn't for me.
Again, I'm sorry for your difficulties with it.
Take care,
Glydin
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