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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by blueberry on December 3, 2006, at 15:33:17
Hi Linkadge,
What brand of SJW are you taking?
I started Kira LI160 2 weeks ago at the same time I stopped 10mg prozac. I have carefully slowly increased the dose from 150mg to 550mg as the prozac washes out.
I have two clinical brands onhand. Kira and Remotiv ZE117 (ordered from overseas). I started on Kira and take 300mg of it. I am taking Remotiv with it at 250mg. I can't decide which brand to stick with or whether I should keep combining them. From researching pubmed clinical studies and other google searches Remotiv looks like the best brand going, even though it doesn't have hyperforin.
Anyway, any input? Thanks.
Posted by blueberry on December 3, 2006, at 16:42:15
In reply to Linkadge, SJW Input Please, posted by blueberry on December 3, 2006, at 15:33:17
I forgot to mention, I'm also trying to withdraw from 10 years of 5mg zyprexa and 3 months of 2.5mg. Currently at 1.25mg. They say benzos are hard to withdraw from. They aint nothin like zyprexa. It's the worst.
Also taking high EPA fish oil and just started lithium orotate Serenity brand. Daily dose is supposed to be 300mg. I did 200mg the first day no problem. We'll see what happens if anything.
I really have my hopes for SJW and a pinch of lithium. If they don't work I'm afraid I'll be screwed and have to go back to some ssri/antipsychotic combination.
Posted by kiwiredbeach on December 4, 2006, at 2:22:10
In reply to Re: Linkadge, SJW Input Please, posted by blueberry on December 3, 2006, at 16:42:15
blueberry have you tried nardil ???
Posted by linkadge on December 5, 2006, at 13:27:03
In reply to Re: Linkadge, SJW Input Please, posted by blueberry on December 3, 2006, at 16:42:15
To be honest I am not sure which brand is better. Has Kira been around longer?
I've personally heard more about Kira, but thats not to say it is better or worse.
Linkadge
Posted by sdb on December 5, 2006, at 16:44:46
In reply to Linkadge, SJW Input Please, posted by blueberry on December 3, 2006, at 15:33:17
> Hi Linkadge,
>
> What brand of SJW are you taking?
>
> I started Kira LI160 2 weeks ago at the same time I stopped 10mg prozac. I have carefully slowly increased the dose from 150mg to 550mg as the prozac washes out.
>
> I have two clinical brands onhand. Kira and Remotiv ZE117 (ordered from overseas). I started on Kira and take 300mg of it. I am taking Remotiv with it at 250mg. I can't decide which brand to stick with or whether I should keep combining them. From researching pubmed clinical studies and other google searches Remotiv looks like the best brand going, even though it doesn't have hyperforin.
>
> Anyway, any input? Thanks.Ze 117 has done some good studies so there is evidence that Ze 117 can work. But there is not much data, not many studies available and some were probably influenced by pharmaceutical companies. If there's no hyperforin it does not mean that hypericum does not work. In some studies hypericin and hyperforin were gradually removed but a lot of other substances of the extract had still big influence on the brain chemistry. If you
take Ze 117 without hyperforin you will definitely have the advantage for less drug interactions e.g. drugs metabolized by CYP3A4 (and there are many) thus benzodiazepines will continue to work and there are less interactions with other drugs.sdb
Most recent study:
Vitamin E Reduces Antidepressant-Related beta-Adrenoceptor Down-Regulation in Cultured Cells. Comparable Effects on St. John's Wort and Tricyclic Antidepressant Treatment.
The mode of action of antidepressants is still a matter of debate. Acute inhibition of neurotransmitter reuptake in central neuronal synapses, followed by a down-regulation of central postsynaptic beta-adrenoceptor (beta-AR) numbers were consistently observed IN VIVO, while a reduction in surface beta-AR density was found in cell cultures. Effects of the tricyclic antidepressant desipramine (DMI) were abolished by vitamin E (alpha-TOC) IN VITRO as well as IN VIVO. alpha-TOC interfered with antidepressant-induced changes of cellular plasma membrane properties and with recycling of beta-AR. St. John's wort (SJW) extract reduced beta-AR numbers in cultured cells to a similar extent as DMI or the selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor fluoxetine. We chronically co-exposed cell cultures to SJW extract and to alpha-TOC. Receptor down-regulation following exposure to the plant extract was inhibited in the presence of alpha-TOC suggesting a mode of action of SJW extract comparable to that of synthetic antidepressants. Inhibition of cell proliferation by the plant extract was also significantly reduced by alpha-TOC. alpha-TOC:alpha-Tocopherol, vitamin E beta-AR:beta-Adrenoceptor C6 cells:Rat glioma C6 cells DMI:Desipramine SD:Standard Deviation SJW:Saint John's Wort SSRI:Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors TCA:Tricyclic Antidepressants Ze 117 extract:Saint John's Wort extract Ze 117.
PMID: 17109256 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
Posted by linkadge on December 5, 2006, at 19:45:46
In reply to Re: Linkadge, SJW Input Please, posted by sdb on December 5, 2006, at 16:44:46
Strange, I wonder if vitamin E reduces the antidepressant effect of either agent.
Linkadge
Posted by dessbee on December 7, 2006, at 14:25:49
In reply to Re: Linkadge, SJW Input Please, posted by sdb on December 5, 2006, at 16:44:46
My experience is that 600 mg is the optimal dose. Higher dose gave opposite effect and distorted smell.
I have no experience of American brands but I think standardized extracts with 0.3% hypericin are the best extracts.
Posted by sdb on December 8, 2006, at 10:12:12
In reply to Re: Linkadge, SJW Input Please, posted by dessbee on December 7, 2006, at 14:25:49
> My experience is that 600 mg is the optimal dose. Higher dose gave opposite effect and distorted smell.
>
> I have no experience of American brands but I think standardized extracts with 0.3% hypericin are the best extracts.
>
>You use ZE 117 600mg (d) right?
sdb
Posted by dessbee on December 8, 2006, at 10:51:21
In reply to Re: Linkadge, SJW Input Please }} dessbee, posted by sdb on December 8, 2006, at 10:12:12
Never heard of Ze 117.
The extract I tried was standardized 0.3% hypericin extract made by Boehringer Ingelheim. I have tried standardized 5% hyperforin extract (WS5570), but found this extract less efficient despite many studies claiming the opposite.
This is the end of the thread.
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