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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by johnnyj on March 21, 2007, at 14:06:26
Hello
I don't sleep well and since I can't drink milk hence I do not get much calcium. I have seen sites that say Cal supplementation is not neccessary but this worries me. I have taken Mag supplements in the past and got terrible insomnia. I haven't taken much calcium for the past couple of years and don't get much sun so I wonder if I may be vit D deficient?
My questions are:
Should I take the Mag in the morning and the Cal at night? And how much???
Does it matter when you take a Vit D supplement? Do I do this first before adding calcium?
It would be nice to get these through foods but I am not sure if I am doing that since I can't eat dairy.
Thank you
johnnyj
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 23, 2007, at 9:26:46
In reply to Cal/Mag/Vit D questions, posted by johnnyj on March 21, 2007, at 14:06:26
> Hello
Hey jj. Sorry, your post looks so lonesome, all this time. My capacity is limited, these days.
> I don't sleep well and since I can't drink milk hence I do not get much calcium. I have seen sites that say Cal supplementation is not neccessary but this worries me. I have taken Mag supplements in the past and got terrible insomnia. I haven't taken much calcium for the past couple of years and don't get much sun so I wonder if I may be vit D deficient?
Just to be clear, vitamin D sufficiency is independent of calcium sufficiency/intake, whereas calcium uptake is dependent on vitamin D sufficiency. If you're not getting much sun, and not consuming fish livers/liver oils, then you're likely deficient in D.
> My questions are:
>
> Should I take the Mag in the morning and the Cal at night? And how much???I've always thought of magnesium as sleep promoting. How much do you take?
A total supplement of around 300 mg/day magnesium is generally in the ballpark. Calcium, twice that. There are many variables to consider, however.
> Does it matter when you take a Vit D supplement?No. Once a week or once a day, it doesn't matter. With food, or on an empty stomach. It's total average daily dose that matters. As we learn more about how vitamin D works, the recommended intakes are rising. I think a minimum average intake of 1000 IU is essential. Observable signs of D deficiency don't completely resolve until average intake approaches 4000 IU, but expect medical science to lag a little bit on the intake recommendations.
> Do I do this first before adding calcium?
Doesn't matter.
> It would be nice to get these through foods but I am not sure if I am doing that since I can't eat dairy.
>
> Thank you
>
> johnnyjThere are lots of other foods with calcium. For example, if you eat canned salmon, the high temperature steam processing they use to cook the fish in the tins softens the bones enough that you can eat them. Even if you are fussy and pick the bones out, they're softer because some of the calcium has dissolved into the meat. Of course, you also get your omega-3s that way. Broccoli and other brassicas are high in calcium.
Here's the USDA table for calcium (rank order): http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR18/nutrlist/sr18w301.pdf
For magnesium:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR18/nutrlist/sr18w304.pdfLar
Posted by johnnyj on March 23, 2007, at 17:56:30
In reply to Re: Cal/Mag/Vit D questions » johnnyj, posted by Larry Hoover on March 23, 2007, at 9:26:46
Thank you Larry. I have missed you posting and am glad you have come back. I was away too for awhile.
I take a small amount of Mag in the morning nothing close to 300 mg a day. I believe that was the amount that gave me insomnia after a very good week. It just hit one night.
Larry, I have one other question. Do you have any idea what physical problems cause night sweats? I have had this and muscle twitching/spasms/cramps too. I am worried it is low calcium. Thank you for you thoughts they are much appreciated :)
BTW How are YOU? I hope you are doing well.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2007, at 9:43:04
In reply to Re: Cal/Mag/Vit D questions » Larry Hoover, posted by johnnyj on March 23, 2007, at 17:56:30
> Thank you Larry. I have missed you posting and am glad you have come back. I was away too for awhile.
Thanks, johnny. Glad you're back, too.
> I take a small amount of Mag in the morning nothing close to 300 mg a day. I believe that was the amount that gave me insomnia after a very good week. It just hit one night.
I wouldn't blame the magnesium for one bad night, especially if your dose is small, as you imply here.
> Larry, I have one other question. Do you have any idea what physical problems cause night sweats?Night sweats are pretty non-specific. Lots of things can cause them. Unfortunately, some of those things are quite serious. I'd suggest you talk to your doctor.
I had night sweats last fall, and I'm still be checked out, medically. It's becoming less of a possibility as time and testing moves on, but they still haven't ruled out cancer, in my case. I get what I hope is the last round of results on Wednesday.
> I have had this and muscle twitching/spasms/cramps too. I am worried it is low calcium.
Yes, could be low calcium. Could be oxidative stress, too. Vitamin E (mixed tocopherols) and vitamin C supps, along with calcium, should do the trick. How do you think your vitamin D levels are? If there's any chance you're deficient there, add vitamin D as well.
> Thank you for you thoughts they are much appreciated :)
You're welcome. Sorry I'm slow these days. I'm still bouncing back from being very ill.
> BTW How are YOU? I hope you are doing well.
>
> johnjSince I've started, I might as well finish the tale. Last summer, I started losing weight. Night sweats. Profound fatigue. Collapsing. I lost sixty pounds, all told. I also have a debilitating chronic pain condition, called complex regional pain syndrome. I thought it was just the stress of the pain thingie, but my pain doctor took one look at me, and thought cancer. I've never been sicker in my life. Add to that having to withdraw from oxycodone, at the point I was at my lowest. I just wanted to die. It's a wonder, but that feeling was profoundly motivating, and I've been slowly rebounding since then. We still haven't got an explanation for how sick I became, but we haven't found anything morbid yet, either. I'm being seen at a teaching hospital, so I think they might be testing me a little more than might be medically necessary, but there's nothing wrong with that. Thanks for asking.
How are you doing, jj?
Lar
Posted by teejay on April 2, 2007, at 10:22:51
In reply to Re: Cal/Mag/Vit D questions » johnnyj, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2007, at 9:43:04
Lar,
Real sorry to hear about your health issues. We all seem so wrapped up with our own problems that we often tend to take your great work for granted without giving much back.
Have a hug (((((((((Lar))))))))))
TJ
Posted by KayeBaby on April 3, 2007, at 22:35:38
In reply to Re: Cal/Mag/Vit D questions » johnnyj, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2007, at 9:43:04
>
> Since I've started, I might as well finish the tale. Last summer, I started losing weight. Night sweats. Profound fatigue. Collapsing. I lost sixty pounds, all told. I also have a debilitating chronic pain condition, called complex regional pain syndrome. I thought it was just the stress of the pain thingie, but my pain doctor took one look at me, and thought cancer. I've never been sicker in my life. Add to that having to withdraw from oxycodone, at the point I was at my lowest. I just wanted to die. It's a wonder, but that feeling was profoundly motivating, and I've been slowly rebounding since then. We still haven't got an explanation for how sick I became, but we haven't found anything morbid yet, either. I'm being seen at a teaching hospital, so I think they might be testing me a little more than might be medically necessary, but there's nothing wrong with that. Thanks for asking.
>
> How are you doing, jj?
>
> LarLarry,
Do you feel as though you have recovered from whatever that was? Maybe it was just some sneaky virus.Peace,
Kaye
Posted by johnnyj on April 6, 2007, at 16:40:27
In reply to Re: Cal/Mag/Vit D questions » johnnyj, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2007, at 9:43:04
Sorry to hear of your illness Larry but I am glad to hear you are bouncing back and you are seeing someone. I really like the U hospitals as they are quite inquisitive and over testing is a very good thing.
Me, well it has been a shaky year or two for me. I weaned off of tranzene, which was making me very depressed well over a year ago and also stopped the pamelor too. That left me on remeron and lithium. I weaned off the remeron which was painfull. Continued to take the lithium (unipolar) and didn't realize the problems it gave me. Finally weaned off and felt calmer but sleep would not regulate. I started getting earworms (repeated music) and saw a new doc who dx me with ocd/gad/anxiety. I have to tell you he was right. However, he turned out to be quite mean and threw me out of his office saying I was "wasting his time". I was trying the health route with exercise/food/etc., and he didn't like that. Slep would jsut not improve. 4 to 6 hours was not enough and without rest the mind just gets stuck and that was not good for the ocd.
I gutted in out for 8 months but a cold/flu left me unable to go on. I tried luvox and became agitated so tried some klonopin and started having panic attacks again and it sent me to the ER. Ambien made me more anxious too. Very odd reactions. Switched to paxil/xanax and became worse. Saw a new pdoc who is wonderful and she is cute too, haha. We tried low dose seroquel and at 50-mg the akathisia was terrible. Living hell that was and now I understand why people end it, I really wanted to die. So, back to remeron and I am evening out. BUT, I am looking again at alternative things to improve. I am taking it one day at a time and keeping an open mind. So, you could say I am bouncing back too. I will send up some prayers for you Larry. You derserve to feel better. Peace
regards
johnjPS you mentioned vit D deficiency in another thread and I suspect that too. No dairy and sun is not good. Thank you.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 11, 2007, at 6:55:42
In reply to Re: Cal/Mag/Vit D questions, posted by teejay on April 2, 2007, at 10:22:51
> Lar,
>
> Real sorry to hear about your health issues. We all seem so wrapped up with our own problems that we often tend to take your great work for granted without giving much back.Great work? Thanks. I just do what I do. I'm glad it's appreciated.
> Have a hug (((((((((Lar))))))))))
>
> TJThanks very much. I hadn't realized how much emotional tension was involved in waiting for these test results. It's a week later, and I'm still rebounding. I've got something going on, but it doesn't seem urgent/emergent.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 11, 2007, at 7:04:28
In reply to Re: Cal/Mag/Vit D questions, posted by KayeBaby on April 3, 2007, at 22:35:38
> Larry,
> Do you feel as though you have recovered from whatever that was? Maybe it was just some sneaky virus.
>
> Peace,
> KayeNo, not recovered. Still recovering. I don't think a virus was behind it. I'm almost certain now that it was caused by my chronic pain problem, complicated by an adverse reaction to long-term opiates. There's a named syndrome, called Downhill Spiral Syndrome, which matches my experiences. The medical system doesn't recognize it (except in one doctor's case, the guy who proposed the existence of it), but patient reports of precisely my symptoms led me to conclude it was opiate related. Withdrawing from oxycodone led to remission of the symptoms, but my body had been through quite an ordeal. For my pain doctor to assume active cancer, I must have looked/acted like hell. And that was before I did the withdrawal, which I had to manage alone. Sometimes stubborn is a good thing.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 11, 2007, at 7:27:55
In reply to Re: Cal/Mag/Vit D questions » Larry Hoover, posted by johnnyj on April 6, 2007, at 16:40:27
> Sorry to hear of your illness Larry but I am glad to hear you are bouncing back and you are seeing someone. I really like the U hospitals as they are quite inquisitive and over testing is a very good thing.
Best physical I've ever had. It was interesting to be privy to all the hypotheses/debates. They were a little surprised that I spoke medical geek, but it also saved a lot of time.
> Me, well it has been a shaky year or two for me. I weaned off of tranzene, which was making me very depressed well over a year ago and also stopped the pamelor too. That left me on remeron and lithium. I weaned off the remeron which was painfull.
That was one of my worst withdrawals. I hear ya. Particularly after going off tranxene, I suspect your insomnia was bad?
> Continued to take the lithium (unipolar) and didn't realize the problems it gave me. Finally weaned off and felt calmer but sleep would not regulate.
'To sleep. Perchance to dream.', said Shakespeare. More like, 'perchance to sleep', eh?
Of all the variables in my health puzzle, restorative sleep is the most essential element. I still struggle with it, virtually every night.
> I started getting earworms (repeated music) and saw a new doc who dx me with ocd/gad/anxiety. I have to tell you he was right.
I've got to say it's been a while since I had an earworm. I feel for you.
> However, he turned out to be quite mean and threw me out of his office saying I was "wasting his time". I was trying the health route with exercise/food/etc., and he didn't like that.
I guess you weren't accepting medication from him? If that's all he offers, then I can understand his reaction.
> Slep would jsut not improve. 4 to 6 hours was not enough and without rest the mind just gets stuck and that was not good for the ocd.
It's really hard to know what to do.
> I gutted in out for 8 months but a cold/flu left me unable to go on. I tried luvox and became agitated so tried some klonopin and started having panic attacks again and it sent me to the ER. Ambien made me more anxious too. Very odd reactions. Switched to paxil/xanax and became worse. Saw a new pdoc who is wonderful and she is cute too, haha. We tried low dose seroquel and at 50-mg the akathisia was terrible. Living hell that was and now I understand why people end it, I really wanted to die. So, back to remeron and I am evening out.
You can combine mirtazapine with lots of different meds, too. It's quite possible that you're just medication sensitive, so consider low dose augments. Pediatric prozac liquid, e.g. You could add just a couple mg/day, and titrate to any level. I used it to help drag me out of the profound depression that followed opiate withdrawal. And, prozac withdrawal is no big deal, because of the lengthy half life. It self-tapers.
> BUT, I am looking again at alternative things to improve. I am taking it one day at a time and keeping an open mind. So, you could say I am bouncing back too. I will send up some prayers for you Larry. You derserve to feel better. Peace
>
> regards
> johnjThanks, jj. And, back atcha.
> PS you mentioned vit D deficiency in another thread and I suspect that too. No dairy and sun is not good. Thank you.
You're welcome.
Lar
Posted by teejay on April 11, 2007, at 21:06:07
In reply to Re: Cal/Mag/Vit D questions » johnnyj, posted by Larry Hoover on April 11, 2007, at 7:27:55
Lar.......real glad to hear the results didnt show anything catastrophic. A friend of mine who had a triple by-pass a few years ago and is a little overweight (15 UK stones) suddenly lost like 4 stones for no apparent reason. His doctor said only one disease on the planet causes weight loss like that and thats cancer but he has had a barrage of tests and runs all clear for everything major and shows ZERO signs of cancer. Sometimes the human body just likes to play tricks on itself it seems. Hope you get to the bottom of it anyway, and glad so far your results say it's nowt serious.
Johnj.......check out my recent threads regarding histadelia. Now before you get the wrong idea and thing my 'treatment' plan is a cure all, its not BUT i've been ill for almost 2 decades now and this seems so far to be the best mode of attack against my symptoms yet. It's slow to work and sometimes I have set backs but I have to say on the whole, I feel better now than i've felt in some time. Too early to give a long term call on my physical/mental health but for the first time in a long time I actually see the future with some form of optimism. Take a look and see if any of my remarks or the replies I got might help you in some way.
(((((((((group hug)))))))))
TJ
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