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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lao Tzu on December 24, 2009, at 10:27:53
The vitamins that seem to work the best for schizophrenia are vitamins E and C, zinc and manganese, and some of the B vitamins, such as B1, B6, and B12, Niacin---folic acid, too, in some people.
Zinc and manganese are a little tricky to work with. First of all, you need to establish a dosage that is comfortable. For me, 10mg of manganese in the morning is all I can tolerate per day. I've tried 20mg, but it makes me uncomfortable. The dosage of zinc is variable for each person. The only type I use is zinc picolinate. Solgar makes a zinc picolinate, 22mg per tablet. Start off with one tablet per day, and you may notice that it isn't quite enough for your symptoms. Then what I do is cut a second tablet in half and take a total of 33mg per day. If that isn't enough, go up to 44mg per day (2 tablets). For awhile, I was okay with two tablets per day. Then I noticed that it pooped out by late afternoon. I soon realized that perhaps the key was WHEN I took the zinc. I started taking 44mg in late afternoon, not morning. Then at bedtime, I added another 22mg for a total of 66mg per day. I noticed that the following day, I didn't need to take zinc in the morning and that I was feeling okay until late afternoon when I had to take more zinc. I continue to take manganese in the morning only and zinc in the late afternoon and at bedtime. This schedule seems to work well. Your body will get used to this schedule over time, but you may have to start out taking zinc in the morning. Whatever works for you. I just feel better when I take zinc at a different time than the manganese, not together.
Vitamins E and C are very helpful for mood. Again, dosage is very important. I always take at least 300IU of vitamin E at bedtime as this helps with relaxation. During the daytime, you need to establish what dosage of vitamin E seems comfortable. You could start off with 100IU, then 200IU, then 300IU and finally, 400IU. For a long time, I established that 200IU was the most comfortable during the daytime. In winter, however, I needed a little more so I established that 400IU worked better.
Vitamin C is very helpful if you take just enough. For me, I can only tolerate 500mg per day taken in the morning with vitamin E. Vitamin C works better when taken with Vitamin E. However, for some people, they may need 1,000mg or more per day.
Certain B vitamins are important for depression. These include B1, B6, B12, and others like folic acid and Niacin. Once again, getting the correct dosage is important and not overdoing it with the B's. I find that I need 200mg of B1 per day: 100mg in the morning and 100mg at bedtime for insomnia. B6 is very variable for each person. I take 50mg of B6 per day. Some people may need 100mg per day. I find that B12 is helpful for depression. I take only 500mcg per day. I can't tolerate folic acid, so I don't take that one. Some people will need to take some. The best way to know whether you need folic acid is to try taking 400mcg per day for a few days and see if you feel better. If it isn't enough raise it to 800mcg per day. Niacin is one B vitamin that makes me feel worse if I take it during the daytime. I only take it at bedtime to help with relaxation and sleep. I used to take plain old Niacin, sustained-release, but later I found that No-flush Niacin worked better for me. No-flush Niacin is inositol attached to Niacin molecules. I only take 500mg (1 capsule) of No-flush Niacin at bedtime. Now, it is known in orthomolecular circles that Niacin is the primary vitamin to take if you have schizophrenia, upwards of 3 grams or more per day in some cases spread out over the whole day. This never worked for me since I am already taking an antipsychotic medication. Still, high dose Niacin may be a treatment option for schizophrenics opposed to taking medication.I hope this information is helpful for those of you with bipolar depression and/or schizophrenia.
Posted by SLS on December 24, 2009, at 10:38:40
In reply to Vitamins for schizophrenia/bipolar depression, posted by Lao Tzu on December 24, 2009, at 10:27:53
Hi.
Thanks for the informative post.
I have bipolar depression. I had used megadoses of B vitamins and vitamins C and E for years in the hopes that I might at least feel more energetic. It did not help.
What are your thoughts regarding the use of n-acetylcysteine (NAC) for these conditions?
I am also interested in coenzyme q10, as some investigators are beginning to focus on possible mitochondrial abnormalities in these illnesses.
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on December 26, 2009, at 15:48:09
In reply to Re: Vitamins for schizophrenia/bipolar depression » Lao Tzu, posted by SLS on December 24, 2009, at 10:38:40
Lao Tzu is just amazing. Pops in now and then with some really good pointers, exact doses, timing, everything. Obviously it will vary from person to person, but what a perfect example of showing how to do it. Great job Lao.
Scott, since you know I have had a lot of involvement with the amalgam and infection forums and books and such, ya know, there are tons of supplement suggestions. I mean, it's insane. But there are a few standouts that are mentioned almost all the time as "must-haves". CoQ10 is one of those. There are very few things that come up again and again at the top of the list no matter where you look, but CoQ10 is one of them. It is tame enough, so definitely worthy trying. The two most reported benefits by actual users are increased energy/endurance and increased sense of wellbeing.
> Hi.
>
> Thanks for the informative post.
>
> I have bipolar depression. I had used megadoses of B vitamins and vitamins C and E for years in the hopes that I might at least feel more energetic. It did not help.
>
> What are your thoughts regarding the use of n-acetylcysteine (NAC) for these conditions?
>
> I am also interested in coenzyme q10, as some investigators are beginning to focus on possible mitochondrial abnormalities in these illnesses.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on December 26, 2009, at 16:22:23
In reply to Re: Vitamins for schizophrenia/bipolar depression » SLS, posted by bleauberry on December 26, 2009, at 15:48:09
Hi BB.
I need to be methodical in my application of the substances I plan to experiment with. I am going to add Effexor first, and follow up with NAC and CoQ10 sequentially. I sometimes experience negative reactions to supposedly benign substances such that it would confound my attempts to evaluate cause and effect by adding several agents together at the same time. I would like to use NAC as a "background" neuroprotectant. It sounds nice in theory. I had wanted to use lithium in this role, but it had negative effects on my mood.
- Scott
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 18, 2010, at 16:55:53
In reply to Re: Vitamins for schizophrenia/bipolar depression » Lao Tzu, posted by SLS on December 24, 2009, at 10:38:40
I have tried COQ10 with mixed results. I could only tolerate low dosages, so for me it didn't really work, OR perhaps I didn't stick with it long enough for my body to adjust to it. It's worth a try. I started off with 30mg, but found that dose was too small. N-Acetyl-Cysteine, no, I didn't like it. I think it would work much better for bipolars experiencing manic phases. I have mainly depression and felt the NAC made it worse. I have heard the mitochondrial dysfunction theory of bipolar. Some people have tried a combo of alpha lipoic acid and Acetly-L-carnitine. The combination seems to work better than either alone. But again, I don't know how effective it is. Seems we'd have to wait for medications that address mitochondrial dysfunction.
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 18, 2010, at 17:07:28
In reply to Re: Vitamins for schizophrenia/bipolar depression » SLS, posted by bleauberry on December 26, 2009, at 15:48:09
Have you tried using higher dosages of zinc picolinate as well as manganese? They both can help with energy, but different people react differently to zinc. Some people get energized. Some people have a worsening of depression. I have schizophrenia/bipolar and zinc picolinate and manganese are definitely beneficial to me, but it's hard to say how someone else might react. I have a system where I take my manganese in the morning and my zinc in the late afternoon and a little at bedtime. You have to get your body on some sort of schedule with these two.
Also, have you tried a little fish oil and a little borage oil? I find that they both improve my energy to a certain degree, but I'm talking about low dosages, say 1,500mg of fish oil and 1,300mg of borage oil taken at different times of the day. That's all. A low dosage of each. It works for me. Also, there is a form of B1 called benfotiamine which has been shown to improve energy levels. I have taken it before for many months and did experience increased energy. Something to consider maybe.
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