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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 6, 2011, at 11:01:47
Lately, I have been feeling much better by increasing my magnesium and calcium at bedtime and by increasing my daily B6 dosage. Now I am up to 800mg of calcium and magnesium at bedtime. The dosage I was at was 500mg and it didn't seem to be enough. By increasing the dosage I seem to sleep much better plus my depression the following day is improved. I was taking only 100mg of B6 per day for a long time, but I noticed my depression slowly improving by increasing the daily dosage slowly. Now I am more stabilized at 200mg of B6 daily. I do believe that at least some people would benefit from higher dosages of B6 and also the calcium and magnesium, especially if you have a lot of restless nights, but there are many other vitamins and minerals that might be necessary for other people. Say, for example, higher dosages of folic acid for some people and Niacin for some types of schizophrenics, not to mention antioxidants like vitamin C, E, and selenium if you have a lot of oxidative stress. Zinc and B12 will help others as well. The B12 is interesting because correct dosing is very important. There may be people who are very sensitive to the B12 dosage like myself. I've tried many different dosages of B12, and I seem to stabilize on 375micrograms per day. 250mcg is insufficient and 500mcg seems to much for me, so be wary of the dosage you are using. Initially, when I first started on B12, my depression was greatly improved with 750micrograms everyday for several months. After that time period, I noticed I needed a lower dosage for maintenance. If you are concerned about the dosage, try the Schiff brand of B12(cyanocobalamin) which comes in 250mcg tablets. What I like about these tablets is that you have better control over your dosage. The tablets are scored so you can split them in half if you believe you are getting too much. I once read an article on elderly people stabilizing on 375micrograms of B12 daily for depression. I tried this by taking one 250mcg tablet plus one-half of a second tablet, and lo and behold, it works for me. Initially, if you are B12 deficient or have anemia, you may have to take larger dosages of B12 in the beginning to address a deficiency, but later on you may find that a lower maintenance dose will work just fine.
Another great vitamin is folic acid for SOME depressives, not all. Personally, I get worse on folic acid, but many depressives improve dramatically upon using this vitamin. Do a search for undermethylation and overmethylation and you may discover which category you fit in as far as depression is concerned. There is also the category of Pyroluria, which manifests in a depression caused by a double deficiency of B6 and zinc, and in some cases other nutrients like manganese and evening primrose oil or borage oil. In my case, I always tended towards a high histamine and undermethylated state, which is why calcium, magnesium, and B6 work very well for me, but everyone is different and will respond differently depending on the type of nutrient deficiencies that you as an individual have. I am just trying to make people aware that the use of common nutrients can help many people recover from depression to a point where you can function better and feel better.
Niacin is a tricky one. I think it helps some people with depression, especially if you are a very anxious type, but I found for myself that I could get along without using this one. That's just me, though. What I am unsure about is dosage for Niacin. Some people may only need a very low dosage. Others, like some schizophrenics, need up to 3,000mg per day to remain stable. The flush test will tell you if you can tolerate higher dosages. I am not so sure that most unipolar depressives absolutely need higher dosages of this vitamin, but some schizophrenics actually do very well on high dosages along with Vitamin C, according to Abraham Hoffer and Carl Pfeiffer.
There is some good information on orthomolecular medicine for free on the web, but if you want more comprehensive information there are many books as well you can order from Amazon. Good luck to all of you!!!
Lao
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 6, 2011, at 11:43:50
In reply to Orthomolecular medicine for depression, posted by Lao Tzu on January 6, 2011, at 11:01:47
I like your post. I've been taking lots of niacinamide for a while now, and I must say its an OK anxiolytic and it helps my skin, but I still get pretty severe depressive episodes. Luckily, all the supplements I've been taking seem to make medications work better, so I'm on only 2 drugs at this point, instead of 3-6 like back in the day.
Thanks again for your helpful post.
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 6, 2011, at 20:35:11
In reply to Thanks, posted by Christ_empowered on January 6, 2011, at 11:43:50
Not a problem. I'm glad to help if I can. Do you still get severe depressive episodes despite being on medication? An antidepressant alone didn't help me because I am bipolar/schizophrenic. I had to add a mood stabilizer like Lamictal to improve the depression. After that, I started dabbling in vitamins, minerals, and fatty acids which over time further improved my mood and depression, but I always still have some lingering symptoms of schizophrenia. It never is cleared up completely despite all I do. Over the course of four years, I have been formulating an individualized nutrient regimen, including optimal dosages and generally, taking the nutrients over the course of the day instead of all at once in the morning. This method tends to work better for me. Finding optimal dosages can take some time. If you respond well to any particular nutrient, then you have to investigate what the optimal dosage ranges are for that nutrient and ultimately, the dosages that you most benefit from. Determining if you are an overmethylated, undermethylated, or pyroluric would give you some idea of the correct nutrients to include in your regimen. I am basically doing all the work myself because I have all the time I need to do it. Maybe that's a little foolish since I really had no experience in naturopathic medicine, and I guess I've been playing doctor. Fortunately, I have been getting better because of the combination of nutrients and medicine. I try to work with the most common nutrients, not all these wacky supplements on the market today. Basic vitamins, minerals, fatty acids, and also, in some cases, certain amino acids. I let the medication work on the most severe symptoms which the nutrients can't always touch.
Lao
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 7, 2011, at 9:48:13
In reply to Re: Thanks, posted by Lao Tzu on January 6, 2011, at 20:35:11
Yeah, I still get depression even though I'm on Abilify. Even though they now market it as an anti-depressant augmenting agent, I think its really better for mania and psychosis than it is for depression. I'm also on Celexa now, and that's working pretty well.
I don't think the supplements can do everything that meds can do, but I have noticed a certain synergy between my meds and my supplements. My guess is that all the vitamins and supplements help me respond to meds better.
Posted by morgan miller on January 7, 2011, at 15:23:59
In reply to Re: Thanks, posted by Christ_empowered on January 7, 2011, at 9:48:13
>Yeah, I still get depression even though I'm on Abilify. Even though they now market it as an anti-depressant augmenting agent, I think its really better for mania and psychosis than it is for depression.
I think Abilify works differently at the low doses it is prescribed as an anitdepressant adjunct. You may be right about it being more effective for mania and psychosis though.
What else are you doing for your depression? I think you mentioned being in therapy. What about group therapy?
Are you able to start making social connections again? Are you able to get out and have fun with friends? These things would greatly improve depressive symptoms, if you can function well enough to do them of course.
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 7, 2011, at 17:33:05
In reply to Re: Thanks, posted by morgan miller on January 7, 2011, at 15:23:59
I'm doing individual therapy. All the group sessions I know of are aimed towards dealing with Severe Mental Illness, and I'm kind of scared to get into one...I get that I have severe mental illness, I just don't want it to become too big a part of my personal identity. Get what I'm saying? I'll think about it, though...
I have been able to get out and do stuff with friends on occasion. Now that I'm medicated and reasonably stable, it helps to get out, and I realize now, more than I did before, the importance of creating a social life for myself.
Posted by morgan miller on January 10, 2011, at 19:59:14
In reply to Re: Thanks, posted by Christ_empowered on January 7, 2011, at 17:33:05
>All the group sessions I know of are aimed towards dealing with Severe Mental Illness, and I'm kind of scared to get into one...I get that I have severe mental illness, I just don't want it to become too big a part of my personal identity. Get what I'm saying? I'll think about it, though...
I totally get what you're saying. My therapist was hesitant to give in to the bipolar diagnosis because she did not want to label me.
I was actually talking about psychodynamic group therapy with people that are there for many different reasons. This type of therapy is great at helping us both heal from past wounds and improve the way we function in relationships. The idea is that positive relationships are the basis for happiness and fulfillment in life. If we can improve our relationships and attract better people into our lives, we can greatly improve our well being. The relationships we build in group therapy including the feedback and interactions, along with the supervision and input by the therapists, contribute to the psychodynamic therapeutic process. Sorry if I didn't explain this as well as I could have. My hurting brain is on the mend.
Good to hear you are feeling better and able to get out hand have a social life.
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 11, 2011, at 14:33:56
In reply to Re: Thanks, posted by morgan miller on January 10, 2011, at 19:59:14
Yes, I do agree with you Morgan. By the way, how are you doing? Having healthy relationships could go a long way in improving depression. I think it goes beyond just a biochemical theory, but in severe cases of mental illness, a biochemical basis is very profound and can not be reversed without some medication and/or therapy. Once you deal with the biochemistry of depression, getting out and having relationships, getting a job, etc. etc. will improve the depression greatly only if you are stable. I do agree with that.
The vitamins I take in addition to the medication help even out my mood and make the depression bearable, but I can't say they help me to get out much. I think I am stuck in the psychology of being labeled as mentally ill. This can put a damper on your social life. For instance, I see this really pretty girl at the pharmacy where I pick up my medication. She has waited on me so many times and she seems like an angel to me. Yet because I have labeled myself mentally ill, not to mention no job, living at home with parents, etc. etc. I talk myself out of starting a conversation with her. I think that I am damaged goods, and what good would I be to her if I have a hard enough time just taking care of myself? Maybe I've become a bit pessimistic since this all started, which was many years ago. Anyway, I know in my mind, befriending her could be the best thing that ever happened to me, but maybe I am just delusional. Maybe everything is a fantasy to me. I've learned that life isn't always how you picture it. Severe mentally ill people can have a distorted view of life, but I know at least part of me is normal, and that is the part that would like to love someone. That would help the depression as far as I'm concerned.Lao
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 11, 2011, at 17:11:38
In reply to Re: Thanks, posted by Lao Tzu on January 11, 2011, at 14:33:56
Yeah, I think its hard to have healthy relationships when you're severely mentally ill. Like me--I'm fortunate to have parents who are supporting me while I look for work and go back to school, but I still have to deal with the stigma of being jobless...even though I live in my own place, its still there.
Anyway, I have a couple friends who actually encourage me to get out of the house and hang out. One of them may be able to hook me up with a part-time job. Things are looking up :-)
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 17, 2011, at 10:02:21
In reply to Orthomolecular medicine for depression, posted by Lao Tzu on January 6, 2011, at 11:01:47
I've gathered information on the subtypes of depression:Overmethylation, Undermethylation, and Pyroluria and I've formulated a nutrient regiment that works for me. The following is a synopsis of my regiment and dosages:
B Vitamins:
B1---100mg in the morning and 100mg at bedtime
B2---50mg at bedtime
B6---150mg per day (dosage will vary from person to person)
B12---375mcg per day (Again, dosage will vary from person to person).
Vitamin C---500mg per day (in the morning)
Vitamin E---200IU in the morning and 400IU at bedtime
Selenium (yeast-based)---50mcg in the afternoon and 50mcg at bedtime
Calcium---750mg at bedtime
Magnesium---775mg at bedtime
Zinc picolinate---44mg in the morning
Fish oil---1,500mg per day
Borage oil---1,300mg per day
Melatonin---1mg at bedtimeThis regiment has proven effective for me, but I also must tell you that I also take medication, and if that is the case, dosages of each nutrient must be tailored to the individual, taking into consideration the effects of medication on depression. Note that this regiment probably won't work for everyone as you might be included in a different subtype than myself. I tend to gravitate towards the Undermethylated/High Histamine subtype. Some people may actually need more Folic acid, B12, and Niacin if you are an Overmethylated/Low histamine type.
Lao
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 23, 2011, at 10:14:57
In reply to Re: Orthomolecular medicine for depression, posted by Lao Tzu on January 17, 2011, at 10:02:21
The key in orthomolecular medicine is to get the "right nutrients" for individual need plus optimum dosages. For example, someone with low histamine might do very well on folic acid and Niacin, whereas someone with high histamine may do better on calcium, magnesium, B6 and methionine, and folic acid would be contraindicated in someone with high histamine. So it all depends on your individual makeup. I tend to do better on supplements used for a high histamine makeup and do worse on things like Niacin and folic acid. It also may take some time to experiment with dosages until you find the optimum dosages for you. Too little of the nutrients and you still might have symptoms, too much and you may experience side effects. Like anything, balance is the key. Eliminate any supplements that tend to make you worse and stick to basic vitamins, minerals, and fatty acids that help you. Use the supplements that your body would use on a daily basis to stay healthy. In some cases, a combination of medicine and nutrients works very well for some people. Other people do well on medication alone. Still other people do well on nutrients alone. It really depends on how you react to various medications and nutrients. I do think that one has to be very proactive in discovering their personal regiments because perhaps, medical doctors are not always trained in the use of nutrition for depression. Read books, surf the web, ask people what they have done, you will find out what works for you and what does not.
Lao
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