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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Declan on July 25, 2006, at 19:18:49
I think that Buddhists and other knowledgeable types say that egos are just fictional entities. Some of you would have had the feeling of engulfment, when you can't say no and your will is taken over.
A lot of my problems (if problems they be) come from an invuluntary desire to merge. (This is sounding like William Burroughs, as in 'Declan just schlooped into someone else'.)
A second's thought provides the psychodynamic thingo...recreating the absent mother-child bond. But anyway, that's just me....but identity?
I was once diagnosed as having a lack of identity. This was true insofar as I would find myself talking in other people's voices, which is going too far for community standards.I wish I had something more to say. Anyone else got stuff to say on the subject of identity?
I shall close with those beautiful words from the old Communion Service...'That we may evermore dwell in Him and He in us'
Declan
Posted by Racer on July 25, 2006, at 20:55:49
In reply to Identity? Is this about finding yourself?, posted by Declan on July 25, 2006, at 19:18:49
>
> I wish I had something more to say. Anyone else got stuff to say on the subject of identity?
>
> DeclanI don't know what I wanted to say when I clicked the Reply button. I guess I wanted to add my voice to the question, although I have no lack of identity -- I do have a lack of confidence in my identity, though...
How to explain this? I am me most strongly when I'm alone. That "me" is the one I think of myself as being, the one that I show to my best friends, the one that I try to show in the rest of the world. But sometimes, when I'm frightened mostly, I can't find myself. Instead, I get either the frightened child I used to be, or the frightened adult I've sometimes been. And I don't feel quite so much like myself. Does that make sense? It feels like emotional vertigo, is the best I can describe it. I'm even literally off balance, if I'm standing up at the time.
So, my identity is there. I know who I am. But I can't hold on to my confidence in myself when I'm faced with certain kinds of conflict. In those cases, I get dizzy, and turn into a miserable, frozen, terrified child. I guess it's safe to say that she's part of my identity, but not a part I want to spend time with...
Anyone else have anything to say?
And Declan? Maybe if you ask yourself who you are when you're alone? (I forget: how old are you? That might be part of the problem -- I know I wasn't all that secure in my identity until I was in my late 20s...)
Posted by Phillipa on July 25, 2006, at 22:55:48
In reply to Re: Identity? Is this about finding yourself? » Declan, posted by Racer on July 25, 2006, at 20:55:49
He He I know how old Declan is. Old enough to have teenagers. And Racer I know exactly what you mean. I know I was told I have problem with object consistancy. Melanie Klein. Love Phillipa comes from babyhood when your Mother disappears in another room you think she's completly gone and will never come back and never existed. Which is why I don't like to be alone.
Posted by Racer on July 26, 2006, at 0:39:55
In reply to Re: Identity? Is this about finding yourself? » Racer, posted by Phillipa on July 25, 2006, at 22:55:48
> And Racer I know exactly what you mean. I know I was told I have problem with object consistancy.
I don't think you do know what I mean, Phillipa, because what I meant has nothing to do with Object Constancy. I live my life in the shades of grey, and know that there's good and bad in most of the people I love, and I don't confuse the role with the person filling it.
I guess I'm just not very good at communicating verbally sometimes.
Posted by llrrrpp on July 26, 2006, at 2:20:24
In reply to Identity? Is this about finding yourself?, posted by Declan on July 25, 2006, at 19:18:49
Self Not-self.
I like a series of talks by Gil Fronsdale. He's got a PhD in Buddhist studies. you can download his MP3s for free from some website.
I had a couple of a ha moments when listening to him describe the buddhist idea of identity. mainly it comes down to exclusion. Self is not what you own. Self is not what you believe to be true, Self is not what you desire. Self is something you do. The actions of the moment define your identity. not the actions of the past, or the actions of the future. There's no room for should-a would-a could-a's. It's what you ARE, no less no more. simple huh?
ha!
Ego, Self, Identity, Individual. I'm guessing you're using these terms differently than I'm using them. It was SOOOO hard for me to talk about SELF to my psychologist. I felt like I was faking it. like I was using the psychologists "lingo" for the sake of discussion, even though I don't believe in the self as Western psychology typically uses this term -- not that there's some set, agreed-upon definition.
I'm still having a lot of problems on this board. I just don't know how to talk about self-esteem, when my concept of 'self' is so different.
-ll
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 3:32:34
In reply to Re: Identity? Is this about finding yourself? » Racer, posted by Phillipa on July 25, 2006, at 22:55:48
Yeah, I'm 53. Melanie Klein, hey? Makes me feel nostalgic.
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 12:59:28
In reply to Re: Identity? Is this about finding yourself? » Declan, posted by Racer on July 25, 2006, at 20:55:49
Hi Racer
It's interesting how the way to overcome fear can be through anger. (Maybe that's not interesting, but instaed is obvious, explaining much about social life these days. But it's interesting to me because I kinda assume fear is the natural state.) So perfect fear driveth out love, and perfect anger driveth out fear?
There's a scene from "Happiness", where our heroine, after her latest social defeat, is walking down the street, only to be given a lift by one of her students. He kindly takes her (a long way) home and leaves immediately sex is over. In order to make unneccessary and unwanted apologies to this man's wife, Joy(!) takes some flowers to the marital home, after giving which she asks for her guitar and stereo system back. Our Russian says 'sure', but asks $1,000 in return. Joy says she only has $500 in her account. He says 'That'll do'' and they go off to get it.
You could describe this as being about emotional vertigo and being off balance, or about ego boundaries so fragile that they are almost open. This is my favourite film, dark, funny and terrible. Number 2 on the link.
Declan
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 13:02:55
In reply to Re: Identity? Is this about finding yourself? » Racer, posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 12:59:28
Dunno how to make them work
Posted by sleepygirl on July 26, 2006, at 17:52:59
In reply to Re: Identity? Is this about finding yourself? » Declan, posted by llrrrpp on July 26, 2006, at 2:20:24
> I had a couple of a ha moments when listening to him describe the buddhist idea of identity. mainly it comes down to exclusion. Self is not what you own. Self is not what you believe to be true, Self is not what you desire. Self is something you do. The actions of the moment define your identity. not the actions of the past, or the actions of the future. There's no room for should-a would-a could-a's. It's what you ARE, no less no more. simple huh?
>so that could be everchanging no?
I will have to review more about the buddhist philosophy...
with regard to the past though I wonder, does it not determine much of the present- like the impact of a rain drop making rings on standing water?
does a "self" then really even exist as a noun, or is it a verb?
Posted by sleepygirl on July 26, 2006, at 18:01:11
In reply to Identity? Is this about finding yourself?, posted by Declan on July 25, 2006, at 19:18:49
> I was once diagnosed as having a lack of identity. This was true insofar as I would find myself talking in other people's voices, which is going too far for community standards.I used to have an ongoing conversation in my head with representations of other people all the time- they in fact were "my thoughts"- I don't think I could feel comfortable at first "thinking" unless I could do it with someone else-the someone I created in my head. Now I "think" and I don't have to be imagining anyone else in particular
I know this sounds weird...what can I say?
> I wish I had something more to say. Anyone else got stuff to say on the subject of identity?
>
> I shall close with those beautiful words from the old Communion Service...'That we may evermore dwell in Him and He in us'but aren't we always "internalizing" our experiences of other people, do they sometimes affect what we believe about ourselves. aren't we always "taking things in"- do we take it in, mull it around and spit it out again though or keep it?
interesting topic :-)
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 19:03:22
In reply to Re: Identity? Is this about finding yourself? » llrrrpp, posted by sleepygirl on July 26, 2006, at 17:52:59
Buddhist stuff always ends up with something like "Can the tongue taste itself?", about which I find it hard to say anything useful.
I dunno about the sense of self. I think of the expression on the face of a new born, just watching, a very neutral observing, open look.
Maybe that's what those spiritual types are talking about.I used to have such conversations in my head, back when I was younger.
Conversations about conversations about conversations.
Throw some acid into the mix......
Posted by llrrrpp on July 26, 2006, at 19:20:36
In reply to A Wilderness of Mirrors, posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 19:03:22
yeah, definining the "self" is a mess. And for us to understand buddhism is so difficult. Like any major world religion, there are different interpretations/translations. It can be really difficult to "say anything useful" as you diplomatically put it.
Ultimately, I think many people just try to be good and not to break any major "rules" of buddhism, without trying to figure out the logic (or absence thereof).
try not to have too many conversations with your conversations. that sounds like it could lead to a traffic accident
-ll
Posted by sleepygirl on July 26, 2006, at 20:19:13
In reply to A Wilderness of Mirrors, posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 19:03:22
> I dunno about the sense of self. I think of the expression on the face of a new born, just watching, a very neutral observing, open look.
> Maybe that's what those spiritual types are talking about.that sounds nice, I like it- just 'being' without the "noise"
>
> I used to have such conversations in my head, back when I was younger.
> Conversations about conversations about conversations.
> Throw some acid into the mix......oh yes, used to drive me crazy!!
Posted by sleepygirl on July 26, 2006, at 20:20:20
In reply to Re: A Wilderness of Mirrors » Declan, posted by llrrrpp on July 26, 2006, at 19:20:36
> try not to have too many conversations with your conversations. that sounds like it could lead to a traffic accident
:-) that was funny
Posted by Jakeman on July 26, 2006, at 22:47:45
In reply to Identity? Is this about finding yourself?, posted by Declan on July 25, 2006, at 19:18:49
Interesting thread, here's my take.
Early on we develop an ego self to deal with the world. It's there to help us survive and pass on our genes. Eventually it becomes our persona, our face that we present to the world. It's very much needed, but it's also where neurosis gets ingrained. For example if you got bit by a dog as a child, you may be afraid of dogs the rest of your life.
But beneath that there is the deep or inner self. Buddhists may call it our Buddha nature. If you are not living in accordance with your inner self, symptoms appear. It could be depression, insomnia, addiction. Sometimes messages from the deep self come in our dreams. Most people ignore the deep self until mid-life. They may discover then that the ego's accomplishments, like a good job and recognition, leave them feeling empty and they start searching. Others settle.
The deep self is always pushing us to grow up into full realization of our potential as human beings. To find joy. The Jungians call it individuation but it's not always an easy path.
Many guys I know feel this energy come up in their late 40's and quell it with alchohol and watching sports.
So what is your identity? It's more than learned behavior and ego. It's beyond that.
enough for now, Jake.
> I think that Buddhists and other knowledgeable types say that egos are just fictional entities. Some of you would have had the feeling of engulfment, when you can't say no and your will is taken over.
>
> A lot of my problems (if problems they be) come from an invuluntary desire to merge. (This is sounding like William Burroughs, as in 'Declan just schlooped into someone else'.)
>
> A second's thought provides the psychodynamic thingo...recreating the absent mother-child bond. But anyway, that's just me....but identity?
> I was once diagnosed as having a lack of identity. This was true insofar as I would find myself talking in other people's voices, which is going too far for community standards.
>
> I wish I had something more to say. Anyone else got stuff to say on the subject of identity?
>
> I shall close with those beautiful words from the old Communion Service...'That we may evermore dwell in Him and He in us'
>
> Declan
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2006, at 1:23:22
In reply to Bloody Links » Declan, posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 13:02:55
> Dunno how to make them work
You got a DVD rather than a book, that was a good start. But if you don't want the first match, scroll down and click another. For example, "Happiness". Does that help?
Bob
Posted by Declan on July 29, 2006, at 12:55:36
In reply to Re: Bloody Links, posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2006, at 1:23:22
Posted by Jost on July 31, 2006, at 22:43:23
In reply to Re: Bloody Links, posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2006, at 1:23:22
Here's the precis for "Happiness":
"When a young woman (Jane Adams) rejects her current overweight suitor (Jon Lovitz) in a restaurant, he unexpectedly places a curse on her. The film then moves on to her sisters. One (Cynthia Stevenson) is a happily married woman with a psychiatrist husband (Dylan Baker) and three kids. Unfortunately the husband develops an unnatural fascination for his 11 year old son's male classmates, fantasizes about mass killing in a park, and masturbates to teen magazines. One of his patients (Philip Seymour Hoffman) has an unrequited fascination for the third sister (Lara Flynn Boyle). Meanwhile the apparently stable 40 year marriage of the sister's parents (Ben Gazzara, Louise Lasser) suddenly unravels when he decides he has had enough and wants to live a hermit's life in Florida. Obviously, the whole movie is slightly warped in its viewpoint and certainly presents abnormal relationships among all of its parties."
Am I missing something, or aren't the "sister's parents" in the next-to-last sentence ("the apparently stable 40 year marriage...") the supposed protagonist's (ie, the woman played by Jane Adams) parents, too? And if so, wouldn't it make more sense to say, "the woman's parents"-- instead?
And what happened to this woman? Does she appear in the movie after the first scene with Jon Lovitz?
And how likely is it that a psychiatrist--even if he's fascinated with his 11 year old son's classmates, which is already improbable, but who knows?-- would fantasize about mass killings (in a park, yet?) ???
Hmm. "A little warped..."
Jost
Posted by Declan on August 1, 2006, at 11:43:27
In reply to Re: Bloody Links » Dr. Bob, posted by Jost on July 31, 2006, at 22:43:23
That synopssis is misleading. The parents are unimportant.
There are 3 sisters, representing, I suppose, different responses to the world. One is a failure (let's not put that in inverted commas), one is a conventional success, and one is a fashionable novelist. And they have their partners/contacts among men.
Phillip Seymore Hoffman is the bloke to watch. His greatest role. It is essentially a black comedy about alienation. It is much weirder and (if you like) more warped than that synopsis suggests.
There's so little in English language films I can bear watching. I might buy "Cries and Whispers" from Amazon.
Posted by Declan on August 1, 2006, at 14:38:25
In reply to Re: Bloody Links, posted by Declan on August 1, 2006, at 11:43:27
ill film, June 19, 2006
Reviewer: Rushed Limbog "process due Octember" (Screwit, MA) - See all my reviews
this movies is phat. I like how the characters are all rich and female. It provides a nice counterpoint to Dirty Harry were every character is scummy and male. Bergman is silly dope, son.Was this review helpful to you? YesNo
Posted by Jost on August 1, 2006, at 21:40:52
In reply to Here's a review, posted by Declan on August 1, 2006, at 14:38:25
Can 3 out of 4 people be wrong???
Rushed is a very fine film critic, "Limbogeyan" one might almost say, in the clarity and brevity of his hard-edged analyses..
But "Cries and Whispers"? Wow. Wasn't there a scene with broken glass. Too deep for me. I did like it, though, when I saw it.
These days, I avoid anything with blood, car crashes, vampires, angst, badly-lit corridors where either a. one's husband, or wife, who turns out to be a serial killer, b. a psychopathic spymaster, c. an alien with huge, slime-dripping jaws or d. a mouse awaits; or any dismemberment, horrific experiments, wild thrashings around, screaming, or other nerve-wracking events are rumored to take place.
I'm open to all movies without that. Have you heard of "Ballet Russe"? It's kind of nice.
Jost
Posted by Declan on August 1, 2006, at 21:48:13
In reply to Re: Here's a review » Declan, posted by Jost on August 1, 2006, at 21:40:52
You remember the prayer by the dead woman, I think it was? I saw it 30 years ago now, but I loved that prayer, full of angst and doubt, completely despairing.
Ballet Russe, I havent seen it. I do like Russian films. They're fairly sad though. From years ago I loved Solaris, now remade and prettty ordinarily too. There's a film called '4' I'd like to see. I did enjoy 'Burnt by the Sun'
Posted by Declan on August 3, 2006, at 4:42:33
In reply to Cries and Whispers » Jost, posted by Declan on August 1, 2006, at 21:48:13
Clearly the prayer *over* the dead woman.
This is the end of the thread.
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