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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Deneb on July 17, 2006, at 1:22:23
I think most people have a lot of self esteem, only they don't like to admit it. I think people like to think they don't have self esteem because they think people will like them better if they don't show a lot of self esteem.
I do think that a lot of us here really don't have a lot of self esteem. I think it ties into the whole depression thing. But, on the whole, I think most people have more self esteem than they would like to admit.
Deneb*
Posted by Adrift on July 17, 2006, at 1:43:08
In reply to I think most people have self esteem, posted by Deneb on July 17, 2006, at 1:22:23
> I think most people have a lot of self esteem, only they don't like to admit it. I think people like to think they don't have self esteem because they think people will like them better if they don't show a lot of self esteem.
>
> I do think that a lot of us here really don't have a lot of self esteem. I think it ties into the whole depression thing. But, on the whole, I think most people have more self esteem than they would like to admit.
>
> Deneb*
I disagree :). I tend to find that most people try to embellish thier self esteem, out of curiosity, why would someone hide thier self esteem? Humans seem naturally attracted to people with self confidence. It is very attractive.
Posted by Racer on July 17, 2006, at 2:01:57
In reply to I think most people have self esteem, posted by Deneb on July 17, 2006, at 1:22:23
Posted by snapper on July 17, 2006, at 3:17:58
In reply to On what do you base this theory? (nm) » Deneb, posted by Racer on July 17, 2006, at 2:01:57
Hate to be the beare of bad vibes and news. I generally think this whole mood dis-order /anxiety thing has a very bad inpact on most everybodys' self esteeem. I wish I could think my self out of it. To me it is not self talk or CBT it hits and sadly I feel like a loser and then my mood cycles for "what ever" reason and it comes back up to a semi-normal baseline..either way I do think we have the ability to have good self esteem but I am a firm beleiver that the mood disorder and any underlying issues be dealt with in the best way possible. Other wise I think we are fooling ourselves....
Just my 2 cents
Snapper
Posted by Deneb on July 17, 2006, at 22:31:08
In reply to I think most people have self esteem, posted by Deneb on July 17, 2006, at 1:22:23
Hmmm....you guys have some valid points, maybe I'm confusing self esteem with something else?
Deneb*
Posted by Jost on July 18, 2006, at 4:23:13
In reply to Re: I think most people have self esteem, posted by Deneb on July 17, 2006, at 22:31:08
Posted by Phillipa on July 18, 2006, at 11:50:09
In reply to Re: I think most people have self esteem, posted by Deneb on July 17, 2006, at 22:31:08
Self-esteem comes when you feel good about yourself and feel you make a difference. Try just try to put a smile on you face and do something for someone every day. And give yourself credit for it however simple it may have seemed to you. I think and boy is it hard that this will help improve self-esteem. I need to do what I suggest to others. Love Phillipa
Posted by coley on July 18, 2006, at 11:54:56
In reply to I think most people have self esteem, posted by Deneb on July 17, 2006, at 1:22:23
If you could live inside my mind you would feel really bad for posting something like that. I don't think it is true that people like others because they "claim" to have no self esteem. Actually people tend to get sick of me because I am constantly questioning my abilities.
Posted by Declan on July 18, 2006, at 19:07:23
In reply to Re: I think most people have self esteem, posted by coley on July 18, 2006, at 11:54:56
Lets say that you were proud of the fact that you were always questioning your abilities. Maybe that's not the best example...but you can be proud of things, I am proud of things about myself. Let's say you were proud of the fact that you followed your heart, no matter where it led you. What then?
Posted by llrrrpp on July 21, 2006, at 17:29:18
In reply to Re: I think most people have self esteem, posted by Declan on July 18, 2006, at 19:07:23
> Lets say that you were proud of the fact that you were always questioning your abilities. Maybe that's not the best example...but you can be proud of things, I am proud of things about myself. Let's say you were proud of the fact that you followed your heart, no matter where it led you. What then?
And an example. Personally experienced by moi. Having admitted to myself and others that I was mentally ill (depression) I lost confidence in my ability to play violin, do work. Write. Think.
In its stead, I was confident in my ability to be depressed. I actually took pride in my ability to cut myself, starve myself, and write dour poems. When I was feeling uncertain of who I was, I just looked at the scabs on my inner arms, or the decreasing size of my waistline.
I think regular folks are more confident in some things and less confident in other things. The degree to which we allow our failures to define our "self" is individual, and it can change a lot depending on how mentally "healthy" we are. (I think I've got more self- esteem today than at nearly any day in the last 3 months).
I guess Declan's point is that it's useful to be proud of things that are adaptive in your environment. For example- If you are an underling, best to be proud of your ability to execute directions efficiently. If you are a manager, best to be confident in your ability to give orders, and convince your underlings to follow these directions.
If you were proud of the fact that you followed your heart, no matter where it lead- this could be a source of strenth for people who are political activists, or suicide bombers, or who put their lives on the line for a cause, who chain themselves to trees, or decide to spend a week submerged in water an attempt to break a world record.
-ll
Posted by Declan on July 21, 2006, at 20:43:08
In reply to being proud of sick things **multiple Triggers** » Declan, posted by llrrrpp on July 21, 2006, at 17:29:18
G'day Lurps
Or lovers. You know that bit that's read out at funerals 'in my Father's house there are many mansions'? Our minds are like that, many parts, but getting some harmony among the buggers is the problem.
I wouldn't worry about dour poems. I'd sentence you to read "Ariel". (you have? I'm rereading "Into That Darkness" again.) So you could look at your arms or your waist and at least feel that you amounted to something (this is starting to sound ironic). Lack of a sense of identity?
I don't know. I'd like to escape.
Declan
Posted by Racer on July 21, 2006, at 21:23:24
In reply to Re: being proud of sick things **multiple Triggers » llrrrpp, posted by Declan on July 21, 2006, at 20:43:08
> G'day Lurps
> Or lovers. You know that bit that's read out at funerals 'in my Father's house there are many mansions'? Our minds are like that, many parts, but getting some harmony among the buggers is the problem.One of my favorite "short stories by Edith Wharton" is called something like "The Fullness of Life," and she describes people as being like a house with many rooms -- the hallway, where everyone comes and goes; the drawing room, for formal visits; and in the most private room, the soul sits alone. I don't remember all of it, but it's a story I like a lot, and I recommend it.
OK. You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming. I apologize for any inconvenience this Special Announcement may have caused.
Posted by llrrrpp on July 22, 2006, at 17:13:18
In reply to Re: being proud of sick things **multiple Triggers » llrrrpp, posted by Declan on July 21, 2006, at 20:43:08
> G'day Lurps
> Or lovers. You know that bit that's read out at funerals 'in my Father's house there are many mansions'? Our minds are like that, many parts, but getting some harmony among the buggers is the problem.
> I wouldn't worry about dour poems. I'd sentence you to read "Ariel". (you have? I'm rereading "Into That Darkness" again.) So you could look at your arms or your waist and at least feel that you amounted to something (this is starting to sound ironic). Lack of a sense of identity?
> I don't know. I'd like to escape.
> DeclanIf it's only a sentence, I'll read it ;o)
I think my identity is coming back. Along with my stunning good looks. oh wait. that was a magazine, not a mirror.
What do you wish to escape from?
I wish to escape from the uncertainty that I may have made a big mistake in trying to help someone who isn't ready to be helped.
Yesterday's self-esteem day was a local maxima. point of inflection occurring when?. Hope to begin the upward trajectory again soonish.
yours,
"Lurps"p.s. what does that line from your post mean "Or lovers?" I think my mind drains spinning in the opposite direction in the N. Hemisphere.
Posted by Declan on July 23, 2006, at 1:43:29
In reply to Re: being proud of sick things **multiple Triggers » Declan, posted by llrrrpp on July 22, 2006, at 17:13:18
When indeed?
What do I want to escape from? There are actual things, but the relevant anxieties are opaque, and they are so subject to change.
But I'm interested that you mention mistake.
I think my social anxiety might be lessened if I could just throw in from time to time 'I'm worried I may have committed a mistake'.
The 'or lovers' thing was in response to following your heart, and you replied with various examples of what you might do if you followed your heart, and an extra one I thought of was love(not neccessarily in a productive direction).
Declan
Posted by llrrrpp on July 23, 2006, at 11:36:58
In reply to A local maxima, point of inflection occurring when, posted by Declan on July 23, 2006, at 1:43:29
Gotcha
Admitting that you may have made a mistake is often useful. I find it easier to say this to others than admit it to myself.
Your "relevant anxieties are opaque"? but can you just walk around them, since you can't see through them?
;o)
Posted by Declan on July 23, 2006, at 15:01:38
In reply to Re: A local maxima, point of inflection occurring » Declan, posted by llrrrpp on July 23, 2006, at 11:36:58
I've no idea why I find company so stressful, why in fact the company of kind decent people can make me desperate.
I'm annoyed by labels like (I dunno what's relevant) social phobia or PTSD. (I grew up on neurosis, but have a soft spot for neurasthenia.)
I had always thought that if I could find the right words to capture the experience then it would become more manageable, that it would be possible to create laughter out of fear, at any rate. The fear of making mistakes comes to mind. Maybe socially there are a great many mistakes you can make? We're not supposed to worry about making mistakes (are we?).
I remind myself that the political version of 'mistake' might be a couple of hundred thousand lives ('mistakes were made'), and try to relax.
Declan
Posted by llrrrpp on July 23, 2006, at 15:20:29
In reply to A local minima? » llrrrpp, posted by Declan on July 23, 2006, at 15:01:38
> I've no idea why I find company so stressful, why in fact the company of kind decent people can make me desperate.
Perhaps you need to spend more time around troubled people. I recently had the opportunity to witness a senior member of my department have a public meltdown because he had left his wife the week before for his mistress, who he just found out is completely unfaithful to him. Lovely, huh? Superimpose this on his history of severe depression, and suddenly my problems seem somewhat more manageable. For instance, this guy kept on saying the the sex was so hot that he would give up on his marriage, even though the mistress was so cruel to him. yep. not my problem. Helps me put things into perspective.
>
> I'm annoyed by labels like (I dunno what's relevant) social phobia or PTSD. (I grew up on neurosis, but have a soft spot for neurasthenia.)yeah, such labels are so fuzzy. They try to describe our personality & our minds, which are indescribable.
> I had always thought that if I could find the right words to capture the experience then it would become more manageable, that it would be possible to create laughter out of fear, at any rate. The fear of making mistakes comes to mind. Maybe socially there are a great many mistakes you can make? We're not supposed to worry about making mistakes (are we?).
Declan, you know too many words already. mere mortal minds (like me!) can hardly keep up with you as it is!!
Well, laughing at yourself is a lovely thing to work on. After the fear and anger and hurt are gone, can you look at what happened and realize the ridicularity of it all? Sure there are a lot of mistakes to be made. I make them all the time, so do most people. But the rules of society are not written down, immutable. They change dramatically depending on circumstance and inebriation. Just be true to yourself, and don't take the consequencese too seriously. A gaffe is usually forgotten quickly. Anyone who holds a grudge because of a social "error" is probably not worth your company anyways.
> I remind myself that the political version of 'mistake' might be a couple of hundred thousand lives ('mistakes were made'), and try to relax.
Oh yeah. I'm glad that the consequences of my decisions are not so permanent or shocking.
cheerio,
-ll
Posted by Racer on July 23, 2006, at 16:24:32
In reply to Re: A local minima? » Declan, posted by llrrrpp on July 23, 2006, at 15:20:29
> >
> Well, laughing at yourself is a lovely thing to work on. After the fear and anger and hurt are gone, can you look at what happened and realize the ridicularity of it all?I'm sorry, Lurpsie, I had to report this post to the Word Police. They'll be around later, to check your license for making up words...
;-)
I couldn't resist. The idea of the Word Police came to me recently, so I'm sending them out a lot...
> Sure there are a lot of mistakes to be made. I make them all the time, so do most people. But the rules of society are not written down, immutable. They change dramatically depending on circumstance and inebriation.
That's a really thought provoking and dead-on comment. And sometimes I think some people will change the rules on you IN ORDER for you to make a mistake. (I had a boss who would dump emotional experiences on me, and then tell me I was behaving inappropriately if I tried to say anything about my emotional experience. {shrug} Guess that makes one of us less than healthy, huh?)
I'm working on using my own perspective these days. How do *I* feel about having said [x]? Not how did someone else react, but how did *I* react to my behavior? If I'm OK with it, then I'm working on being OK with it.
Of course, being me, if it's not *perfect,* it's not OK, but that's a different story...
>Anyone who holds a grudge because of a social "error" is probably not worth your company anyways.
My mantra, which isn't quite solid for me at all -- YET -- is, "Anyone who would notice that error, Is Not My Friend."
I watched "To Kill A Mockingbird" last night, on TCM, and there's a scene where Scout brings a boy home from school, and when he pours syrup over his lunch, she asks what he's doing? The maid takes her into the kitchen and tells her that the boy is company, and if he wants to eat the tablecloth, she's still not to say anything about him, but just let him. *That* is what good manners are about -- making people feel at ease. Anyone who doesn't have good manners, doesn't deserve my energy.
Does that attitude always work for me? Nope. Not at all. Not even usually. But every so often, I remember it, and that's progress for me.
Nice post, Lurpsie.
Posted by Racer on July 23, 2006, at 16:34:49
In reply to A local minima? » llrrrpp, posted by Declan on July 23, 2006, at 15:01:38
> I've no idea why I find company so stressful, why in fact the company of kind decent people can make me desperate.
Sometimes I feel something like that. It's a combination, I think, for me, of not feeling good enough to deserve the kind decent treatment from those kind decent people, and also of the devastation that even being with kind decent people doesn't help me feel better, safer, less isolated. Could something like that be operating for you?
>
> I'm annoyed by labels like (I dunno what's relevant) social phobia or PTSD. (I grew up on neurosis, but have a soft spot for neurasthenia.)Yeah, well, there's some sort of a need to Name everything, you know? And I am a bit uncomfortable with things like social phobia, etc. PTSD is a different story, but then again, I'm also resistant to my T telling me I've been traumatized... I'm inclined, though, to think that a lot of social anxiety is within normal limits, and treating it as a separate diagnosis is counterproductive. Especially using drugs for it. Sure, there are some people with a severe anxiety disorder who really need drugs, but a lot of people I think could get more benefit from behavioral treatments. Then again, that's my own bias there...
>
> I had always thought that if I could find the right words to capture the experience then it would become more manageable, that it would be possible to create laughter out of fear, at any rate.That reminds me of part of my problem: I grew up with people who always told me I needed to be able to *explain* why I felt a certain way. If I said my feelings were hurt, I had to be able to justify that hurt. Just saying, "my feelings are hurt by what you just said," wasn't enough. That would only get me a "Oh, you're being so melodramatic, why on earth would your feelings be hurt by that? Tell me how that could hurt your feelings?" As a result, I'm still horrible about emotions. For one thing, I don't often know what I'm actually feeling. But even if I do know what I'm feeling, I don't often express it, because I'll be unable to justify it. And, of course, since I don't have permission to feel anything I can't justify, I'll only get in trouble if I let on that I'm feeling it...
That's a very long paragraph to say, "Maybe having the right word isn't the answer..."
'Sides, Lurpsie's right: you do know an awful lot of words. The Macquarie people would be very proud. ;-)
>
> I remind myself that the political version of 'mistake' might be a couple of hundred thousand lives ('mistakes were made'), and try to relax.
>
> DeclanAnother good point.
Interesting post. Thank you for it. It'll give me thought fodder for a few days, I suspect...
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 14:40:01
In reply to Re: A local minima? » Declan, posted by Racer on July 23, 2006, at 16:34:49
It might be related to the fact the my thoughts do not fit easily into social situations. If I can find some way to allude to them, it's kinda OK, but if I can't I get really thin and papery (and drunk). In social situations I feel like saying things like 'Do you know the number for the ambulance?' or 'Is it bad if I make a mistake?' This at least connects my inner world to my outer one. Sometimes I manage something like this, and I find the right words that are not too socially disruptive and which include me in the conversation.
Declan
Posted by Racer on July 26, 2006, at 14:49:59
In reply to Re: A local minima? » Racer, posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 14:40:01
I found a lot of help in the ED group I went to. I could say things like, "It feels as though there's a How-To Manual that everyone else got, and I didn't..." Instead of a lot of blank looks and silence, before everyone went on to a different topic, I'd have half the group saying things like, "Yeah, that's what it's like for me!" or "That's such a good way of describing it -- I just don't know how everyone learnt..."
Maybe something like that would help you?
Or just come over here, and we'll head out for dinner. I promise to laugh at silly things, and not get impatient with you. How's that sound?
There -- that really is an idea: only socialize with people as messed up as we are! It's not a good idea, but it is an idea...
I dunno, Dec, today ain't a great day, so I'll shut up now...
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 17:03:32
In reply to Can you find a place to practice? » Declan, posted by Racer on July 26, 2006, at 14:49:59
I kinda practice here, I guess, and maybe I can find other places. The community radio station isn't bad. Everyone is fairly strange and OK with the fact. A lot of this is cultural. In some situations mistakes are easy (highly structured situations) and in others they are harder to make.
Posted by llrrrpp on July 26, 2006, at 18:50:19
In reply to But it is a good idea » Racer, posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 17:03:32
Declan, i often find your posts kind of cryptic. I enjoy trying to figure out your message. You use a lot of literary references that are unfamiliar to me, but when I actually have the brainpower to figure out what you're saying, I'm rewarded. My guess is that your average real life social contacts might be intimidated by your style. That doesn't make it "wrong", it just means that you'll have an easier time if you hang out with people who groove with your style, who can share your cultural references, and your willingness to question things that most people would rather ignore. You may be too "deep" for small talk.
Indie radio stations- definitely have a nice assortment of characters.
best to you.
-ll
Posted by Phillipa on July 26, 2006, at 20:33:28
In reply to Re: But it is a good idea » Declan, posted by llrrrpp on July 26, 2006, at 18:50:19
Must be that Australian talk. And Declan is very deep and wise. Love Phillipa
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