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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by CtrlAlt n Del on June 9, 2002, at 19:07:13
Just another theory (from fortean slips)Scientists, philosophers and atheists have long argued that God and spirituality are constructs of the human mind, although that opinion generally hasn't been a popular one. After centuries of bloody holy wars and fierce theological dispute, the controversy of the Creator's existence has taken a strange new turn: humanity may finally have uncovered tangible evidence that the phenomenon of religious faith is all in our heads.
Literally.
A group of neuroscientists at the University of California at San Diego has identified a region of the human brain that appears to be linked to thoughts of spiritual matters and prayer. Their findings tentatively suggest that we as a species are genetically programmed to believe in God.
The researchers came upon these cerebral revelations in the course of studying the brain patterns of certain people with epilepsy. Epileptics who suffer a particular type of seizure are often intensely religious, and are known to report an unusual number of spiritually-oriented visions and obsessions. Measurements of electrical activity in the brains of test subjects indicated a specific neural center in the temporal lobe that flared up at times when the subjects thought about God. This same area was also a common focal point overloaded with electrical discharges during their epileptic seizures.
Could this heretofore unidentified part of the brain -- nicknamed the "God module" -- actually be some sort of physiological seat of religious belief? The scientists who discovered it believe it might be. They have performed a further study comparing epileptic subjects with different groups of non-epileptics -- a random group of average people, as well as individuals who characterized themselves as extremely religious. The electrical brain activity of the subjects was recorded while they were shown a series of words, and the God module zones of the epileptics and the religious group exhibited similar responses to words involving God and faith. No word yet on whether the brains of atheists and agnostics might flatline the monitors, but the parallel results among the strong believers are considered impressive.
"There may be dedicated neural machinery in the temporal lobes concerned with religion," the research team announced at a conference for the Society for Neuroscience. "This may have evolved to impose order and stability on society."
Anthropologists and Darwinian theorists have frequently speculated that religion may have developed as a self-policing mechanism as cooperation with others became useful. With their intelligence and skills at making weapons, there was little to stop early humans from slaughtering each other like wild maniacs, until they began to fear unseen beings even bigger and badder than themselves. This sort of adaptation has always been considered a purely psychological function, but now we have the first evidence that the religious instinct may be physically hard-wired right into our noggins.
Which brings us to the most intriguing conundrum posed by the discovery of the God Spot. It's a double-edged sword shoved right through the heart of the science vs. religion debate, bearing either good news or bad news for the faithful masses depending on how you answer the chicken-or-the-egg question: does it mean that God created our brains, or that our brains created God?
"These studies do not in any way negate the validity of religious experience or God," the God module's discoverers took care to note, plainly anticipating a reception of fire and brimstone from certain quarters. "They merely provide an explanation in terms of brain regions that may be involved."
No matter how inconclusive or sketchy they label their findings as being, these scientists will inevitably be denounced as heathenistic blasphemers doing the work of Satan. Yet at the very same time, other equally devout worshipers will praise this discovery as a beautiful and wondrous epiphany that spells out God's great plan.
So what'll it be? A sacred temple in the temporal lobes, or an incidental conflagration of the synapses? The Kingdom of Heaven confined to the insides of our skulls, or "I think of God, therefore He is"? Touched in the head by an angel, or brainwashed into belief by biology?
Believe what you want, but either way, I think those who draw any serious mechanistic or teleological conclusions from this research ought to have their heads examined, as well.
Posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 21:36:00
In reply to .......the god spot, posted by CtrlAlt n Del on June 9, 2002, at 19:07:13
I saw the stuff from Laurentian University Neuroscience of spiritual experiences..then I got signed up for a programme for an ex-employee who sells you a "bicycle" helmet with enough wiring and biofeedback software to zap the god spot into action...
i'm well impressed with the evolutionary explanation here...my how we have evolved from running round killing each other...oh that reminds me got an appointment for an online quake3 fragging session .....
mmnn something tells me those helmets should be made compulsory for computer nerds....
Posted by CtrlAlt n Del on June 9, 2002, at 22:19:23
In reply to Re: .......the god spot, posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 21:36:00
quake3 fragging session .....
mmnn something tells me those helmets should be made compulsory for computer nerds....The future..
I was born far to early..Quake eh -(played quake 2 over n over)-good anger therapy .
I was a duke nukem fan...but just to keep the faith here , ...godly acts in black and white game sounds good : )
Posted by Tabitha on June 10, 2002, at 1:28:34
In reply to .......the god spot, posted by CtrlAlt n Del on June 9, 2002, at 19:07:13
A specific brain area for religious impulses? I totally believe that. After all why do certain psychotropic drugs and physical practices create religious experiences? I think there's definitely a specific chemical state involved...
Posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 13:36:11
In reply to Re: .......the god spot » omega man, posted by CtrlAlt n Del on June 9, 2002, at 22:19:23
my first computer game playing was a ping-pong machine in 78...you got to keep trying new stuff..
I loved Duke nukem when it was out on Pc we all played it..what a great atmosphere...and really funny...the new Multi user games are quite another thing...playing real people in real time with these new Hi-res graphics is something really breathtaking...you don't need to do it from home..the latest thing here is LAN party..someone hires a space and you bring your PC plug it into their server and go online as a team playing other cities...
the future of sport I think...
whats going to happen to our bodies I wonder...are we submitting ourselves to bigger and bigger neural lives...mmnn the future...
I just found out the stomach has its own brain so as I type my brothers in action got busy inventing an alien type robot that crawls in there and hooks up the vagus nerve for total reality..
drivel drivel...
Posted by ctrlalt n del on June 10, 2002, at 20:08:40
In reply to Re: .......get with the new team.. » CtrlAlt n Del, posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 13:36:11
Posted by Raga on June 12, 2002, at 16:57:08
In reply to .......the god spot, posted by CtrlAlt n Del on June 9, 2002, at 19:07:13
> humanity may finally have uncovered tangible evidence that the phenomenon of religious faith is all in our heads.
Perhaps this "god spot" was put into human's heads by God to enable them to experience Him.
Just a thought.
-Raga
Posted by jonh kimble on June 12, 2002, at 19:48:48
In reply to Re: .......the god spot, posted by Raga on June 12, 2002, at 16:57:08
i too certainly believe that a part of the brain is involved with religious experiences. i know very little about the scientific fact behind this but this is just a question i thought of. is this part of the brain exclusively "the god spot" . i would be inclined to believe that through evolution the brain has developed a "willingness to believe in the unknown" spot. evolution did not tell us everything to be afraid of because we have not experienced everything there is to be afraid of. but not only fear, things like philosophy, and as stated, spirituality as well. my family is VERY religious. this is interesting to me because although im an atheist i am definetly more inclined to be interested in philosophy than my high school friends, perhaps that part the brain is more active in my family? or maybe ive been trained to think of these sort of things. maybe both, who knows
i once heard a religious speaker say, "the fact that people have believed in god(s) since recorded history should prove the existence of a god." heres what i say. every recorded religion has had things like the afterlife and protection given from there god(s). these are things that all people want. what do you want, to die and turn into dirt or live forever in wonderland? easy question to answer. but just because people want to belive in something does this make it true? i want a million bucks in my bank account, but it aint there.
the idea that our culture is becoming demoralized is another thing i dont agree with. yes we seem to be less religion based, but religion in the past had a big role in fundamental explanations of surroundings. more and more, science is explanning these things in a different light, and people are believing in science more and more because it has more fact.
sad but true, but with time it becomes freeing and true
jon
Posted by omega man on June 16, 2002, at 17:27:43
In reply to Re: .......the god spot, posted by Raga on June 12, 2002, at 16:57:08
this gods quite an amazing guy..an expert in constructing neurological structures that exist to feel something which we can't see, or get any information about..in the brain which he made anyway and then he creates as mysfunctioning spot that gives nothing more than the feeling of a void in which we feel like zero (yes I have had quite a few religous trips ) and everyone has a different view when they come out of it..with love (a neurally infrenced state) being the only common fruit (not a bad thing)..
wait a minute..are we expected to believe one thing does all this..
Is'nt believing in god the highest state of delusion and ridicolousn..stupidness...?
made me very happy..but whats that got to do with the truth..
I suppose it comes down to can you afford to face the truth or up to it which is
DEATH
Posted by JonW on June 17, 2002, at 0:00:03
In reply to Re: .......the god spot, posted by Raga on June 12, 2002, at 16:57:08
> > humanity may finally have uncovered tangible evidence that the phenomenon of religious faith is all in our heads.
>
> Perhaps this "god spot" was put into human's heads by God to enable them to experience Him.Which came first -- the chicken or the egg? I myself am an unbeliever, so you know my view on this.
Jon
Posted by JonW on June 17, 2002, at 0:59:41
In reply to Re: .......the god spot, posted by jonh kimble on June 12, 2002, at 19:48:48
Can I get an AMEN! -- no pun intended, of course ;-)
Hi Jon,
I just wanted to applaud some rational thinking! For some ungodly reason (lol!), there is still a stigma attached to being an unbeliever, and so I support someone whenever I see them speak up on behalf of rational thought.
Anyway, about what you said... I wonder if we don't have the "god spot" because it made people more prone to religion which benefited society in the past. However, when you think of all the wars fought and people killed in the name of religion -- that can't be good. But it allowed the people in charge to control the hoi polloi which may have been beneficial to a society's survival. Or like you eluded to, maybe it's just a flaw that comes with something beneficial that evolution has given us.
Whatever the explanation, an informed society should oppose irrational beliefs. IMHO, of course :)
Jon
Posted by omega man on June 17, 2002, at 1:55:56
In reply to Freeing but True (Re: .......the god spot) » jonh kimble, posted by JonW on June 17, 2002, at 0:59:41
>when you think of all the wars fought and people killed in the name of religion -- that can't be good.
Not everyone natrually has an easily activated religious spot...most priests are "on" all the time .. so they are the most likely candidates for the really heavy trips..where one has a feeling of eternal love..and feels smaller and smaller in the feeling of wonder..but really youre just percieving realities deep inside the cortex...its a psychotic but enjoyable state...where quite a lot of our newer brain has just had it...like depression..
each prophet or whatever while emerging from his periodic void started to hear voices which were actually his own..you would need to experience this to understand how 3d an effect this is....if you've ever had a busy brain talking to yourself while in hypnosis and thinking it was someone else..then felt the sound which previosly was external actually come outside your ear and back inside where you just hear your own internal dialouge..
Schizophrenia was'nt applied then unless someone was being a real pain and then they were just called devils..
the wars are the result of unreligious men using the differences in religions which arise because
prophets did'nt understand how to seperate their own thought from the trip and thats why we have religions totally diametric in principle...Jew/Christian etc etc..This provides a reason for the very focused and selfish actions of the unreligious military leaders to promote differences in religions as reasons for war....usually within the boundaries of their government and country ..
youre only really crazy if youre useless..or can't be understood..or a pain..or everybody knows its all in your head...but people had no idea back then..these prophets had very busy brains anyway and in the right context..a bit of starvation just brought more ideas..because they were givers not fighters for resources..it did'nt take much for some neural special effects..
now we just label people and lock them up..which is a shame..because the link with creativity and schizoprhenia is well documented in dozens of research papers ..but Pdocs never seem to see that side of it...
Posted by Dave1 on June 17, 2002, at 14:01:47
In reply to Re: .......the god spot, posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 21:36:00
Hi,
I read the stuff about the God spot in the magazines and how they where triggering the the religious experiences at Laurentian University.
Some of my depression problems were caused by false religious beliefs and exacerbated by some negative religious experiences which I had when I was younger. I won't get into the details here, but it would be a great help if I could trigger a religious experience in the manner described at Laurentian.
I therefore was wondering if you could give me any information on obtaining the bicycle helmet device you described in your post.
Thanks alot
Dave
> I saw the stuff from Laurentian University Neuroscience of spiritual experiences..then I got signed up for a programme for an ex-employee who sells you a "bicycle" helmet with enough wiring and biofeedback software to zap the god spot into action...
>
> i'm well impressed with the evolutionary explanation here...my how we have evolved from running round killing each other...oh that reminds me got an appointment for an online quake3 fragging session .....
>
> mmnn something tells me those helmets should be made compulsory for computer nerds....
Posted by omega man on June 17, 2002, at 16:49:08
In reply to Re: .......the god spot, posted by Dave1 on June 17, 2002, at 14:01:47
http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/shakti/process/members/
The guy who runs it seems to put you thru quite a rigorous questioniare..from what you've said you would pass some of it..
Tood murphy wants to be sure youre well prepared and doing it for the right reasons...perhaps you might need somebody with you to make sure you don't fall back into the negative side...
Have you done LSD, ketamine etc and been ok ?
you don't get rejected..the questions are just so he can design for you similiar to a hypnosis for particular problems ..
Posted by OddipusRex on July 8, 2002, at 21:03:50
In reply to .......the god spot, posted by CtrlAlt n Del on June 9, 2002, at 19:07:13
I just read a novel which touched on these things.
Lying Awake by Mark Salzman- A contemplative nun living in isolation from the world begins to experience ecstasy and write popular poetry based on her visions. A diagnosis of temporal lobe epilepsy caused by a brain tumor causes her to confront the idea that her experiences have been caused by her brain and not by God. There is a long tradition in the Catholic church of not allowing people with epilepsy to enter religous orders for that very reason. How do you discern what is really a genuine religous experience?
It was an interesting book and well written. A decade or 2 ago there was something of a fad for diagnosing as temporal lobe epilepsy what would probably be called BPII these days. I wonder if diagnostics for temporal lobe epilepsy has improved? I know a lot of antiepileptic drugs are used for BPII also. I rarely hear of temporal lobe epilepsy these days though.
I believe in God, but having a god spot in my brain wouldn't threaten my beliefs at all.
This is the end of the thread.
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