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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:44:10
There was a song on the radio with this line, and my husband and I had an argument it. (He's an athiest; I'm an agnostic.) I just wanted to know what others think.
I say that if this were the case, what would explain suicide or death from illness? Or immense suffering, even? Because if we could "take it," we wouldn't kill ourselves, right? If we could "take" cancer, we wouldn't die from it, right?
Why would a god "give" a child abusive parents? Why would a god "give" someone Leukemia? And what is the purpose of believing that? Can't we get cancer from cancer cells, rather than god? Can't we get abuse from bad people, rather than from god?
I don't like anything about that line. I can't see how it works logically--even if you believe that god gives you all the good and bad stuff in your life.
Okay. Discuss.
beardy : )>
Posted by Krazy Kat on June 5, 2002, at 20:41:02
In reply to God only gives us as much as we can take...., posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:44:10
I think, very generally speaking, folks who believe this would say that we are 'capable' of handling all the trials and tribulations that God sends our way. That doesn't mean we'll overcome them (i.e. not die from cancer), but we have the ability within us, emotionally, physically, and spiritually, to turn those trials and tribulations into something good for God. They have a purpose. Like the story of Job.
And I suppose one would have to believe that God knows and planned the purpose behind all things in our lives, to explain the suffering, the abuse, the pain. For instance, I do not think Sar's death was in vain. (That one may bring up a Big Discussion). I also do not think she went to "hell" for committing suicide.
Then there's a taoist view - one cannot have good without evil - yin/yang.
Is there a Jewish view from your upbringing, BL?
Esp. when children and animals are harmed, it is difficult for me to contemplate the potential purpose at all...
Posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 20:44:50
In reply to God only gives us as much as we can take...., posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:44:10
I think Rabbi Kirshner talks about that in his book When Bad Things Happen to Good People.
God puts us down here and fate happens. Just because a person can tolerate huge emotional and family problems and whatever, will God give him more than he would, say me? It's one of those 'comforting statements' coming from people who think they're helping but in reality don't have a clue about God.
Couldn't you just hear God,"I don't want to give John another car wreck but, well, he just handles them so well and I've got a lot of car wrecks to assign today."
I think Rabbi Kirshner had a son born with the disease that ages a baby remarkably fast. What is that called? Anyway, he went from being a young naive Rabbi to someone who really understood suffering and could bring a new level of understanding to people who have been seriously cheated by life or fate.Phil
Posted by Kar on June 6, 2002, at 11:21:29
In reply to It's a stupid line alright. » beardedlady, posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 20:44:50
I agree wholeheartedly with Phil. (Come to think of it I usually do!) Also don't like it when people attribute misfortune such as a miscarriage to God: "It was God's way"...It's another one of those "comfort" statements. Or how about the guy on tv whose house has been spared the effects of a ravaging tornado: "God was watching over me". I just don't like the implication. If that were so then everyone would be spared. Some things are luck. I believe that I should to be thankful but I don't attribute everything (positive or negative) to "God's will".
Even my mom, a devout Catholic thinks the "God doesn't give us more than we can handle" is a bunch of hooey. I believe that we get it and that our faith can HELP us...
Karen
Posted by beardedlady on June 6, 2002, at 15:34:48
In reply to God's way..., posted by Kar on June 6, 2002, at 11:21:29
I don't like the line, either, so I really couldn't find a way to make it make sense. I'm glad to know it doesn't make sense to most people. I don't believe god gives you bad stuff or good stuff. If there is a god, I think he gave us all free will a long time ago and then stepped out of it to watch what happens.
beardy : )>
Posted by Adam on June 6, 2002, at 22:15:15
In reply to God only gives us as much as we can take...., posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:44:10
I believe this line of thinking is relevant to the theodicy (roughly the argument that the existence of evil is not antithetical to the existence of a just and loving god..."why do bad things happen to good people," etc.). Yes, we may suffer, but faith in God gives us the strength to endure it, and no trial is sent our way that our faith cannot overcome. I suppose the further logic is that, in the end, through faith, the curse will only be transformed into a blessing; surviving the test will bring us closer to God. I suppose the story of Job would be a perfect example of this kind of apology.
I think it's a bunch of hooey, myself. The flip side of the coin is that, if you do not endure the trial and your faith waivers at the final moment, you will be damned. Some people just can't handle what life deals them. They may even curse God for their misfortune, or deny His existence. Those who do not have the patience of Job may find themselves in perdition, but what got them there could have been the evil of another man, exercising his free will...cosmically, a random event. It's difficult to escape the conclusion that, at least in some instances, our torments, and our responses to them, are collectively up to humanity, and out of God's hands, to preserve free will. Since God gave us free will, he clearly gave us something that is often more than we can handle.
> There was a song on the radio with this line, and my husband and I had an argument it. (He's an athiest; I'm an agnostic.) I just wanted to know what others think.
>
> I say that if this were the case, what would explain suicide or death from illness? Or immense suffering, even? Because if we could "take it," we wouldn't kill ourselves, right? If we could "take" cancer, we wouldn't die from it, right?
>
> Why would a god "give" a child abusive parents? Why would a god "give" someone Leukemia? And what is the purpose of believing that? Can't we get cancer from cancer cells, rather than god? Can't we get abuse from bad people, rather than from god?
>
> I don't like anything about that line. I can't see how it works logically--even if you believe that god gives you all the good and bad stuff in your life.
>
> Okay. Discuss.
>
> beardy : )>
Posted by beardedlady on June 7, 2002, at 5:26:34
In reply to Re: God only gives us as much as we can take...., posted by Adam on June 6, 2002, at 22:15:15
Posted by terra miller on June 8, 2002, at 23:08:58
In reply to God only gives us as much as we can take...., posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:44:10
1) i think many people who say this have not stopped to think out if this is logical or not.
2) i do not believe that God "gives" us bad things. Bad things happen because we are in a flawed world and flawed people make flawed choices, some of which are just plain evil.
3) i think a more accurate way of phrasing would be that we have no idea what God is preventing from happening (reference Job) and how things could be worse.
4) pain happens whether we believe in God or not. and some people's ways of making sense of pain is to say that phrase you mentioned. it doesn't mean it's accurate. but i do honor any relief it might give someone. when someone's in pain, i'd rather they find relief than point out a flaw in their thinking. relief is more important than being right. it's called grace... oh, well, that brings us around to the original discussion now doesn't it? :-)
~terra
Posted by Tabitha on June 9, 2002, at 4:11:28
In reply to God only gives us as much as we can take...., posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:44:10
Hmm. I have trouble answering that. Here are some meandering thoughts.For some reason I never think of the kind of God that would intervene in events. Where does our conception of God originate? Sometimes I think it's a memory of our parents. Perhaps my God is non-interventionist since I was mainly left to my own devices as a young child.
I never think to blame God when something bad happens. There are plenty of human beings to blame! Though I've never dealt with something like the Rabbi's son.
Posted by jonh kimble on June 12, 2002, at 0:23:18
In reply to Re: God only gives us as much as we can take...., posted by Tabitha on June 9, 2002, at 4:11:28
I myself am an atheist/ agnostic although im only 18 and i know that could change. anyway, i wanted to mention something that i see many people doing (not here, just in life in general) that relates to this topic that i find stupid.
ok, when something good happens to a christian (or other theist), what is the imediate reaction? "PRAISE GOD!" fair enough. if God is helping these people and worked to do something good in return for faithfulness, then this is fine. but, when something bad happens, what is the reaction i see all to often (or all the time) "we should try harder, it is our fault" or "God knows it is for the best" i suppose something bad could create more good, but for example, my moms friend just lost her son due to heart problems, and he was 3. i see very little good in that. this is a bad thing, and logically if you are to praise God in good times, wouldnt the logical thing be to say "God, what the hell are you doing! this is BS!" i dont see this very often. or if people do this, they get mad at themselves and think that they are ofending God. i hate to say it, but in this case i believe religion clouds the mind from logic. i dont think religion is like this in every aspect, infact, i see it doing more good than harm, but the idea of truthfulness is a different story
please feel free to speak you're mind
jon
Posted by Dinah on June 12, 2002, at 9:58:20
In reply to Re: what we say to God should be justified, posted by jonh kimble on June 12, 2002, at 0:23:18
I do know what you mean, but I think the type of thing you're describing has more to do with the individual person and their understanding of the way God works than it does of religion. I see it in action, and I don't say anything, because the idea brings some people comfort and who am I to challenge that.
The only related idea that really upsets me is God as pyramid scheme. "If you send in your money, God will bless you and you will find money pouring in from unexpected sources." When I hear that from a preacher, I get sort of turned off.
But there is more than one way to see God in action in the world, different viewpoints, and different levels of sophistication in theology. (Ooh. That didn't sound right. Please don't anyone be offended.)
I see God more as rejoicing in your happiness and lending you support in times of sadness and I always pray for support and help with attitude and strength rather than for changes in physical laws or other concrete things. My attitude towards this is more like Kushner's in "When Bad Things Happen to Good People".
As an example, someone told me about an experience they had had and their spiritual view of it. They said there had been some young ducks on a busystreet, trying to get over a barricade. She ran to help them and someone stopped his car, put on his emergency lights and ran to help as well and they helped the ducks to safety. She said she thought God had sent her and the man to help the ducks. Now, I've seen too many splattered animals to find that easy to believe. But I do find it easy to believe that she and the man brought God and his love to the ducks by their choice of action. So they brought God into the world through acts of loving-kindness.
I'm not explaining this well, but a good book that does is "To Life!", also by Harold Kushner. And when I've discussed this with my pastor, he says it is just a matter of levels of spirituality and understanding. That people understand God on different levels. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's important to note that it's not the only way to view God.
Darn. I really don't feel like I've explained this well. So I hope I haven't insulted anyone who believes in a God who more concretely intervenes, because I respect everyone's religious views. This is just the level of understanding that I have.
Posted by Dinah on June 12, 2002, at 10:37:51
In reply to Re: God only gives us as much as we can take...., posted by Adam on June 6, 2002, at 22:15:15
I studied the story of Job in college in my ethics class. And unless you are one of the people who believe in the literal interpretation of the bible, I think it's important to understand the purpose behind the story of Job.
At that time (and still today to some people) misfortunes were seen as a sign that you had done something wrong and that God was punishing you. A wealthy person with no problems was seen as a good man upon whom God had smiled. The story of Job was meant to show that it was wrong to judge a man's worth by his circumstances. That bad things happen to good people. (And good things happen to bad people too.)
As an expression of that belief, Job works admirably. In other theological aspects, Job is almost horrifying. God basically allows the destruction of Job's life to occur as a result of a bet with the devil. At the end he "replaces" Job's children and wives and cattle, as if children can be "replaced". And when Job has the good sense to protest, God reprimands him, even though if the story is taken literally, God could almost be seen as evil (for allowing someone to be harmed because of the bet). I don't believe that view of God, and I don't believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible. Therefore I see Job as a very limited parable or metaphor or something, meant to illustrate that a man with misfortunes is not necessarily evil, and not meant to illustrate other theological principles (and poorly designed to do so).
Just my take on it, no more or less likely to be correct than anyone else's.
Posted by Dinah on June 12, 2002, at 10:41:06
In reply to another suggestion » beardedlady, posted by terra miller on June 8, 2002, at 23:08:58
>
> 4) pain happens whether we believe in God or not. and some people's ways of making sense of pain is to say that phrase you mentioned. it doesn't mean it's accurate. but i do honor any relief it might give someone. when someone's in pain, i'd rather they find relief than point out a flaw in their thinking. relief is more important than being right. it's called grace... oh, well, that brings us around to the original discussion now doesn't it? :-)
>
> ~terraTerra, I agreed with much of what you said, but especially the last paragraph. That was lovely. Thank you.
Posted by jonh kimble on June 12, 2002, at 13:19:26
In reply to Re: another suggestion » terra miller, posted by Dinah on June 12, 2002, at 10:41:06
Posted by Sally green on June 15, 2002, at 21:16:54
In reply to Re: God only gives us as much as we can take...., posted by Tabitha on June 9, 2002, at 4:11:28
Hi:
God also does not give us more than "he knows" we can handle. We must rememebr that we are a needy bunch, always asking God's help or answers for everything. However, sometimes God tells us NO! As my relation grows, I realize now that the times he has told me NO has always worked out to my advantage. What we think my be good for us is many times not. As we grow and become stronger Christians, through our faith, God tests are faith. Joyce Meyers explains this very well in her teaching tapes. Just when we think we are at our wits end or that God has forgotten us, the continued faith is what brings the answer. Our faith must be tested. It is easy to keep our Joy, Peace and be happy when times are good and things are going our way, however the true test of our faith is how we respond when times are tough. I have learned how important it is to remain strong, optimistic and have the greatest faith when times are bad. That is when God knows that you really trust his plan for your life!
I speak of Joyce Meyers because God has made such dynamic changes in her! She was sexually abused as a child, was in an abusive relationship, was angry, self centered, spiteful,drank, smoked alot of the things that most of us Christians are struggling with. However, she held strong to her Christian beliefs and humbled herself. She is so real. She humbles herself to the lengths of embarrassment jsut to help others. By humbling one's self to our faults, admitting our wrong behaviors etc, God can truly do a good work in each of us. It is the person who can not humble themselves to their wrong behaviors etc, that God has little hope in helping. This can be hard!!! But, as God makes these changes, being the first to apolize, learning to not seek revenge, even when someone has done you wrong and you would like to get them back, God shows you the Peace of Mind that brings so many other great things into your life!!
Peace, Joy and Love,
Sally
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