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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 47. Go back in thread:
Posted by judy1 on July 22, 2002, at 17:23:14
In reply to A question, posted by Susan G on July 22, 2002, at 13:26:23
I can only believe in a forgiving God, because if that was not true I would not have any faith. Strictly my opinion- take care, judy
Posted by Susan G on July 22, 2002, at 18:07:06
In reply to Wellllllllll..... » mair, posted by SandraDee on July 22, 2002, at 16:55:30
Sandra Dee, I'm asking for your opinion, your belief about this. Surely that's ok to post, isn't it? I don't want this to turn into an Admin-bound debate but since I am specifically asking what people believe about this particular question, I would hope you would feel free to tell me. If not, just tell me in PB Open since I truly am interested in your thoughts. Thanks.
Sue
Posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 18:09:29
In reply to Re: Wellllllllll....., posted by Susan G on July 22, 2002, at 18:07:06
Thanks for saying that Susan....I don't see any reason why it should have to go to admin :-)
Kiddo
Posted by Phil on July 22, 2002, at 20:06:26
In reply to Re: Wellllllllll..... » Susan G, posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 18:09:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seven come eleven
Yeah, yeah, yeahZZTop
God wouldn't send you to hell for suicide. He looks at it more as a lateral move. *joke?
Posted by fachad on July 22, 2002, at 21:37:55
In reply to Have you heard about heaven, posted by Phil on July 22, 2002, at 20:06:26
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...-John Lennon
> Yeah, yeah, yeah
> Seven come eleven
> Yeah, yeah, yeah
>
> ZZTop
>
> God wouldn't send you to hell for suicide. He looks at it more as a lateral move. *joke?
Posted by Phil on July 22, 2002, at 21:57:43
In reply to Re: Have you heard about heaven - Imagine..., posted by fachad on July 22, 2002, at 21:37:55
Posted by mair on July 22, 2002, at 22:25:22
In reply to Re: I sure wish I could answer that... » mair, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2002, at 16:58:12
> "Are you still asking about suicide or about not accepting Jesus as savior."
Dinah - would there be a difference to your answer one way or the other?Mair
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2002, at 23:17:34
In reply to Re: I sure wish I could answer that... » Dinah, posted by mair on July 22, 2002, at 22:25:22
Yes, Mair. It would of course. I have widely researched current theological thought on suicide (for the obvious reasons). I have no knowledge of the other.
Posted by SandraDee on July 22, 2002, at 23:32:35
In reply to Re: Wellllllllll....., posted by Susan G on July 22, 2002, at 18:07:06
I would really love to give you my opinion/belief on the matter, but would have to do so in chat, I suppose. It's been made fairly clear that the "road" that us Christians choose is not that of which to be talked about on this Faith Board. I'd be more than happy to tell you how I feel (in more depth). I've already posted "what I believe" without much detail on another thread (it might have been archived?). Perhaps we can set a date for chat?
Posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:30:35
In reply to Re: I sure wish I could answer that... » mair, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2002, at 23:17:34
Dinah, since you have done that research would you give me a quick overview of thought on this? I'm still counting votes here.
You're the best! :)
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2002, at 9:34:32
In reply to Re: I sure wish I could answer that..., posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:30:35
I'd rather answer that off board, Susan. You can message me and I'll explain why.
Posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:39:57
In reply to I would love to... » Susan G, posted by SandraDee on July 22, 2002, at 23:32:35
SandraDee, I would love to talk with you about this in chat. I pop in there most evenings around 7:00 PM our time (Pacific). My schedule is erratic lately so I'm hesitant to set a date and then not show up. How about if we just look for each other?
I don't really want to get into all this but I don't see why it isn't possible to just say here, "The _________ faith believes that if you take your own life you will rot in hell" or whatever. Would that work? If not, no worries, I'll just see you in chat.
Sue
Posted by SandraDee on July 23, 2002, at 10:21:53
In reply to Re: I would love to..., posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:39:57
apparently says we can't say stuff like that. At least that's the impression I've gotten. I do not want to risk getting blocked by saying stuff like what you quoted. I am not trying to be difficult, just trying to abide by some of these not-so-clear rules. I don't know if you've been following admin... but God help us all.. whew.
I'll look for you in chat... (we might be going swimming tonight, so probably not tonight :( sorry).
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 23, 2002, at 11:17:31
In reply to Re: I would love to..., posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:39:57
> I don't really want to get into all this but I don't see why it isn't possible to just say here, "The _________ faith believes that if you take your own life you will rot in hell" or whatever.
Good question... I've responded at Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020627/msgs/6595.html
Bob
Posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 12:03:32
In reply to Dr. Bob's policy... » Susan G, posted by SandraDee on July 23, 2002, at 10:21:53
I responded to Dr. Bob on Admin since he directed me there.
If anyone else has an answer to my question and you feel like taking the time, please just email me at imsusang2 at yahoo dot com.
Thanks for all who responded.
Sue
Posted by fachad on July 23, 2002, at 12:46:02
In reply to Re: I would love to..., posted by Susan G on July 23, 2002, at 9:39:57
>I don't see why it isn't possible to just say here, "The _________ faith believes that if you take your own life you will rot in hell" or whatever. Would that work?
It worked for me, and nobody complained. Take another look my post:
Posted by OddipusRex on July 23, 2002, at 13:42:27
In reply to Re: A question - a few answers » Susan G, posted by fachad on July 22, 2002, at 15:21:40
Catholic view from the catechism section 2283
We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the oppurtunity for salutary repentance. The church prays for people who have taken their own lives.
I'm not a catholic but I trust in the infinite mercy of God.
Posted by OddipusRex on July 23, 2002, at 14:05:02
In reply to Re: A question - a few answers » fachad, posted by OddipusRex on July 23, 2002, at 13:42:27
A little more from the catechism (2282)
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibiity of the one committing suicide.
I want to know how to tease out the psychological disturbance from sin. (Are we allowed to mention sin here?) Most of my life is lived under the influence of anguish fear psychological disturbance, etc. How much is me and how much is the depression? Is there really a difference?
Posted by Angel Girl on July 23, 2002, at 14:11:34
In reply to I would love to... » Susan G, posted by SandraDee on July 22, 2002, at 23:32:35
> I would really love to give you my opinion/belief on the matter, but would have to do so in chat, I suppose. It's been made fairly clear that the "road" that us Christians choose is not that of which to be talked about on this Faith Board. I'd be more than happy to tell you how I feel (in more depth). I've already posted "what I believe" without much detail on another thread (it might have been archived?). Perhaps we can set a date for chat?
Seems I must go and read the Admin board. I thought that THIS board was created to talk about faith issues, was it not????I'm not trying to cause any problems or to diss anyone, but if Lou can talk about his experiences, then why can't anybody else????
What have I missed??? Are there rules posted somewhere that I'm not aware of???
I thought as long as you weren't trying to recruit, then you could talk about your faith in whatever manner you wanted.
I'm so confused. Anybody care to fill me in please?
Confused Angel
Posted by krazy kat on July 23, 2002, at 15:56:07
In reply to pleading insanity?, posted by OddipusRex on July 23, 2002, at 14:05:02
Thanks for the info! To be honest, it makes me feel a little "better" about the Catholic church as I always disagreed with the view that suicide=damnation.
My pdoc once said "It's the depression talking, not you." I thought that summed it up well. When gets truly suicidal, something takes over. Call it Satan, call it a scientific malady - whatever. But one does not think clearly - obviously. So it has never made sense to me to codemn a person because they acted out on something that really had nothing to do with who they were at all...
Just my thoughts...
Posted by fachad on July 23, 2002, at 20:22:16
In reply to Re: A question - a few answers » fachad, posted by OddipusRex on July 23, 2002, at 13:42:27
> Catholic view from the catechism section 2283
Yipee! I love it when references are documented!
I will say that despite my disagreements with their teachings and practices, the Catholic Church has always been strong in the scholarship department.
Just wondering...Does the Catholic Church put date stamps and revision numbers on their printed documentation?
I would venture to guess that this "slack" for suicides is a more recent rev. and that the older versions were more damning.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 0:06:06
In reply to In a state of total confusion, posted by Angel Girl on July 23, 2002, at 14:11:34
> > It's been made fairly clear that the "road" that us Christians choose is not that of which to be talked about on this Faith Board.
>
> Seems I must go and read the Admin board. I thought that THIS board was created to talk about faith issues, was it not????It was. But if someone says their road is the only "right" one, then I'm afraid those on other roads might feel put down, so I'd like people to keep *those particular* beliefs (if they have them) to themselves (while they're here; there are of course other forums in which faith issues can be discussed more freely).
Bob
Posted by kiddo on July 24, 2002, at 0:15:44
In reply to Re: so confused, posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 0:06:06
> It was. But if someone says their road is the only "right" one, then I'm afraid those on other roads might feel put down, so I'd like people to keep *those particular* beliefs (if they have them) to themselves (while they're here; there are of course other forums in which faith issues can be discussed more freely).
>
> Bob
Thanks so much....I'm glad this board is a place of *support*.
Kiddo
Posted by Lini on July 25, 2002, at 10:45:54
In reply to Re: so confused, posted by kiddo on July 24, 2002, at 0:15:44
The message seems to be: feel free to talk about christianity, what it means to you, the ways it has supported you, or *could possibly* support others, but don't tell *me* (or imply) that if I am not a Christian, that I can not feel the same level of support, love from God, path of righteousness, return to heaven or whatever, through a different religion/faith/"way", EVEN if you believe that to be true.
I think that's what is best for everybody, even if it's not *best* for you. And I think you can give and receive a lot of support within those parameters.
Hopefully, the concept is applied equally to all posters and their "beliefs", regardless of whether the beliefs are religious, spiritual or delusional in nature.
Posted by Mashogr8 on July 25, 2002, at 11:12:56
In reply to Re: A question - a few answers - Yipee! » OddipusRex, posted by fachad on July 23, 2002, at 20:22:16
In reply to your earlier statement that if there were a God how could He let the person suffer so much that the individual was forced to kill himself/herself. Personally, I believe that that is exactly the way he helps them. They have not been able to see an end to their pain. Some have tried for years. Not existing is the only way for them. Giving them that choice is God's way of letting them out of their pain rather than continuing to go through the pain. Could that not be the ultimate act of mercy?
My experience with the Catholic Church does indicate that there are revisions of certain ideas. The Tenets of the faith do not include suicide condemning one to damnation. However, I was always taught (40-50 years ago) that one who needed to end life had committed the biggest sin of all. They despaired as Judas did when he hung himself after leading the soldiers to Jesus. Despair meant total rejection of God and his help. My thoughts as a little person had always been what if Judas's last thoughts were I'm sorry. I was told God was merciful. one plus one equaled forgiveness to me.
Since Vatican II in the late '60s and early 70's I believe, ideas presented to the people became more of a responsiblity of the person not a listing of offenses that could be counted. It became an issue to see that there was justice in the world and in an individual's life -- kind of like love the sinner not the sin and change what can be changed. Suicide and even "extreme means" in hospitals were reviewed. Illness can be controlled and life should be cherished but there is a point where the means out way the outcome. What good is it for a family to have to care for a loved one in a coma forever because feeding tubes exist and allow the individual to exist in a vegetative state sometimes robbbing the family of their income. In the case of suicide, it is the illness, the irrational part of the person, which makes that choice. I believe that God is forgiving, merciful and understanding. I think if one believes in a God that it is impossible to know what He feels following such an act of supreme desperation. I am more convinced of that than ever since I attended the funeral of a 14yr. old boy this past February. There is no way God could damn him. That child did not know what he was doing. He was in extreme agony and felt there was no help or hope left for him. I believe that that child was rescued from his hell on earth. I wish with all my heart for his family and wonderful friends who miss him dearly that medication and hospitalization could have been more helpful. I wish he had had the years of experience that I have had and I would expect most of those who haave attempted suicide have had that things do change eventually. Maybe not fast enough. They do change. Depression says it won't, but it will. A person will not feel that way forever. Sometimes that is all an individual has to keep him here on earth.
MA
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