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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jay on January 3, 2003, at 0:14:42
I have never attended a self-help group, and one reason being is that I see little value in a group without professional facilitation. My bias is that I am a social worker, and have provided both group and individual therapy for mental health clients. Am I being too stuck up, even if I can easily find better?I worry that this sounds 'snobbish', but if something is wrong with your car, and you take it to a mechanic, and you *are* a mechanic yourself, you are likely to cast a critical eye on the work being performed.
Two types of therapy I am looking at participating in are both run by hospital-affiliated professionals. (MSW's, etc.) One of them is my specialty, and that is Interpersonal Therapy. It's a bit less goal-directed than CBT, and it does allow you to indulge in the catharsis of emotions a bit. What I am really hoping for is a good therapist who will work *with* me, but at the same time I realize I must lower my ego a fair bit for good to come out of this.
I also am going to give CBT a shot, but again, it has to be with a therapist I feel very comfortable in working with. In fact, I think that should be the case for *everybody*, but I understand, especially in the U.S., many have little choice over their particular health care providers. Many of these excellent therapy groups are covered by our public healthcare in Canada. It's just a matter of driving to one of the larger university centre's to get involved.
Comments???
Thanx,
Jay
Posted by Miller on January 3, 2003, at 11:05:48
In reply to Self-help groups....no value to me, posted by jay on January 3, 2003, at 0:14:42
Hi Jay,
I think you are NOT being stuck-up regarding group sessions. At least you are going into a situation where you are at least familiar with the text. For many of us, we got disgnosed, put on medication, and started therapy before we were aware of what depression, anxiety, or any other disorder was.
You have the ability to make your knowledge work FOR you. Check out all the different groups that are offered in your area to find out what will work best for your beliefs.
I admire you for being able to at least admit you could use the services if they are presented correctly. You know what they say "A doctor makes the worst patient." You could easily fall farther into your illness without getting help just by denial.
Good luck and let us know what happens.
-Miller
Posted by Tabitha on January 3, 2003, at 15:51:03
In reply to Self-help groups....no value to me, posted by jay on January 3, 2003, at 0:14:42
Hi Jay, I've attended both professionally facilitated and non-facilitated groups. They just meet different needs. If you really want feedback and discussion of your issues, then go with the facilitated group. The non-facilitated ones are more just for venting, and getting the feeling that you're not alone (kind of like here).
The non-facilitated groups I attended actually had several therapists as members, and they all seemed to benefit.
Posted by Phil on January 4, 2003, at 21:17:24
In reply to Self-help groups....no value to me, posted by jay on January 3, 2003, at 0:14:42
Therapist undergo therapy in their training and many therapist need ongoing therapy or meetings of different sorts. It takes courage to say you need to sort things out. If you go in with the thought that this person is my peer and you're watching the process instead of very humbly asking for assistance, it might not help as much.
I think I could be a good therapist right now but, in group, I met an incredible therapist. I was blown away. He came into the group knowing nobody, subbing for my therapist, and he could nail your butt.
One guy was leaving group in a few weeks. The therapist asked why and the guy said he was better and therapy was expensive. The therapist, leaning back in his chair with his feet on an ottoman asked him' "How much money do you make?" The guy got angry and red in the face and said that's none of your business. Therapist: When my wife and I were in grad school, we were spending 50% of our income on therapy. Another group member said , "You must have been really fucked up." The therapist said he was.
Therapist: So that's how I lived because it was that important-how much do you make, I really want to know. The member was getting madder about this arrogant therapist picking on him and it was very visable. Went on for a few more minutes
Then...Therapist: So, J---, why are you so private about money and why does it make you so angry? What do you think is up with that?
I was stunned. This guy looked and talked like Scott Peck and I honestly was in awe of this guy. He then had the group members full attention.He would confront you-much easier for therapists to do in group than individual. Then he would wonder out loud pissing people off even more. He would challenge you with a calm voice as you were steaming over your pet issue. Keep pushing, then you were busted. Then he would do a little one on one and could help 8 group members in an hour and a half.
He got more accomplished in one meeting than my therapist could in three months.
I'm sorry jay, I've forgotten the subject. Think it's nap time.
Phil
Posted by jay on January 4, 2003, at 23:52:04
In reply to Re: Self-help groups....no value to me » jay, posted by Phil on January 4, 2003, at 21:17:24
Your points, I think, are all excellent Phil. Therapy in general requires a good reduction in ego, but that has to be handled with care by a therapist. Your mention of a situation where a person/client was getting very angry, and the therapist keeping their cool AND still providing boundaries, is an invaluable skill.One other thing to note also, is that if you feel you are much smarter than your therapist, there is a good chance you are. There is a simple way to come to that conclusion, and that is if your therapist is constantly engaging you in a 'competitive' fashion, they are letting their own issues (again, often ego-related) get in the way. A good therapist knows when and how to use a "challenging" technique, and honestly it is a rare tool, used far more than it should be.
A good rule of thumb is actually very simple: the therapist is there to *listen* to *you*. I think there is a great misconception (and especially amongst therapists!) that they are some sort of mythical Oracle, and I blame pop-psychology for that. (You know, all of those "Ph.D"'s on the talk shows...many who are not even licensed or went to a legitimate school!)
I just brought up a few of these things, and my initial question, because I am about to go into formal counseling, and I want some feedback from folks on how I can get the best out of therapy. I am just as much a client, just as needy, as everyone else on here, and the only way I am going to get good help is by never forgetting that. Otherwise, I would just be wasting mine and someone else's time...and damn..I REALLY need help.
Thanks...
Jay
> Therapist undergo therapy in their training and many therapist need ongoing therapy or meetings of different sorts. It takes courage to say you need to sort things out. If you go in with the thought that this person is my peer and you're watching the process instead of very humbly asking for assistance, it might not help as much.
>
> I think I could be a good therapist right now but, in group, I met an incredible therapist. I was blown away. He came into the group knowing nobody, subbing for my therapist, and he could nail your butt.
>
> One guy was leaving group in a few weeks. The therapist asked why and the guy said he was better and therapy was expensive. The therapist, leaning back in his chair with his feet on an ottoman asked him' "How much money do you make?" The guy got angry and red in the face and said that's none of your business. Therapist: When my wife and I were in grad school, we were spending 50% of our income on therapy. Another group member said , "You must have been really fucked up." The therapist said he was.
> Therapist: So that's how I lived because it was that important-how much do you make, I really want to know. The member was getting madder about this arrogant therapist picking on him and it was very visable. Went on for a few more minutes
> Then...Therapist: So, J---, why are you so private about money and why does it make you so angry? What do you think is up with that?
> I was stunned. This guy looked and talked like Scott Peck and I honestly was in awe of this guy. He then had the group members full attention.
>
> He would confront you-much easier for therapists to do in group than individual. Then he would wonder out loud pissing people off even more. He would challenge you with a calm voice as you were steaming over your pet issue. Keep pushing, then you were busted. Then he would do a little one on one and could help 8 group members in an hour and a half.
>
> He got more accomplished in one meeting than my therapist could in three months.
>
> I'm sorry jay, I've forgotten the subject. Think it's nap time.
>
> Phil
Posted by jay on January 5, 2003, at 0:02:51
In reply to Re: Self-help groups....no value to me, posted by Tabitha on January 3, 2003, at 15:51:03
Tabitha...thanks, because that personal experience and feedback is invaluable, and what I need. I asked the question not in any way meaning "I am an MSW...and I know this, and this..", but just as someone who hasn't been in therapy before, and I really need other's feedback as to what they got out of different types of counseling. I very, very much need help right now, and that is *the* bottom line. Like all of us, I just want the best help I can get.
Thanks..:-)
Jay> Hi Jay, I've attended both professionally facilitated and non-facilitated groups. They just meet different needs. If you really want feedback and discussion of your issues, then go with the facilitated group. The non-facilitated ones are more just for venting, and getting the feeling that you're not alone (kind of like here).
>
> The non-facilitated groups I attended actually had several therapists as members, and they all seemed to benefit.
Posted by jay on January 5, 2003, at 0:15:03
In reply to Re: Self-help groups....no value to me » jay, posted by Miller on January 3, 2003, at 11:05:48
> Hi Jay,
>
> I think you are NOT being stuck-up regarding group sessions. At least you are going into a situation where you are at least familiar with the text. For many of us, we got disgnosed, put on medication, and started therapy before we were aware of what depression, anxiety, or any other disorder was.
>
> You have the ability to make your knowledge work FOR you. Check out all the different groups that are offered in your area to find out what will work best for your beliefs.
>
> I admire you for being able to at least admit you could use the services if they are presented correctly. You know what they say "A doctor makes the worst patient." You could easily fall farther into your illness without getting help just by denial.
>
> Good luck and let us know what happens.
>
> -Miller
>Thanks very much! You summed it up perfectly, and that is I NEED this help right now, and that is all there is to it. I also like hearing other's experiences, as it feels very supportive in finding the best help I can get.
Thanks again....
Jay
Posted by Noa on January 5, 2003, at 10:00:12
In reply to Re: Self-help groups....no value to me » Phil, posted by jay on January 4, 2003, at 23:52:04
>>>I am just as much a client, just as needy, as everyone else on here, and the only way I am going to get good help is by never forgetting that. >>>>
That is the key, I think. Just go in as you, not as your professional self. Get a good reccomendation from friends for a therapist who is smart and capable and has good boundaries, etc. Then, once you are there, don't worry about whether you are smarter or he is smarter, etc. With the reassurance from the rec's you got, once you are in just try to assume he is smart enough to help you.
Look, getting into therapy is scary. I don't know if you are, but to me, you sound scared. Welcome to the club. It's normal (you know this already, I know, but it doesn't hurt to hear it again, I bet).
Like you said, beneath or behind your professional self is a human animal like the rest of us, with all of the stuff that comes with the equipment we are born with. It is great to have highly developed intellectual abilities to help mediate the power of our emotions, and this is one of the ways we are able to function well enough in life, but it doesn't mean that the emotional stuff isn't there.
This is the end of the thread.
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