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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 42. Go back in thread:
Posted by psychlover on January 11, 2004, at 12:36:22
In reply to Happy birthday Elle (nm), posted by gardenergirl on January 11, 2004, at 11:39:45
As someone who has spent time as both a client and a therapist, I find it interesting that so many of you are interested in your therapist's birthday. What is that really about?
It sounds like you are trying to make a personal connection with your therapist, and that is not really what the therapeutic relationship is about.
The job of the therapist is to help the client/patient to work out his or her own problems, not for the therapist to cure him or her or to replace some other person in the client's past or present life.
The role of the therapist is not that of a parent, or a boyfriend/girlfriend, a lover, or even a friend. That does not mean the therapist should not be friendly and warm -- he should --but the therapist needs to establish firm boundaries that make it clear to the patient that this is a professional, working relationship.
You should not go into therapy trying to make a new friend -- or more -- with the therapist. And a therapist should not go into practice thinking he is going to make friends or more with his clients. That is not what it is about. Of course, transference and countertransference are both normal parts of the therapeutic process, but they must be handled in a therapeutic way, which means examining what is behind what is said or done.
Generally speaking, I believe that a good therapist would not divulge his birthday when asked (of course it depends on the specific circumstances), but rather he should follow that up with asking why it is important for you to know his birthday.
Of course, a therapist cannot always avoid answering the questions, but really the therapy is about you as the client and not about him as the therapist. Anytime a therapist starts to disclose too much about himself to a client, it is time to find another therapist.
I think this may come as a surprise to some of you who have other expectations of what therapy should be.
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2004, at 12:49:44
In reply to Re: Happy birthday Elle, posted by psychlover on January 11, 2004, at 12:36:22
I think much of what you say is perfectly correct. But the details of self disclosure are debated among therapists. And perfectly respectable therapists have different ideas about it.
Is knowing someone's birthday really establishing a personal relationship? I don't really think so. My therapist mentioned when his birthday was and it wasn't important enough for me to remember it! Nor does he remember mine. If he, or I, happen to mention it's our birthday, the other would probably say happy birthday and get back to therapy.
Boundaries should be set at the optimal distance for a particular client. Flexibility is the key to good therapy. Unless you're doing strict psychoanalysis, or strict CBT perhaps, the idea of a blank slate therapist has pretty much gone the way of the dinosaur. Most therapists who use a relational model would not be particularly surprised at what some of us think therapy should be. They may even think that a lack of curiousity about our therapist reveals as much as an abundance of it. And maybe it would.
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2004, at 12:52:14
In reply to Perfect Therapy Client Questions, posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 2:56:27
I somehow missed that it was actually your birthday!
Happy Happy Birthday, Elle my dear. Happy things to come your way this year. If I had a wish then it would be, a very happy birthday to you from me!
Even if it is late.
Posted by Pandabear on January 11, 2004, at 13:34:39
In reply to Perfect Therapy Client Questions, posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 2:56:27
I dont know my therapist bday but, she did give me a christmas card...it was actually a thank you card because I had given her some cookies that I had mde for her for christmas...but i dont have a picture of her...and yes i do save some of her voice messages on my machine..although it makes me feel really weird that I do that...but, it does make me feel comforted when I listen to them...
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2004, at 13:34:43
In reply to Re: Happy birthday Elle, posted by psychlover on January 11, 2004, at 12:36:22
From "The Gift of Therapy" by Irvin Yalom, M.D. page 92
"If patients want to know whether I am married, have children, liked a certain movie, read a certain book, or felt awkward at our meeting at some social event, I always answer them directly. Why not? What's the big deal? How can one have a genuine encounter with another person while remaining so opaque?"
p. 93
"Thus, by no means does therapist self-disclosure replace the exploration of the process of hte patient's personal inquiries. Do both! Some therapists make a point of responding to questions with: "I'll be glad to answer that, but first I'd like to as much as possible about the asking of that question." Sometimes I use that approach, but I've rarely found particular advantage in insisting on any particular order ("You go first and then I'll respond").
Dr. Yalom is widely respected, and his approach is probably not fringe. We, as patients, have the option to choose our therapists on the basis of many qualities. Overly firm boundaries would probably be a deal breaker for me, unless the therapist was particularly gifted in other areas.
I don't think a patient/client should let anyone make us feel guilty about being human and wanting a level of connection, not even our therapists. They can draw their boundaries, we can draw ours, and if they aren't compatible we can look elsewhere.
Posted by Medusa on January 11, 2004, at 14:16:02
In reply to Re: Therapist self revelation » psychlover, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2004, at 13:34:43
thanks Dinah. I enjoy reading these threads, who knows why, and I didn't take the admonitions of the previous poster really seriously. I think most posters here are pretty aware of the dynamics involved.
The therapist who's being trained on my case is really really opaque. I'm not sure how much of that is because I've demanded it and how much is her training - she doesn't want to get shot down by her reviewing team. (They watch the whole thing by remote +and+ the session is videotaped.)
I happen to like "opaque" in this case ... not sure what it says about me that I'm not curious about her. At all. Is that scary? X and I were discussing our respective growth situations, and he was curious about how old she was. (Probably his age, but I hadn't thought about that before he asked.) In the same conversation, I realized that she often wears pants that resemble pants he often wears, at least in fabric, but I don't know if they're the same ones. (I mean every session, not the same pants he wears!) And she wears amber and silver jewelry, which is the sort of thing I notice on +everyone+ since I seem to be programmed to pick up on people's styles and preferences. I tend to be able to pick presents pretty well ... and in reading a previous Perfect Patient thread, I realized if I had any desire to give her something, I'd probably be able to pick out jewelry that she'd like.
During the first session, I sat so that I was facing the camera. I wanted to be able to get an impression of WHY I've gotten weird (to me) reactions from so many therapists ... and I thought that I could double-check that by seeing videos. Well, she made a face when I said something, so since then, I've been sure to sit so that she's facing the camera, in case she ever makes a face and I want to discuss it and she denies. No faces since then. (I'd said that I used to dress inappropriately, and had made big progress by getting it together to some degree. I don't think she really believed me, for whatever reason.)
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2004, at 14:40:33
In reply to thanks » Dinah, posted by Medusa on January 11, 2004, at 14:16:02
That's why there are different therapists, I guess. Because we all have different needs. But as you pointed, even the most opaque therapists let us know something about themselves whether they mean to or not. And even the most opaque-therapist loving clients might want to know something - like whether they're having a reaction to what we're saying.
I, on the other hand, go through most of my sessions with my eyes closed. :) I'd be afraid to see his reactions.
On the other hand, I really don't need to know anything at all about my EMDR therapist other than that she knows what she's doing.
Posted by Speaker on January 11, 2004, at 15:13:41
In reply to Re: Happy birthday Elle, posted by psychlover on January 11, 2004, at 12:36:22
I would find it very poor judgement to go to a therapist that I didn't get to know somewhat. I am letting this T guide my thoughts and I sure want to know a bit about the person that is going to have my most intimate thoughts. I know they are professional but I want to know what drove them to their profession. To help people...to get rich...to have power...what is it? After I get to know their hearts a bit I might be willing to share mine. We are each so different and to think the boundries are the same for each would take the individuality out of therapy. We would only need self help books to apply and we would all get better. Sorry, you struck a cord!
Posted by Speaker on January 11, 2004, at 15:18:20
In reply to Perfect Therapy Client Questions, posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 2:56:27
HAPPY BIRTHDAY ELLE, 1. I did not get a birthday card from my T. but when I ended with him I got a card and a gift. He did always wish me a Happy Birthday.
2. Yes, I knew my T. birthday and always got him a funny card...I guess I even got him a serious card at times.I just started with a new T and I don't care enough to know his birthday yet. But if there is a long time relationship...I'm sure I would find out somehow and get him a card :).
Posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 18:20:17
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions, posted by Speaker on January 11, 2004, at 15:18:20
Well thanks everyone for responding and for saying happy birthday. I started this thread because I have become really curious about how old my therapist is. I googled him and if the stuff I read is about him, then he is about 44. Somehow, I wanted him to be older than that. I wanted him to be more 55ish.
My old doctor used to wish me a happy birthday every year, and I never appreciated it. In fact I used to get annoyed with her thinking, "like you care about my birthday," now I wish that my pdoc would say something.
I think it was Psychlover who said something about firm boundaries. As it is, my therapist doesn't share much about himself. He did disclose to me that he has SAD, and there was some satisfaction in knowing that he felt like he could tell me that. Maybe he tells all his patients that. I don't know. But I sure would like to know more about him.
:) I save all his messages on my voicemail until it automatically reaches the time limit and deletes them. I like to hear his voice, it's comforting. One time I decided to trip him up. I used to have a personal greeting on my phone and then I decided to switch it to an automatic one where the lady comes on and says something to the effect of, "555-555 is not available, please leave a message..." I loved his response. He goes, well I'm looking for Elle (long pause) please call me back. :) He never gets thrown off like that where he can't think of the perfect thing to say so I like it of course... :)
Elle
Posted by DaisyM on January 11, 2004, at 20:52:37
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions, posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 18:20:17
Happy Birthday Elle! My birthday is Thursday. My Therapist said something to me last week about being a Capricorn, fitting the profile (I do) and he wondered what my birthday might trigger for me. I was surprised that he noticed.
I do not know his but I bet he would tell me if I asked. He has answered all my questions except one but I rarely ask personal ones. I don't have a picture. I don't have a voice mail either. I'll have to think about that.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 11, 2004, at 21:36:42
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions » Elle2021, posted by DaisyM on January 11, 2004, at 20:52:37
A Capricorn, eh? Hmmm.. I'm a Cancer and if you look that sign up, I swear you'll find a picture of Karen! I SOOOOOOOO want to know when my therapist's birthday is! Just so I can find out for sure if he is a Taurus. I just want to know if I'm right or not. And I wouldn't think we were that close in age except that he keeps saying we are. I would guess he's somewhere between maybe 28 and 45???? I'm not good at guessing ages. Maybe I'll ask him? But then I may get the whole, "Why do you want to know?" crap that comes with every question. Or, maybe I can just ask him if he's a Taurus because he seems like he's full of crap sometimes! If he becomes defensive, then I'll know it's true? This is just normal curiousity, right?
Oh, I don't save his voicemail messages. His voice sounds rather boyish. Sometimes I listen to the message twice, but that's it. After that, it time to say goodbye!
Oh, and Elle, you asked if my therapist knew that I posted here----- HEAVENS NO! I don't trust that he wouldn't come on here and look. And he'd pick me out super quick, as um, the way I talk on here is pretty much the way I talk in "real life." I couldn't stand the shame of him possibly knowing the way I talk about him. I'm already paranoid that he found out that I post on here [you didn't, did you??? :)] and just hasn't said anything. I'd end up going to session every week and just explaining everything that I posted the previous week, to make sure I didn't hurt his feelings. OMG, I'm feeling anxiuos just thinking about him possibly knowing my "secret." He oculdn't possibly know, could he? OK, now's the time that everyone should jump in and reassure me that he doesn't know. I DON'T want to hear "It's OK if he does read this." NONE of THAT!Enough of this! Time for ice cream or something!
Posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 21:50:35
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on January 11, 2004, at 21:36:42
No dear,
He can't possibly know that you post here. He's attractive and intelligent...but not clever enough to think of this.:)
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 21:56:45
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions » Elle2021, posted by DaisyM on January 11, 2004, at 20:52:37
> Happy Birthday Elle! My birthday is Thursday.
Happy birthday to you too! Was it last Thursday or this coming Thursday?
My Therapist said something to me last week about being a Capricorn, fitting the profile (I do) and he wondered what my birthday might trigger for me. I was surprised that he noticed.
I hope mine says something about it being my birthday, cause then I can ask him when his is.
> I do not know his but I bet he would tell me if I asked. He has answered all my questions except one but I rarely ask personal ones. I don't have a picture. I don't have a voice mail either. I'll have to think about that.
:) I just liked throwing him off by changing the message. It had been the same for over a year.
Elle
Posted by DaisyM on January 11, 2004, at 23:30:41
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions » DaisyM, posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 21:56:45
God, I love a wicked streak! I'll have to think of something to throw mine off...he seems pretty unflappable. Once, a long while ago, I walked in and said, "OK, I'm ready for the answers. Today you do the talking." He stared at me and said, "do you think I don't give you feedback? Or tell you what I think. Oh, wait, I'm being defensive now. Let's talk about this." It was cute because he was flustered for a nanosecond.
My birthday is this coming up Thursday. I'm taking it and Friday off so I can hide from the well-wishers at my office. I am, however, going out with the girls Friday night. Now THAT should be fun! How did you celebrate?
Posted by All Done on January 12, 2004, at 0:05:45
In reply to Perfect Therapy Client Questions, posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 2:56:27
> Okay, today is my birthday. I got to thinking and I have these two questions for everyone:
>
> 1. Have you ever gotten a birthday card from your therapist/pdoc?
>
> 2. Do you know his/her birthday? Would you/have you given them a card?
>
> Elle
Happy Birthday, Elle! I hope you had a terrific day today and I hope all of your birthday wishes come true!To answer your questions - I haven't been seeing my therapist for that long, so we haven't been through one of my birthdays. My next birthday isn't until June.
I would love to know when his birthday is. I would give him a card. He really seemed to appreciate my Christmas card. He read it while I was there and told me a couple of times how nice it was and how much he appreciated it. How sweet of him. I also wonder how old he is. I think I have a pretty good idea, but sometimes it's kind of hard to tell.
Take care,
All Done
Posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 0:11:52
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions » Elle2021, posted by DaisyM on January 11, 2004, at 23:30:41
>I'll have to think of something to throw mine off...he seems pretty unflappable. Once, a long while ago, I walked in and said, "OK, I'm ready for the answers. Today you do the talking." He stared at me and said, "do you think I don't give you feedback? Or tell you what I think. Oh, wait, I'm being defensive now. Let's talk about this."
Funny how he points out his own emotions..."I'm being defensive." Mine does the same thing. We were talking about medications and weight gain and he goes, "Well I could be judgemental and say you could use the weight gain..." I thought it was so funny. :)
>How did you celebrate?
I went and got my hair done. It desperately needed the roots touched up...well not just touched up. :) I got it cut too. I like it. My family made me dinner, but that turned out to be a disaster I would rather not discuss. Ended with me crying. Oh well! :)
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 0:15:49
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions, posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 0:11:52
Posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 0:19:40
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions » Elle2021, posted by All Done on January 12, 2004, at 0:05:45
> Happy Birthday, Elle! I hope you had a terrific day today and I hope all of your birthday wishes come true!
Thanks! :)
> I would love to know when his birthday is. I would give him a card.
I'd give mine a card too, if I knew when it was.
>I also wonder how old he is. I think I have a pretty good idea, but sometimes it's kind of hard to tell.
I know! It's driving me nuts not to know. I might just ask him how old he is. But like others have mentioned he would just ask, well, why do you want to know that? And I don't really know why, I'm just really curious to know.
Elle
Posted by All Done on January 12, 2004, at 0:39:58
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions » All Done, posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 0:19:40
> >I also wonder how old he is. I think I have a pretty good idea, but sometimes it's kind of hard to tell.
>
> I know! It's driving me nuts not to know. I might just ask him how old he is. But like others have mentioned he would just ask, well, why do you want to know that? And I don't really know why, I'm just really curious to know.
>
> Elle
>I've thought the same thing. Can't we just simply be curious about the person we are sharing our most intimate thoughts and secrets with? Does it really all have to *mean* something? Hmm...maybe it does, but I just haven't figured it out yet. I guess sometimes I just wonder how well he can relate to me. If he's closer to my age/generation he might understand me a little better. But if I got another answer, like he's older than I thought, I wouldn't care. So, in the end, I think I'm just plain curious. Hope this doesn't kill the cat, though. ; )
Sorry to hear in your ealier post about your dinner. Good thing you had a good hair day, though. I find those rank very high on the ability-to-make-me-happy scale!
Posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 1:28:28
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions » Elle2021, posted by All Done on January 12, 2004, at 0:39:58
> I've thought the same thing. Can't we just simply be curious about the person we are sharing our most intimate thoughts and secrets with?
Apparently not...
I think I am going to ask him. Quite casually of course. Maybe I will bring my birthday woes up and then say something like, hmm how old are you. Okay, thats not a very good opener is it. I'll think of something.
> Sorry to hear in your ealier post about your dinner. Good thing you had a good hair day, though. I find those rank very high on the ability-to-make-me-happy scale!
I actually didn't do my hair today. But I agree that, strangely, I feel much better when my hair looks nice. I hate static!!
Elle
Posted by cubic_me on January 12, 2004, at 5:59:24
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions, posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 1:28:28
I don't know when my T's birthday is, but I don't particularly want to know. I don't know her exact age either, but because I tell about how old she is by looking at her I dont mind not knowing.
Even though I call her by her first name (which some people thought was boundary crossing), I would never get her a birthday card - that's way too personal for me.
_me x
Posted by Penny on January 12, 2004, at 8:17:53
In reply to Perfect Therapy Client Questions, posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 2:56:27
> Okay, today is my birthday. I got to thinking and I have these two questions for everyone:
Happy (somewhat belated) Birthday!
> 1. Have you ever gotten a birthday card from your therapist/pdoc?No.
> 2. Do you know his/her birthday? Would you/have you given them a card?I know my pdoc's b-day, and I did give him a card last year - he turned 50 and I couldn't let that go by without doing something! But just a card. His b-day is on the medical board website in our state.
I don't know my T's birthday, and haven't asked, though I would like to know. My former T would never tell me her b-day - said that then it would put me in the position of feeling like I had to remember.
P
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 12, 2004, at 8:32:39
In reply to Re: Perfect Therapy Client Questions » Elle2021, posted by Penny on January 12, 2004, at 8:17:53
I hand delivered my therapist a Christmas card with a nice letter inside telling him how much I appreciated him. I saw him again last week after a 3 week vacation hiatus. He said NOTHING about the card and letter. I tried not to expect too much, really I did. But it sort of stung when he didn't mention anything. Makes me wonder if he even read it. Reading all of your responses about how much your therapists appreciated their cards, I feel mine must be a real jerk....
Posted by Joslynn on January 12, 2004, at 9:25:40
In reply to Perfect Therapy Client Questions, posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 2:56:27
Speaking of pictures…I saw a picture of my shrink’s family! And this was not due to any sleuthing on my part. It was completely not my doing. I won’t go into details because it could be identifying, but I saw a photo.
I am prettier than his wife, in my opinion, and younger, but what does that mean and why did I wonder? She was attractive, just your average nice-looking but not beautiful wife and mother. Not a trophy wife. She looked kind of conservative/traditional, i.e., minimal or no make-up, suburban hairstyle. His kids were cute, but not commercial-cute kids, like I had imagined.
I had this big intimidating image of how his family must be so perfect. I’m relieved that his family is just normal looking, not a bunch of models. I am very relieved that he does not have a gorgeous wife, it makes him seem more down-to-earth and likeable, that he is not hung up on having a beautiful woman on his arm.
It was strange though. His family really is real. He doesn’t just live in his office and ponder my problems, how shocking, LOL. And of course I felt envious of them. It was somewhat surreal.
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