![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 38 to 62 of 116. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 12:16:29
In reply to Re: Do you have a picture of your T? » tinydancer, posted by Fallen4myT on March 5, 2004, at 10:35:44
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Just a reminder. I hate to see people get Please Be Civils in replying to posts where their feelings are hurt. Dr. Bob expects that we follow the civility guidelines even when responding to a post that has gotten a Please Be Civil.
So everyone might want to doublecheck their replies to make sure they're using "I statements"?
Posted by fallsfall on March 5, 2004, at 12:25:46
In reply to Re: Do you have a picture of your T?, posted by Apperceptor on March 4, 2004, at 23:46:39
I am one of those dependent patients who has a picture of her therapist (it was on the internet).
Clearly my dependency is a core issue - in fact dependency is what brought me into therapy 9 years ago. I believe that I will be able to make progress on this issue - and become less dependent (and less of a burden on my therapist). But it is a slow and painful process. Until I get to the point where the dependency is reduced to a managable level, I have to have some way to survive. I *need* a connection to my therapist to survive - that IS my pathology. I think that having his picture is much less intrusive to his professional and personal life than if I called him every day. I can think of other ways that I could "connect", but I really think that having his picture is something that makes it possible for me and him to survive until my dependency is under control.
The picture I have came from a professional site where he was essentially advertising his services as a therapist. It is a very formal portrait that completely captures his "blank slate" look. When I look at or hold the picture, I can feel the comfort and safety of his presence in my life. It helps me to internalize him so that I can get comfort from him - without having to bother him personally. It is in my control.
I have never felt sexually attracted to him (but I'm not really sexually attracted to anyone - maybe that is another issue). But I am sure that those who end up in erotic transferences have a similar story to mine - and need their therapist's help to overcome the issues that make their attachment so intense.
We do talk here a bit about how most of us who post here do have, and do need, experienced therapists. We are not typical therapy patients. We tend to have more severe problems and more complex situations that a "typical" patient. Typical patients don't feel the need for a support group around their therapy. I believe that, in therapy as in all other professions that I know of, it is best to begin one's career with simpler more straight forward tasks, and then gradually add the more challenging elements in. If a therapist started out with someone like me - I would think that I would be quite overwhelming (and in fact, I was overwhelming to a therapist I saw for 8 1/2 years - she had about 7 years experience when we started). But, even though I would dearly like to, I can't solve these issues immediately and make my therapist's life easier. These issues are WHY I am IN therapy. It is incredibly painful, and leads to feelings of hopelessness, to be told that you are an unacceptable patient BECAUSE of the issues that brought you to therapy in the first place.
There are many different kinds of clients with many different kinds of issues. Therapists have their own strengths and weaknesses. I believe that finding the right "fit" between client and therapist is essential. This allows the therapist to work within their comfort zone where they will be most effective, and allows the client to make progress and feel successful.
However, it is not always possible, in the beginning, for anyone to *know* what the issues and behavior patterns of the therapist or client are. I had 7 years of effective CBT therapy before I started to overwhelm my therapist. *I* changed (I got past the initial issues and started exhibiting my more serious core issues). In this circumstance, there needs to be an honest reevaluation of the fit between the therapist and client. In her defense, my old therapist was justifiably afraid to refer me out - I *would* have had an incredibly intense uncontrolled reaction (which probably wouldn't have been particularly theraputic for me). But it was also untheraputic for me to stay in a relationship that had become hurtful instead of helpful.
I think it is important for (new - and old) therapists to assess where their strengths and weaknesses and interests lie, and look for clients that allow them to work effectively while giving them opportunities for (managable) growth. I would just stress that if a therapist finds that they are in a situation where the are *not* able to be effectively helpful to their client, that somehow they need to help the client see the reality of this and help the client move on to someone who can be helpful.
My current therapist (Psychodynamic, Psychology of the Self) deals easily and effectively with the same transference issues that overwhelmed my old therapist. This is because they had different training, different interests and they are different people.
Yes, we can be a bit challenging. And I can see why we could feel threatening to therapists from time to time - but that's WHY we need the therapists. And I wish that I were never a burden to my therapist. Right now, I feel fortunate to have a therapist whose skills seem to be helpful to my issues.
Apperceptor, you have your own set of strengths and skills. There are many clients in the world who need the help you can give them with your own unique assets.
I would ask that you try to understand that people like me are not "bad" for having the issues that we have - we are ill. Fortunately, there are therapists who thrive on helping people like me, and there are also clients who need the kind of help that you can give.
Posted by tinydancer on March 5, 2004, at 12:50:56
In reply to Re: Everyone?, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2004, at 12:16:29
Ok, I hope I did good. I waited awhile to even reply because I knew I would be unable to be civil at first. Not a bad thing to practice once in awhile.
Posted by justyourlaugh on March 5, 2004, at 13:53:22
In reply to Re: Do you have a picture of your T? » Apperceptor, posted by fallsfall on March 5, 2004, at 12:25:46
i read all of the above posts..
i truly dont get it...
maybe i dont like my t all that much...i view it as sometime i have to do,,not something i want to.
i also try not to depend on people..to many burns.
i would find it totally wrong of me to ask even if i wanted one...
do i want the people who depend and work with my husand everyday to have his photo?
maybe i am too much of an "island"
j
Posted by Elle2021 on March 5, 2004, at 14:54:59
In reply to Re: Do you have a picture of your T? » Apperceptor, posted by Elle2021 on March 4, 2004, at 23:44:36
I'm sorry if my previous post sounded hostile. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. The post you wrote just struck a nerve in me. I apologize.
Elle
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 5, 2004, at 14:57:30
In reply to Apperceptor, posted by Elle2021 on March 5, 2004, at 14:54:59
Elle for what it is worth I don't think YOU were rude at all.
HUGS
Posted by obSession on March 5, 2004, at 17:12:24
In reply to Re: Do you have a picture of your T?, posted by Apperceptor on March 4, 2004, at 20:55:14
Posted by obSession on March 5, 2004, at 17:16:53
In reply to thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by underthecs on March 4, 2004, at 22:30:38
Guys im gonna challenge this "professional" on my behalf...if any of you would like to join me go for it.. I know for a fact , that clearly this individual is a complete amatuar in psychology or has gone into it for the wrong reasons....I find her more disturbing than I find us. We are natural......okay here goes...guys let her make you feel bad im gonna take her on...........
If you wonder why therapists may be hesitant to continue working with you or seem distant, try to remember that we are human, and in fact, these requests are extremely disturbing and can cause quick burnout.-Firstly let it be said that
I assume you clearly have no expertise...if I was the american psychological association you wouldnt have a license and let me tell you ...firstly to come on this site and put us all down is entirely incoreect..you have no empathy for the uniqunes of ourselve and our thereputic relationships....you dont understand the dynamics and our therapists are able to deal with us. We are not psycho murders nor are we people commiting crimes against anyone.Freud-the greatest thinker alive ..[if u disagree u obviously dont like reading abt sex] anyway if u have read the history freud was accused of making his patients fall in love with him , transferance occured with most of his clients and he understood. He wasnt afraid of it nor did he blame his clients....so maybe you should take out your personal matters with freud!
Secondly there are many ways of dealing with a patient with a BPD ever heard of dialectical behaviour therapy, evre heard about its SUCESS RATE?
"Not only do these teenybopper crushes create severe ethical dilemmas, they also are extremely insulting." firstly teenybopper crushes is a bit extreme - we arent high school kids looking a little boy , some of us arent even "in love" with our therapists which is me for one. why are they extremely insulting? natural feelings occur and some people do experience levels of transferance...as human beings we are entitled to our feelings and have ever right to them...we arent killing our therapists spouses nor are we going to sessions and ripping there clothes off.
for those people who do have romantic intrests in there therapists they know ethics and boundries the same way as therapists do and they know the difference between fantasy and reality.Many therapists make there own decisions and know just how much they can handle....are u saying that all BPD patients need to be instutionlised it is a personality disorder accoring to the DSM! should it just be written off?
I personally use the pic of my therapist for comfort when im feeling down , I dont sit there "getting off" on the picture, I dont put it on the internet or threaten any with it.
You have gone into psychology for the wrong reasons and I question how appropriate you are?
We would never step foot in your office , you clearly have no regard for humanity or the suffering of individuals...what about those patients who came from dysfunctional families and who see therapists in a parental role....I hope you never get any patients like us....we are too good for you...we have more depth and insight into psychology and the thereputic relationship than you do.
these are people in a lot of pain and they dont all have BPD-wrong analyzation-"shrink"!how would u feel if one of us had to kill ourselves due to your words.....what then?
HOPE U ENJOYED THIS LITTLE KODAK MOMENT!
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 5, 2004, at 17:30:13
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by obSession on March 5, 2004, at 17:16:53
I hope you read my post above cause I don't think this person is for real nor does my T...so chill and lets not allow the site to be ruined by this.
A plus is my T may now ask me if I want a picture lol :)
Posted by Apperceptor on March 5, 2004, at 21:11:25
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg » obSession, posted by Fallen4myT on March 5, 2004, at 17:30:13
Whether I am "experienced," or empathic, or even in a good position to be doing therapy right now is certainly up for debate. However, I am in clinical training...that part is for real. While I admire and respect Freud, disagreeing with him on some issues certainly does not make one "non-psychological" (and unfortunately, the current atmosphere seems to feel those who do agree with Freud are the wrong ones. I think he was a lot more intelligent than he is presently getting credit for).
I would not try to pose as a psychologist, nor am I trying to say I am a psychologist. I am a student, and yes, I have my own approach to therapy that will hopefully grow and change between now and beginning practice...God knows it already has in the mere 18 months I've been in this program.
ObSession, to answer two of your points...I am aware of DBT, and I do not think individuals with BPD all need hospitalization; in fact, I've done DBT with borderlines. Marsha Linehan...who could compete with Freud in terms of brilliance, has indeed found a very effective system and I personally love it. I've used "wise mind" with not only BPD clients, but depressed and anxious as well...often with fantastic results. However, part of what I like so much about DBT, is that it is very clear about defining boundaries. In my mind, the picture issue crosses boundaries.
Which brings me to another point...I discussed this issue with my "mentor" in the program today, and she seemed to take a middle line between my own view and those who strongly disagree. I do have respect for your therapists, and if they feel comfortable with the picture issue, I think it's fine. In that sense, I recant what I said last night as applies to your individual cases. However, I still have to hold that I'd really ask clients of all diagnoses, genders, marital statuses, etc, etc, to please consider that their therapists may be extremely uncomfortable with such requests, and in some cases, feel quite violated.
In regard to the mention of my post triggering suicidal feelings, I obviously did not intend for that nor did I anticipate the possiblity. I believe in more of a "tough love" approach. However, if anyone felt hurt to the core by my post, I apologize. If you feel suicidal, whether or not it is due to what was said in my post, please contact someone you know well and trust with your well-being.
If I have caused such pain in someone, I'd like to open up to a personal email or correspondence.
Posted by terrics on March 5, 2004, at 21:51:48
In reply to Y'all are much nicer than me » Apperceptor, posted by gardenergirl on March 5, 2004, at 11:08:05
It always makes me sad when there is conflict here. terrics
Posted by fallsfall on March 5, 2004, at 22:13:06
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by Apperceptor on March 5, 2004, at 21:11:25
>In my mind, the picture issue crosses boundaries.
I have done a lot of reading of psychology books (those targeted at therapists, mostly - I bought Linehan's book and manual 8 years ago), and feel that I have a pretty good understanding for why there are boundaries.
Can you explain why my having a publically available picture of my therapist crosses any boundaries? I don't understand why it would make a therapist uncomfortable to know that I have a picture. Also, why would it be crossing boundaries to ask for a picture if I didn't have one (understanding that he would have the right to say no)?
I do understand that different therapists have different boundaries - because they are different people with different needs. But I'm not understanding why any therapist would feel violated if a patient asked to have a picture of them.
Truly trying to understand your point of view,
Falls
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 0:21:28
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by Apperceptor on March 5, 2004, at 21:11:25
I thought about someones post as well as my therapist's remarks on it. I as well as he, and his many years of experience, feel that it is OK to ask and say anything in therapy. It is the JOB of your therapist to **deal with their own discomfort** IF any, and or seek the help of someone else(supervisor etc) to help them deal with it. It is NOT your job to save your T from discomfort. That is JUST OFF IMO. SO ASK AWAY if you want a picture and you may or may not get it but you WILL get the help of your T in underatanding why you want and need one and it can open up many areas for both of you. These are experienced professionals and they will DEAL with discomfort. Please don't THINK it YOUR job to save your T from discomfort as it IS NOT. AND THAT IS FROM A MAN WHO HAS OVER 15 YEARS AS A PSYCHOLOGIST
Posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by Apperceptor on March 5, 2004, at 21:11:25
-----However, I still have to hold that I'd really ask clients of all diagnoses, genders, marital statuses, etc, etc, to please consider that their therapists may be extremely uncomfortable with such requests, and in some cases, feel quite violated.
For what reasons should they consider if the therapist might potentially feel violated? How would any client know what is comfortable or uncomfortable for the therapist unless s/he has the chance to check it out--which, is to ask the therapist?
I am in grad school myself, training to be an MFT. I have been seeing clients for the past two years, and have been in therapy as a client as well, way before I entered into school. I have felt triggered by many clients, and have consistently found it useful to look at those feelings in order to figure out what is going on in my relationship with each client. Often times, powerful progress can be made through working with transference. To me, that is the meat of the work, and the work is hard, for both the client and the therapist. I love this sentence that I came across a few years back:
All teachers must learn, and all healers must heal.
What makes transference and the attempt of acting out from that transference from clients so threatening, if the therapist is not experencing some sort of counter-transference him/hereself? We are only human, after all. Which makes it extremely important for me to get supervison whenever something powerful in me has been stirred up. For that, I never point the finger at the client. Something in me responded; the fault does not lie with the client for triggering it. I may just not like how I feel at that moment. It simply comes with the job, and I do get tired, burned out, stressed, frustrated, especially when working at a residential setting. Sometimes I want to pull my hair out, but I never do. (Thank God.) However, to blame the client, or to ask the client to behave a certain way just to make me feel relieved, I wonder if I run the risk of re-traumatizing the client since all s/he did was probably just brining their full self into the room. It does not make sense to me to invite someone into a space to open up, and then to penalize them by doing so, just becasue they might be saying something that sounds threatening to me. I know that opening up comes in all shapes and sizes and forms, and it is the very way each client opens up or not that makes this work so creative, for it is a true collaboration at its best.
I must say that I felt threatend and worried when I read the few posts from you. Sometimes I wonder what it means to take on the healer role? It is a tremendous job. It does take a lot of love and compassion, and I do get tired and burned out. I do get angry with the world when I see so many wounded and some of them self-destructive. To feel so is human, and to process my own countertransference is the art. I wonder how many of my colleagues feel the same way, and what is happening in each room with clients. Are they receiving what they need? How can this system be improved? But, I digress. Thoughts such as these were merely triggered by your posts, certainly not caused by them.
I must say though; every single one of my clients has taught me something. With their help, I was able to stretch pass my own narrow views and see that, on some level, everyone's anguish is our own. I read this sentence from another book: the gift of healing that we give is the gift of healing that we receive. I was touched because it did feel like that to sit with a client on many, many occasions. At each termination, I do not hesitate to tell my clients what they have given me: courage, love, compassion, self-care, sense of humor, vitality, trust, connection, intimacy, the list goes on and on.
So, to get back to my original questions: for what reasons should clients consider if the therapist might potentially feel violated? Whose needs will it serve? The client, or the therapist? How would any client know what is comfortable or uncomfortable for the therapist unless s/he has the chance to check it out--which, is to ask the therapist? How will clients know what the therapist's hot buttons and limits are, unless they engage and ask?
And certainly, just in my humble opinion, it's a whole other ball game once the questions are out of the bag. Therapy starts, or gets jump-started. Yay.
Posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:28:29
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
Above post was intended for Apperceptor, and all babblers, of course, if anyone shall want to join in.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2004, at 1:40:41
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by obSession on March 5, 2004, at 17:16:53
> I feel that you demean the folks here...
>
> We have given our lives over to the hands of our therapists ... and that is nothing to take lightly as I feel you have, and even more so, demeaned the whole therapeutic process.
>
> I'm not sure where the agression and underlying demeaning attitude I feel you take with us is coming from, but it is a little frightful to envision the positive effect it would have on a potential client.
>
> tinydancer> to be so cruel as to chew people out for how they feel and work with their experienced therapists ... my T ... said VERY INSENSITIVE and a few more things I will not post.
>
> Fallen4myT> I find her more disturbing than I find us.
>
> if I was the american psychological association you wouldnt have a license
>
> You have gone into psychology for the wrong reasons
>
> We would never step foot in your office , you clearly have no regard for humanity or the suffering of individuals...
>
> obSessionThanks for everyone's efforts to be civil. Practice makes perfect? Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posting something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by tinydancer on March 6, 2004, at 1:42:41
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
Wow. Any anguish I had felt from the earlier post has vanished with your incredibly wise, comforting words. Thank you, that was really touching and important words to hear from someone like you.
Posted by pegasus on March 6, 2004, at 2:14:10
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
I agree with tinydancer. That was a very helpful post. I was feeling very judged and insecure about therapy after Apperceptor's posts. I really appreciate your comments about who it serves to worry about one's therapist. It reminded me of how my old T, when I would be concerned about anything about him, would always tell me that it wasn't my job to worry about him. That he was able to take care of himself, wrt anything that came up.
(((emmaley))) I needed just what you said.
- p
Posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 3:18:37
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg » emmaley, posted by pegasus on March 6, 2004, at 2:14:10
Thank you for your warmth, tinydancer and pegasus. I am glad that some of my words brought you comfort. Makes me feel useful.
Yet, I want to say that I received much help from this board when I first visited as well. I was working out some transference issues with my own therapist last year, and many were kind, warm, helpful and considerate towards me at that time. I was feeling vulnerable, and intellect was of little use. Dinah's suggestion of "In Session" was tremendous. Since then, I have been coming to this board every now and then to learn, and I have learned so much from reading the posts. Internet may be cold, but the emotions contained in words real. I have become quite fond of many here.
Best wishes,
Posted by fallsfall on March 6, 2004, at 9:17:42
In reply to Thank you, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 3:18:37
Please come back and post early and often.
Posted by Dinah on March 6, 2004, at 9:27:52
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
That's how my therapist describes the process, too. But he's really laid back, has tons of experience, and supervises other therapists.
He had a little countertransference problem with me, but seems to have overcome it nicely.
Posted by rs on March 6, 2004, at 11:17:28
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
Thanks for sharing that. That was really comforting here. Say many times hope there are good therapist out there like mine and you are one of them. Best to you. My T would answere anything and he is really honest with me as far as know. That helps therpay with trust so very much
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 12:39:03
In reply to Thank you, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 3:18:37
Thank you from me also a lot of us were hurt insulted and felt attacked by another poster and it seems you and I must have posted on the same subject matter at the same time. This is what I was saying when I said I took that post sent it to my therapist and he made the comments I posted anyhow I hope people read my subject "A comment on if a therapist;s discomfort" I think people need to KNOW they can ask and be themselves in therapy. Good Job
Posted by confetti on March 6, 2004, at 16:28:05
In reply to Re: Do you have a picture of your T?, posted by Apperceptor on March 4, 2004, at 23:46:39
Apperceptor, I don't believe your post was the "inappropriate" part of this thread. In fact, this thread creeped me out so much I'll be getting my advice/tips somewhere else.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 6, 2004, at 16:57:28
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
Oh my gosh, I'm so with you on this. Great post. And I agree with other posts which emphasize that is is the T's responsiblity to deal with anything stirred up in them. It is NOT the client's responsibility to protect the T.
gg
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.