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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on July 8, 2004, at 15:13:17
I went to therapy at the beginning of the week and said that I thought that I needed to pull back. I told him that this intense attachment was just too painful and I was having a hard time between sessions. I had it all worked out in my head before I went into the session, had my reasons lined up and was prepared to "prove" that cutting back on sessions and contact was the best idea.
But once I said the words: I wanted to reduce the amount of contact I had with him, I started to fall apart. His response was, "do you want me to help you pull back?" and I didn't expect that. I asked him how he would do that, he said he wasn't sure, he'd have to think about it. He wanted to know exactly what I had been thinking about and said he could certainly understand how the work we were doing would make me feel more lonely irl. He said he wanted to respond to this part of me that was pulling away and would respect whatever decision I came to about the amount of contact we had. He also asked if the homework writing had led me to this conclusion. I got more and more upset as this discussion went on, there was a war raging in my head about needing him and running from him. I told him I felt rejected on all sides and left in tears. I had a horrible night, bouncing between the "I've ruined everything" thoughts to the "he is obviously tired of me and wants to pull back too" thoughts.
I was really anxious when I went in yesterday. He asked me if I could explain why I was so upset when I left. I told him about my conflicting thoughts, all the mind chasing I had done and told him I was upset with him for not giving his opinion straight out. I also admitted that I was hurt because I thought he was agreeing with me, even though I "started" the conversation. And I was so CONFUSED.
He nodded and said he was pretty sure that was what I would say He said he had felt frustrated when I left that he had let things get out of hand. That he actually felt strongly that I shouldn't cut back sessions and he had been trying to give me room to reach that conclusion myself. Because he thought the tears were from the little kid-me who wanted and needed him and wanted a lot of the contact. He admitted that he thought she would protest strongly about less contact when he asked about helping me cut back. But when I got more confused and then left, he said he knew he should have just give have given his opinion straight out, and advocated more strongly for my little kid needs. He said he sometimes forgets how hard it is for me to see that "just" wanting something is a good enough reason to get it.
We spent the rest of the session exploring my fears and whether less contact would really help between sessions. He didn't think so. In fact, he thinks more check-ins, more contact, not less, is what I need right now. He talked a lot about how this deep work is regressive and how we then need to respond to those parts with as much security as possible. That my feelings were "childlike" not "childish." I asked him if it was hard to work with so many age states and he said no, he thought this was the most satisfying kind of work and the most healing. He also talked about how we have a cultural bias against dependency of any kind, but in particular against any on your therapist. He said he can't figure out how people can confide their darkest thoughts and most vulnerable fears to someone yet be expected to not get attached to this confidant. That's why he uses the word "attachment" instead of "dependency" because it is less pejorative. I asked how he felt about "forever therapy" (Dinah!) and he smiled and said he was fine with that, "however long you need me."
It still felt a little like sparring, it wasn't all warm and fuzzy. I think because I am still conflicted about what I need from him between sessions. Somehow it seems to be "just" knowing he is still out here, still exists for me to reach out to if I need him. And I still can't put away the fears that he is going to get tired of me. My dreams last night were that he was really angry at me for continually "testing" him.
*sigh*
I wish there was a way to get past this. And STAY past it.
Posted by rs on July 8, 2004, at 15:55:14
In reply to Attachment struggles - again!, posted by daisym on July 8, 2004, at 15:13:17
((((((Daisy)))))
Oh please let him take care of you and the little girl. It is ok. Really. You both deserve it. He wants to help you and be there. You suffered alone long enough. Daisy I understand how it feels to be needy on people especially a therapist. How true what your T said about how some think its wrong to feel needy on a therapist. You know if ok to share the other day was telling my T how lonely it is because when haveing a hard time there is no one I can just call and talk with. Issues are way to much for friends or anyone I know. Husband supports to a certain degree. Anyway he said I could call him anytime. He once gave me his home number but could never do that. Would suffer much before that. Anyway I said I cannot do that because you are a therapist and a professional. He said but I am a person.
Please let him take care of you. Daisy right now the work you are doing is hard, painful etc. I understand that and know how it feels. You deserve to be taken care of and helped as much as he is willing to give you. He is not going to leave you or tell you to leave. Also I think he would be honored if you were to tell him how much you need him along with the little girl and that is ok with both of you.
Thanks so much for all that you share. Wish you the best and thoughts are with you. When do you see T again? Your a wonderful person
Posted by rs on July 8, 2004, at 16:11:23
In reply to Attachment struggles - again!, posted by daisym on July 8, 2004, at 15:13:17
Sorry Daisy me again. this is weird. As soon as I posted to you my T called. Have a session tomorrow. He called to say he unexpectely has his daughter so he needs to cancell. But he said he would see me on Sat am. Now do you think he feels I am needy???????? Had to share that with you that you are not alone in your feelings. I am needy but as you not in any wrong ways. I cannot do this alone especially right now neither can you. Am I assuming? Do I feel right about it? Not at all. But the pain that is there I have no choice to accept the help and know that some day it will be ok. Daisy some day we will both be happy and strong. We will never forget but hopefully we will be able to live with it and find some peace. We are both very fourtanate people that have therapists that are there for us and care and are willing to help us. So what if we are there most neediest clients someone must keep them on their toes.lol. Thanks Daisy for listening to me.
Posted by B2chica on July 8, 2004, at 16:25:46
In reply to Attachment struggles - again!, posted by daisym on July 8, 2004, at 15:13:17
this sounds like a very difficult and confusing situation.
i'm afraid i don't have any sound advice about this but i wanted to say that it does sound like you have a wonderful T that certainly has your best interests at heart. And i also wanted to say that i was Very impressed in how you are able to tell him Exactly what you are feeling and needing at this time. This is just so incredibly important. I hope someday soon i can get to this point where you're at with your T.
I also wanted to make sure that you know that i care very much about you and just wanted to give you some super cyber hugs.
(((((((((((Daisy))))))))))))))b2c.
Posted by Dinah on July 8, 2004, at 16:31:18
In reply to Attachment struggles - again!, posted by daisym on July 8, 2004, at 15:13:17
Daisy, I just had to laugh when I read your post. Not that your pain is funny of course, but it is soooo much what I go through. The one part of me that wants to see him *no more*, and probably less, than once a week. The other part that gets terrified at the thought of only going once a week even when things are going great and even the needy part of me is a bit bored in therapy. Just last week, when he set up this week's appointments, I wanted to say, hey let's just meet once, but I grew dizzy at the very thought. So I made two appointments as usual but grown up me cancelled one, making needy me dizzy again although I lived through it.
And the week before last, grown up me wanted to save money because I had seen him four times the week before that. So when I made the appointment to see him twice, I actually told him I would probably call to cancel and asked him not to accept the cancellation. Then I instantly realized what a horrible situation I had put him in, and retracted. He said that as long as I guaranteed that I'd be there (or pay if I weren't) he would hold my space, even if I called to cancel. But it truly is horrible of me to place him in the middle of my internal struggles, even if he *is* the center of many of my internal struggles. :))
Anyway, I understand perfectly. It's hard to balance the needs of the sensible you and the needy emotional you. If you try to do what's sensible, you'll end up pitching a fit and losing your productivity anyway. If you don't do what's sensible, you're disgusted with yourself. Or that's my experience at least. It might not be yours.
Sigh.
My therapist's position has been to support the wishes of needy, emotional me, and actively campaign against session reduction. But... sometimes that upsets me too. I wonder if he's milking me for cash, or if he thinks I'm that crazy. On the other hand, I get terrified if he easily agrees to reducing sessions.
Sigh.
Posted by tabitha on July 8, 2004, at 19:18:28
In reply to Attachment struggles - again!, posted by daisym on July 8, 2004, at 15:13:17
Here's a rant about me and my therapist and my attachment experience, because that's pretty much all I think about right now.
I've been told it's a healthy attachment, she's said I'll be here for you as much as you need me, she's let me have sessions with no set time duration, sometimes lasting nearly 3 hours, plus phone support between sessions. My prior therapist left town in the middle of my therapy. She assured me she wasn't going anywhere. I said what if you get hit by a bus, she said I'm not going to get hit by a bus (bit of a conceit, don't you think? she's not immortal.)
Beyond that, she actively encouraged me to have more of an emotional attachment to her. She made some remark about how I was reluctant to admit I had any attachment. I thought 'oh no, I'm not normal. I'm cold. I need to get emotionally attached to my therapist in order to grow as a person.' She told me many clients are more.. not sure the word she used.. but I got the idea they were more affectionate than me. So I made an effort to bond. I started seeing her as my new replacement mother. Now I'm attached. I'm not sure that would have happened if she hadn't encouraged it.
And this all happened right about the time I was feeling like I was pretty stable in my life, and I'd reduced my meds to nearly nothing, and not much was happening anymore in therapy, and I was still a little draggy and depressed at times, but wondering if I needed therapy anymore. In retrospect, maybe that was the time to make a graceful exit?
But anyway.. when they encourage this dependence, and we get into this crazy drama of abandonment/engulfment fear.. I just have to wonder if it's really therapeutic. Sure, we all seem to have this ability to get attached to them, but is it useful to bring it out?
I mean, here I am, an adult, with a huge emotional attachment to a person I know nothing about, and get to see a few hours a week at most, and get to pay a couple hundred dollars every time I need her. That doesn't really sound entirely good does it? Sure the attachment seems OK when it seems to be helping your life. But it's stopped seeming like it's helping, and I'm still stuck with the attachment.
She tells me this is just my trust issue, how when I get close I decide it isn't safe. So it's like a closed system. I'm trapped. If I decide to leave, well that's just proof I haven't resolved my trust issue. It's pretty infuriating.
Posted by shortelise on July 8, 2004, at 19:54:01
In reply to Attachment struggles - again!, posted by daisym on July 8, 2004, at 15:13:17
I think I love your T. Yes, I'm joking - but he sounds wonderful. Mine is a lot like that, too, or was when we were in that phase of therapy. Now we are in termination and I hate his guts.
:-)I got a stuffed animal (a nice Disney series Piglet) and carried it around in my handbag (he stuck out the top) with me for a while. Got lots of funnny looks, also got lots of smiles and warmth from people. It was a sort of security thing, and it helped.
In my mind, I saw myself leaning against him, a small pseron, a child, sucking my thumb in perfect quiet contentment.
Attachment is so hard, esp because he's a paid person and it's part of his job.
The situation you describe is so close to what I have been through! It drives me crazy when I can't get him to say what I need to hear.
Sorry if this is garbled - it's just that I really feel what you wrote and it's hard to intellectualize it.
Shorte
Posted by Pfinstegg on July 8, 2004, at 20:07:18
In reply to Re: Attachment struggles - again!, posted by tabitha on July 8, 2004, at 19:18:28
I have all these same feelings, too! Since my T. is dealing with me as a person with different "self-states", we are often bouncing around between secure attachment, which feels wonderful,various states of insecure attachment (these feelings are associated with ambivalence, feelings that I am a burden, etc.) and detachment, when I often feel that I am not really safe in his office, am not sure whether he is the right T. for me, and feel it would be better to run out and not come back. I can run through all of these *states* several times in each session! At first, I was unaware that I was changing from one self-state to another. I would just find myself with a set of feelings which seemed like the only ones I would ever have. He kept pointing out the sudden shifts, and now I am usually able to see them occurring myself. I don't like some of these states at all- they are very painful; but he keeps mentioning that each feeling has good reasons for existing. This helps a lot. We can then usually go on to explore when and why these feelings occured in childhood, and how they are still locked up in me, repeatedly bursting forth and then disappearing again. I can really empathize with everyone one this thread. Who would ever want to do such a painful thing as therapy if they didn't need to?
Posted by Dinah on July 9, 2004, at 12:16:21
In reply to Attachment struggles - again!, posted by daisym on July 8, 2004, at 15:13:17
My long rambling post. Sigh.
But the upshot was that this was the topic of my therapy session today. How I wanted to make only one appointment per week, because I was afraid if I made two I would keep cancelling one and he would get angry. And that I didn't think it was fair of me to put him in the middle by asking him to refuse to cancel. So I thought it would be overall best to just make one appointment a week.
He said he didn't mind risking the wrath of my rational self, and would from now on require that all cancellations have his permission. We're supposed to talk about it more on Monday.
And we also talked about my fear that he was starting to hold less magic. That part of the magic was in his old office. He thinks the magic never resided in him (or his office) but any "magic" was in the therapeutic relationship we had built over the years. By struggling through conflict and working on commitment.
Silly man.
Posted by Dinah on July 9, 2004, at 12:26:53
In reply to I can't believe my post disappeared!!!, posted by Dinah on July 9, 2004, at 12:16:21
Posted by terrics on July 10, 2004, at 17:27:28
In reply to Attachment struggles - again!, posted by daisym on July 8, 2004, at 15:13:17
I think the attachment thing is the most difficult thing to work out in therapy.I realize that having an audience all to yourself [ourselves is what I mean]is great. No one else is going to do that for us...well maybe occasionally. I wonder what causes this most painful thing and why we keep going back for more? terrics
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