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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 10:04:22
It's hard to tell whether sleep deprived and revved up insights are profundities or gibberish.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 10:56:02
In reply to Ah Hah? or Huh?, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 10:04:22
I was meditating on the meaning of my existance in the middle of the night last night after rushing my youngest dog to the vet, and came up with a startling insight. I think the seed of the insight was my therapist telling me (not at that moment - I didn't call him in the middle of the night, he told me this recently, but not for the dog thing) that everying would be ok (my standard question to him) because he had every confidence in my strength to deal with whatever came up. He couldn't say that external circumstances would be ok, but he had faith in me.
I'm used to thinking of myself as having disorders, but I was realizing how terribly functional some of those disorders are. And I started thinking of myself as just different. It's hard to reconstruct that middle of the night insight. But it was something along the lines of that I was a specialist, not a generalist. I was a very specialized and rather high maintenance tool in the toolchest of life, but no less valuable than the more versatile and sturdier tools. That many many eons ago, it was helpful in any given tribe of humans to have many generalists but a few specialists, and that allowances were made for the downside of being a specialist because the abilities were highly prized. But that in today's world of standardization, specialists don't offer quite as much of a value to cost ratio and so aren't as highly prized. It's not so much that I and others like me have a disorder, as that I have different strengths and weaknesses and that it is society that makes it a disorder.
I may be blabbering so a few examples.
My dissociative skills can at times be a problem, especially to me as a person. But they benefit society by letting me compartmentalize beautifully.
I can't believe my husband is the certified genius in the family. :) He may be great at spatial manipulations, but I am great at quickly assimilating information, seeing a broad range of possibilities, devising alternate routes to the same goal, and being flexible in getting there. While he needs a plan and is remarkably slow to see that the plan needs frequent adjustments to outside input. At my best I annoy the life out of many because I understand quickly what people are trying to convey, and at business meetings I tend to ping pong back and forth with the person trying to convey the information while not being as good at helping others grasp what's going on. My husband doesn't think much of my abilities and denigrates me and my disabilities (being constitutionally incapable of getting out of the house without forgetting a dozen things along the way for example). Work isn't crazy about my style either.
I either rev at 75 mph or 5 mph, and seem incapable of going a steady 35 mph. All the above things are true of me at my best. At my worst, I sleep for days at a time and can't remember my phone number.
I've been exploiting my ability to go 75 more and more and it's getting easier and easier. Now I don't do it just for work, I also use it for fun. To indulge my enthusiasms. It's getting easier and easier to go through periods where I just forget to eat and sleep, then crash into stupor. It's been getting progressively more and more that way since my son's birth, when a number of things may be singly responsible or might be working together to make it so. Hormones, stress, diabetes, decreased hours at work while maintaining the same work output, increased responsibilities at work which include scheduling myself. And I'm awful at prioritizing so I tend to get bogged down getting things right and let getting them out on time slide till the last minute. Then I pull an all nighter. Then crash. And it's getting easier and easier to do.
But I imagine that that quality was very useful to the tribe at times. For one or two members to be that way. It's not a disorder or illness. It's an adaptive variation.
Same with my obsessiveness. It can be a problem at times, but at other times it's very adaptive.
It all depends where it's focussed.Everything that is a weakness in me can also be seen as a strength. Well, almost everything. Hmmm...
I have finely stretched nerves that don't really take much to send me careening to over-activity or stupor or complete meltdown. I suppose.... hmmm... those nerves also make me highly attuned to my environment and thus aid in decision making. Although at other times I can be completely and totally oblivious to my environment. Hmmmm....
I'm trying to figure all of this out. I might run it by my therapist or even my medical psychiatrist since it is almost certainly a physical thing. But I wonder if it shouldn't be called a "disorder" but rather a "differently ordered".
Posted by Susan47 on September 17, 2004, at 11:22:42
In reply to aka Disorder or Difference, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 10:56:02
Hi sweetie, (hope you don't mind me saying that) from your post: "I'm used to thinking of myself as having disorders, but I was realizing how terribly functional some of those disorders are. And I started thinking of myself as just different. It's hard to reconstruct that middle of the night insight. But it was something along the lines of that I was a specialist, not a generalist. I was a very specialized and rather high maintenance tool in the toolchest of life, but no less valuable than the more versatile and sturdier tools. That many many eons ago, it was helpful in any given tribe of humans to have many generalists but a few specialists, and that allowances were made for the downside of being a specialist because the abilities were highly prized. But that in today's world of standardization, specialists don't offer quite as much of a value to cost ratio and so aren't as highly prized. It's not so much that I and others like me have a disorder, as that I have different strengths and weaknesses and that it is society that makes it a disorder.
I may be blabbering so a few examples."
You're not blabbering at all; in fact, I (being someone like you I suspect) couldn't agree with you more. Insights in the middle of the night can be more intense, I think, in that they have a reality we're not allowed in the middle of the day. Our minds are no longer distracted by daytime stuff and we're allowed to focus more on main issues about ourselves and our lives.
I think you're brilliant.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 12:33:24
In reply to aka Disorder or Difference, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 10:56:02
Dinah,
I think that's a very (at the risk of using another one of *those* words) healthy way to view things. We all do have strengths and weaknesses. And disorders are determined based on population studies. Which means in general...if you are different you are disordered. Yuck!Good thinking on this. Sorry if it came within insomnia...sleep is good. But something good did come out of it.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by AuntieMel on September 17, 2004, at 12:38:00
In reply to aka Disorder or Difference, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 10:56:02
I emailed someone yesterday that "I am someone who has always been 'different' in a world where conformity is king."
And a quick comment to say that being a "certified genius" and a buck-fifty will get you a coffee, good grades and not much else. Trust me.
And the rest of what you wrote is wonderful insight! Be quick - of mind and feet. Compartmentalize to your heart's content. Be flexible. Enjoy your strengths and work on turning the remaining weaknesses into other strengths.
Is it possible that this was what your therapist was talking about when he said 'be genuine?'
Posted by Aphrodite on September 17, 2004, at 12:49:54
In reply to aka Disorder or Difference, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 10:56:02
At the risk of repeating myself, you have amazing insight. I believe that is your thinking is on target about it not being a disorder. I would like to meet the "normally functioning" person that we are supposed to conform to. Your gift is in knowing your strengths and weaknesses and being the better for it.
Your comment about being a specialist and how that would have been an advantage under other circumstances reminded me of something I read once of physical maladies that were once helpful. For instance, diabetes was once a condition that helped people survive in times of little food or too much of only one kind of diet. Now, what was once useful interferes with the health of someone living in this day and age.
It seems perfectly understandable that during bouts of sleeplessness, we are in an altered state of consciousness. This particular one for you clarified an issue.
Posted by Aphrodite on September 17, 2004, at 12:51:37
In reply to Re: aka Disorder or Difference » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on September 17, 2004, at 12:49:54
I hope your dogs are well soon. I know my pets are my family and how devasting their ill health can be.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 19:13:22
In reply to Re: aka Disorder or Difference » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on September 17, 2004, at 12:49:54
I brought it up with my therapist. He reminded me that he had mentioned something similar when I first started seeing him presenting with panic attacks. He uses the simile of people with panic attacks having personality characteristics and physiological differences that cause them to be like thoroughbreds. That they have many useful qualities but just need to take special care of themselves to keep in top condition. Which is not precisely what I meant, but close enough I guess. What I meant was more what Aphrodite said. That it was probably useful to have a few bipolar (or panic disorder or gad or ocd, etc.) people in a group. It was adaptive for sniffing the air for sabertooth tigers or having bursts of unnatural energy when needed or being aware of subtle changes in the environment.
But then I got fussed at for living more and more at the extremes, at high or low speeds, and spending less and less time going 35 mph. He's afraid of kindling, while being sympathetic to the fact that it feels good. It was the end of session, but I suspect I'll see more of this topic. :(
Posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 23:59:44
In reply to Re: aka Disorder or Difference, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 19:13:22
Dinah,
I went to a Jungian lecture tonight, and it got me to thinking about your post. I will write more later when my head isn't buzzing with all the stimuli.Take care,
gg
Posted by Colleen D. on September 18, 2004, at 13:51:13
In reply to aka Disorder or Difference, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 10:56:02
My therapist and I were just talking about this yesterday and I came away from that session thinking about the "positives" of my OCD behavior. I actually felt a bit proud of myself for a change as I mostly think of myself being "defective" because of these behaviors.
:-) Colleen
Posted by Racer on September 18, 2004, at 17:47:58
In reply to Re: aka Disorder or Difference, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 19:13:22
Thoroughbreds are difficult beasts, unless you respect their unique characteristics. If you spend a lot of time around horses, you'll find that there are very few people who say they can take 'em or leave 'em -- instead, you find that people either say they're the best, or say they're so psycho that they're not worth feeding. (I happen to be a TB person, but only because I'm built that way, emotionally.)
Now, with thoroughbreds, you have to decide what you want. Do you want a nice, easy time of it? Do you want to concentrate on what you're doing? Or do you want to split your attention between whatever you're doing and how the horse is responding to the environment? For some, the extra effort involved in dealing with the thoroughbred is well worth it, because the rewards can be so great. For others, well, it's just not.
What makes the thoroughbred so different is described by TB people as "heart" -- being willing to give his or her all in order to please. The non-TB folks call that "being psycho". It really does involve a real lack of that instinct for self-preservation, though. A common enough story is trying to teach a TB to stand tied by hard tying him -- only to have him fight so hard to escape that he breaks his own neck. Most horses will fight until it hurts, then stop. Thoroughbreds, though, will keep fighting.
While I have no problem with you being like a thoroughbred, Dinah, I suggest that you consider being like a TB-cross, instead. Water down that extreme side, in order to protect yourself. Especially since half the world won't think putting up with it is worth the effort.
Beyond that, though, I wanted to say that I had a violent reaction to some stressors a few weeks ago that led to two nights of total insomnia, and resulting racing thoughts and speediness. It was scary -- bless Garndergirl for helping me through it, by the way -- but all those thoughts that were chasing each other through my mind did actually lead someplace good. I do believe that those episodes can lead to real discoveries, although I think the slow and steady method may be less exhausting ;-)
So, there are benefits from being the Naturally Extreme Dinah, but there are also benefits to being a slightly toned down Dinah. Whichever you choose to be, I'll still like you -- in case you're wondering.
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 20:29:46
In reply to Re: aka Disorder or Difference, posted by Colleen D. on September 18, 2004, at 13:51:13
Now there's a disorder with some real positives! Assuming it isn't so extreme that you can't leave the house or get anything at all done. But a mild to moderate case has some real upsides. It's the one I play up for my employers while downplaying the others. When I was on Luvox, I used to miss my OCD in ways. Not that I missed anxiety or panic attacks. But I missed that constant running commentary on my day playing in the background and telling me (in the middle of the night of course) what I had forgotten to do or any mistakes I made. Sure it was wrong a lot of times. But it was right often enough for it to give me a measure of security.
What do you see as the positives to your OCD?
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 20:30:51
In reply to Re: aka Disorder or Difference » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 23:59:44
And I find my own brand of sort-of meditation really helps calm my buzzing overstimulated head.
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 20:42:01
In reply to Thoroughbreds... » Dinah, posted by Racer on September 18, 2004, at 17:47:58
I'm glad. :)
I think I teeter between being naturally extreme and being toned down. But I'm inordinately fortunate in that my extremes aren't that extreme, I don't think. I said 5 or 95, but it might be better to say 5 or 80. Over the speed limit, but not too dangerously so.
As long as the important people in my life thought it was worth it, I'd be happy to annoy the others. :) But I'm not sure if my husband cares for it overmuch. And I can see how it can be annoying.
Please never tell a soul I said this. ;) But I think I remind me of my mother in a lot of ways. Not just that I look like her. But I remember her enthusiasms. She'd start a project and stay up night and day working on it, then just run out of steam and go to sleep for a month. So our house was littered with the detritis of dead projects. And we'd have to walk around them. (I suppose I'm different because I pick up the pieces or at least let someone else pick them up.) My therapist says her hoarding behavior has the same genetic roots as my OCD. She could be extraordinarily good at accomplishing whatever goal she set out to accomplish. She used a few methods I'd never dream of using. But I see a similarity. And I *know* how difficult it was to live with her, and I'd never wish that on my son. So I do see the benefit of modifying my extremes where necessary.
Ok, I must mitigate what I just said somewhat. I'm like her in some ways, but not all ways. I don't have an explosive temper. I don't see the people around me as being mere extensions of myself with no more right to exist on their own than her arm or leg has. And I'm not nearly as stubborn. I've told my husband that if I ever get too much like my mom to divorce me and remove our son from my influence.
Posted by Colleen D. on September 18, 2004, at 23:54:30
In reply to Re: aka Disorder or Difference » Colleen D., posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 20:29:46
I am highly organized for the most part (as organized as a stay-at-home mom of 3 who are 5, 2 and 1, can be) and I love disecting things and analyzing them. I tend to be a bit on the perfectionistic side, so I'm reliable and dedicated to whatever project I'm working on. That's all I can think of at 12:30 a.m. as I type this. Let me sleep on it!
:-) Colleen
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 12:34:12
In reply to Well... » Dinah, posted by Colleen D. on September 18, 2004, at 23:54:30
That sounds like a good start, Colleen. :)
I know that my OCD contributes to my being very good at what I do professionally. My work is very very accurate. And I'm conscientious. My mood disorder keeps me from being as reliable as I'd like and everything seems to be done under the gun. But overall, part of what makes me a good employee is my OCD.
My husband has a lot of OCD traits, and I'd say the same about him.
I also have had discussions with people who have had trouble keeping good accurate workers in positions where they'd like to have little turnover and high accuracy. I tell them to look for someone with OCD or OCD traits. We tend not to like change, so aren't as likely to trade up in jobs. And we're reliable and accurate. And while they have to put up with a bit in the way of soothing anxiety and resistance to change, it's a good payoff for that type of position.
I can definitely see the role that mild to moderate OCD plays in keeping society running smoothly.
You must have good calm nerves along with that OCD though. Three kids five and under!!! I'd be so overstimulated, I'd be nothing but a gibbering wreck. Congratulations on a job well done. :)
Posted by Colleen D. on September 20, 2004, at 20:50:32
In reply to Re: Well... » Colleen D., posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 12:34:12
I am the same way. My OCD is what I play up on my resume and my longest running jobs have involved "detail" work. My dark days have made me miss work or become downright ornery with co-workers who end up pushing extra work my way because I'm so dang competent.
I wouldn't say I've got good calm nerves but I have really pushed myself to adapt to the constant stimulation. I went back on meds and I'm SO much more stable than I was off them, but I still have those days when I want to get in the van and drive away. I could never really leave my little sweeties though! :-)
Thanks, Dinah, for making me feel good!
Colleen
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