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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on October 24, 2004, at 1:16:18
I've been struggling the past few weeks with making myself leave at the end of a session. I usually control the clock and "dismiss" myself. It is rare for him to have to say, "we need to stop" and I hate it when I lose track. I feel like I've broken a rule somehow. But I've noticed how much harder it is for me to get up and go. I told him this on Thursday, and said maybe he needs to take back over this part of things, as I felt bad about always going over. He (of course!) wants to talk about this more, why I'm willing to give up the control and why it is so hard to leave, etc.
I noticed that Antigua said she has a hard time when her therapist walks her to the door, like she is being shooed away for the next client, and LGL had it in her post too...
My question is -- how common is this? Does everyone struggle with leaving. Not necessarily missing their therapists, but leaving the session. And does anyone have any great ideas for getting yourself ready to go?
I have to go now... :)
Daisy
Posted by Skittles on October 24, 2004, at 2:25:17
In reply to Leaving is so hard to do!, posted by daisym on October 24, 2004, at 1:16:18
I have no great ideas to offer. I'd chain myself to her sofa if I could figure out a way to do it. The way her office is arranged, I can't see a clock, so the end is always a complete shock to me and I hate it.
Posted by Annierose on October 24, 2004, at 6:59:51
In reply to Re: Leaving is so hard to do!, posted by Skittles on October 24, 2004, at 2:25:17
I cannot see the clock either. But I can sort of feel when the time is up. I am usually lying down, eyes closed, but she'll start to wrap things up. If I'm sad, crying, upset, etc, she'll
lighten up the conversation prior to the ending time. Sometimes I can't wait to leave, I want to bolt from the pain I was discussing. Others, I want to bask in her warmth and postive regard. This is what makes me uncomfortable. I take my shoes off (because I lie down). So it's always awkward for me, when she tells me "we have to stop" (or something like that) and I get up (head is sometimes all dizzy), I fumble getting my shoes on, and I feel this awkward-her-looking-at- me-slience. She remains seated until I stand up and head towards the door. She'll say good-bye, or something to that effect. But I feel a need to mumble something while I fuss with my shoes. In the summer, I wouldn't bother putting my sandles on. I'd just walk out of her office barefoot. This shouldn't be so hard, nor should I ponder this so much. Therapy really takes a huge room in my brain.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2004, at 8:50:13
In reply to Leaving is so hard to do!, posted by daisym on October 24, 2004, at 1:16:18
I honestly don't do it consciously. And I don't do it all the time, just when I'm upset. But maybe I do tend to mention things while we're standing at his desk attending to business. I like to think that I do it because I have a few minutes to think about what was said, and that brings up questions or observations. But maybe not. My therapist never indulges me though, or so rarely that it's not worth doing if I am doing it to prolong the session. :)
While we're sitting I used to watch the time and leave before he could dismiss me. Now I often let him pick up his pad and use that as a hint.
But...
He used to short change me all the time. We'd start late and he'd expect me to leave on time. So now if he picks up his pad, and I know it's not time I just keep talking. Or I ask him if we hadn't started late today? Or sometimes I just leave because I'm finished.
I confronted him a few years ago on the "catching up time" with me, and he did get better at it. In fact the other day, there was a bit of confusion with two clients showing up at once. He said it was an error on the other client's part. And we started really really late. And when I was finished and getting ready to leave, he kept sitting there. He said he didn't want to give me something to hang over his head for years. That made me feel sort of bad. :( I didn't think I was that tough on him.
Posted by just plain jane on October 24, 2004, at 9:06:57
In reply to Re: Leaving is so hard to do!, posted by Annierose on October 24, 2004, at 6:59:51
Over many years of off and on therapy with lots of different Ts I've felt this problem often.
I am a tenacious, stubborn, willful, determined, angry, happy independent person who has so deeply ingrained the need to be not controlled that I guess I've pounded it into my head not to get attached past a certain point, no matter how much I like/love my mental health care professionals.
Dependency on any one person or "group" is, to me, psychic strangulation.
Hmmmm... I'm thinking perhaps because I trust only so far, and know, from my entire life experience, that that line cannot be crossed.
My T thinks maybe someday I'll realize there are good people out there, people I can depend on, can trust. Well, yeaaauh, no shyt. I already realize it. But it still only gets to the point of my personal force field.
Like the saying in some business:
Trust in God, all others pay cash.I trust in God.
Next, in animals;
All others...
Well...
All others are human.just like me
jpj
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2004, at 9:15:11
In reply to Leaving, posted by just plain jane on October 24, 2004, at 9:06:57
How about trusting some of the people some of the time? :)
I have a hard time with trust, too. But I can trust people who have earned my trust, in the areas they've earned my trust.
For example, I trust my husband to honor the commitment of our marriage and not to divorce me and not to have an affair and to fulfill his responsibilities to the best of his ability. I don't trust him to have a steady temper or trust him with my vulnerable emotions.
I trust my therapist implicitly in some ways but not in others.
I don't think anyone in the world is completely trustworthy. But I think lots of people are trustworthy in certain areas. If only to be unpleasant consistently. :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on October 24, 2004, at 11:59:32
In reply to Leaving is so hard to do!, posted by daisym on October 24, 2004, at 1:16:18
Oh, excellent topic! I have a very hard time leaving each session; in the beginning, it was so bad I began to dread leaving the moment I walked in! It's better than that now, but it's still a big heart-ache. he says lots of good things to try and help, such as, "we are only interrupting temporarily- we will always be continuing tomorrow". Recently, he asked if it would make it easier if we made a point of bringing me back to my adult self with a few moments of conversation. We have been doing that, and it does help, although, of course, the adult me mostly wants to talk about how the ending feels completely permanent to the younger *me's*! Still, that does give me a more balanced view, and makes leaving a bit easier. He also offered to shake hands at the end of each session: *I* thought that was a good idea, but told him that the *girl* didn't agree, and felt she needed to wait until touching his hand felt safe. He said, "I think the girl appreciates that you are respecting her feelings." I also deeply appreciate how well he understands all these feelings, and how he has tried to make things a bit easier if he can. So, we have a mutual "see you tomorrow" or "have a good weekend", and I manage to get out the door. With him, there aren't phone calls outside of the daily sessions, so I need to do my best to carry his presence inside of me until next time.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 24, 2004, at 14:32:02
In reply to Re: Leaving is so hard to do! » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on October 24, 2004, at 11:59:32
Oh yes, great topic. My T used to have a clock where I could see it. Since I am terrible with time, just terrible (I swear, it's a brain deficit!), I kind of miss seeing the clock. I wasn't one to watch it constantly, but I hate hearing "we need to stop". It does feel disappointing and kind of like a gentle criticism or nudge...I am almost wanting to type "spank".
As far as leaving, sometimes it's much worse than others. There have been times I've busted loose with more crying as soon as the session ended, because I didn't want to leave the safety of his office. I also tend to make small talk as we are rescheduling. Hmm, I never thought of this as attempting to extend, but now that I think about what y'all have said, and my new client who constantly presses time, hmmmm, must be something to it. I can't really remember many times when I just bounded out the door feeling good. :)
Someday, sigh.
gg
Posted by fallsfall on October 24, 2004, at 15:05:47
In reply to Re: Leaving is so hard to do!, posted by gardenergirl on October 24, 2004, at 14:32:02
Leaving *is* so hard to do.
I can probably count on one hand the number of times that I have wanted to leave a session early (in 10 years of therapy...). He will say "We have to stop now" sometimes adding "but we can talk about this again next time" or even "I think we should talk about this again". When I have my act together (2% of the time?), it is fine - he has just finished his summary interpretation, and I feel like we accomplished something, that I understand things a little better. I get up, hand him his check, say thank you and walk out the door.
The other 97 1/2% of the time he says it is time to stop and I sit there trying to decide if there is anything else that I need to say before I leave. Or if there is something I can ask that will make the days between appointments easier. Or if there is something I need him to say. Occasionally I do find a parting comment or question, but usually it is more like I have to pull myself together so that I can get out the door.
There are days when I sit there waiting and hoping that he'll say a particular thing. That he'll read my mind and know what I need. That he'll suddenly change his mind from what he has been saying all session and come around to *my* way of thinking. That he'll feel bad about how he's been acting, or feel sorry for me, or that he'll say something sweet and comforting. I know that I have to get up, but I need more from him.
Sometimes I sit a long time (3 - 5 minutes), crying. He usually just sits in silence watching me. Some days he's in a hurry and he'll say "we really have to stop now" - sometimes more than once... Sometimes I think I am trying to punish him by not leaving - sort of "I'm going to stay here until you make me feel better". Sometimes I don't want to get up because I'll have to walk down the short hallway to the bathroom before I can lock myself in and not have to let people see me crying (there is never anyone in the hallway...). Sometimes I think that if I get up that I will just collapse under the weight of everything.
When I'm mad at him I don't say "Thank you" or "Good bye". Once I slammed the door (I will *NEVER* do that again, boy did he have a fit). I often don't look at him when I leave.
I write him a check while I'm waiting before the session and put it sticking out of the back pocket of my pocket book, so the check is easy to get to so I can hand it to him. When I have a check from the insurance company too, I tell him "It's payday!" He gives me a bill/receipt on Fridays (he used to give me one every day, but I think he got tired of writing them out, I see him 3X a week). Sometimes I have run out of checks and forgot to put more in my pocketbook, so at the beginning of the session I tell him I don't have a check for him - he never has a problem with that, and I always pay the next time. The last time I ran out of checks I complained that I write a lot of checks "and it is all your fault!". He said I could pay once a week instead of every session. But I was quick to answer that for some reason I like paying him every session. It gives me a good record of when I see him (and since I often can't remember what happened earlier in the week, this is the only way to keep such a record). But it also gives me a chance every session to remember that there is a balance in the relationship - he gives me his time, I give him my money. And, I think most importantly, it gives me a chance to almost touch him - like "connection" flows through the paper from my fingers to his. Sounds pretty strange...
There have been days when I've wanted to throw the check at him. I think that there may have been one day when I put it on the stool between our chairs instead of handing it to him. I think that usually, though, it is more a message of "I pay you on time, and never make you have to come after me for money" (though occasionally when the insurance company is slow he'll ask me to call them). In return, I expect him to be reliably there for my sessions. I don't want to give him any reason to leave me.
Posted by Klokka on October 24, 2004, at 15:08:27
In reply to Leaving is so hard to do!, posted by daisym on October 24, 2004, at 1:16:18
I've been having a relatively easy time with leaving sessions since my pdoc returned from vacation, but before that it was usually difficult and that was also the case this past Friday. To make matters worse, my pdoc often doesn't pay too much attention to the clock, so endings are sometimes more abrupt than I like. "Your watch says it's three fifty. You're kidding me!"
This week's session was awful because we talked so much about how it seems that the only really safe support I have offline is therapy, and that will certainly be ending when I turn 18, but possibly in January. The perfect timing for my pdoc to have to tell me that for the next month we will only be meeting once every other week. I've been given explicit permission to call during the off weeks if I need to, but given his tendency to be really hard to reach on the phone, I'm not sure that helps... It's a lot easier to leave when I'm not feeling so insecure, which was the case for a short while.
Posted by just plain jane on October 24, 2004, at 15:13:32
In reply to Re: Leaving » just plain jane, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2004, at 9:15:11
Yes, Dinah,
You are very correct. There are people I trust in certain situations, to a point.
I trust any T I go to see with the information I share, and to give me constructive feedback, but I can't establish a dependency on them.
I actually did, years ago, have a T I got close to, and he tried to turn the closeness into something else. OOOOOPS, there goes that trust violation.
As for when to leave, I'm compulsive about not overstaying, even if we started late. If there's another appoontment after mine, I can't take time from them. If there's not another appointment after mine, I may stay for a bit if my T is continuing, but always try to close before she seems ready. I hate the idea of using up someone else's time.
I guess my attitudes have kept me from getting far enough along with any T who plays head games with their power, use transference for their own amusement or what ever it is they get.
I'm there for a reason. If that reason is not what's going on, there's something wrong, to me.
I guess it all boils down to my trust thing, eh?
:-0jpj
Posted by Speaker on October 24, 2004, at 23:07:39
In reply to Re: Leaving is so hard to do! » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on October 24, 2004, at 11:59:32
I have never heard of a T that you couldn't call if you needed inbetween session. I know it's suppose to be for emergencies - but pain is an emergency. I felt really bad for you when I read that...did I read it wrong?
Posted by Daisym on October 24, 2004, at 23:48:16
In reply to Re: Leaving is so hard to do!, posted by fallsfall on October 24, 2004, at 15:05:47
I guess everyone DOES struggle with this issue. But you guys didn't fix this for me!!!
Ok, I'm tired and reading this thread made me ache for my therapist, ALOT. It is hard to keep it together in front of so many people for so many days. *sigh*
I guess we will talk about leaving the next time I see him and figure out if there is anyway to make it better.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 25, 2004, at 0:05:58
In reply to Well, Gee..., posted by Daisym on October 24, 2004, at 23:48:16
I'm sorry we didn't pick up on your need for support. Leaving IS hard. For all of us. You are not alone in that. And you are not alone here.
Lean on us as much as you need.
gg
Posted by Pfinstegg on October 25, 2004, at 13:39:11
In reply to Why can't you call? » Pfinstegg, posted by Speaker on October 24, 2004, at 23:07:39
No, you read it right. I know I can call if I have an emergency, of course, but he has never said anything like, "call me if you need me". Becuse I am in analysis, and go to him five days a week now, everything has sort of "broken wide open". It has increased the pain I feel, but I know he knows that, and that I have opportunities to express it and seek his support every day. It is probably just me- I don't want to bother him in the evenings about the same stuff we are working on every morning. He's tremendously kind, understanding and empathic, so, I'm pretty sure I'd get a warm response if I did call. I guess I just feel a bit more self-sufficient and self-respecting not doing it! Maybe some of his other patients call all the time!
This is the end of the thread.
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