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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by JenStar on May 4, 2005, at 20:21:40
In reply to Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 18:36:06
I'm sure you're special to everyone in your life, Dinah, not just your T . :)
I think friendship isn't necessarily better, as long as you have good boundaries, which you def. seem to have with your T. I've never heard you express sexual/romantic feelings for him, and you seem very clear about expectations on both ends. So for you it seems that the relationship is very healthy and solid, and you like it the way it is.
It seems that some people have a much harder time setting up those kind of groundrules in their mind. I know a lot of people really seem to desire a closer relationship with the T, maybe the kind where they get to offer advice/support in kind, get and are are given affection, and share the kind of emotional bond that seems to come with friendship. Maybe it's because it's hard to "get" that someone who sees the "real us" isn't magnetically drawn to us; doesn't go crazy trying to find a way to be with us all the time. After all, if we're so great (which we're learning to feel about ourselves), why isn't the T breaking down doors to be our friend? Anyway, that's the way it would go in MY mind, I think!
I admire the kind of relationship you have with your T. I think it's really a good role-model of what the healthy client/T relationship looks like!
take care,
jenStar
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 20:32:03
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » Dinah, posted by JenStar on May 4, 2005, at 20:21:40
> Maybe it's because it's hard to "get" that someone who sees the "real us" isn't magnetically drawn to us; doesn't go crazy trying to find a way to be with us all the time. After all, if we're so great (which we're learning to feel about ourselves), why isn't the T breaking down doors to be our friend? Anyway, that's the way it would go in MY mind, I think!
Ahhhh. Ok, that I understand. I guess I assume it's because he's so darned delighted to be my therapist (wink) that he couldn't bear to leave that behind. :)
>
> I admire the kind of relationship you have with your T. I think it's really a good role-model of what the healthy client/T relationship looks like!
>
> take care,
> jenStarThanks JenStar. I've always thought it works so well precisely because I have no further desires from him. So I do understand that.
I suppose I'm a bit hampered by the fact that I'm very skilled at wanting what's possible to have, and pretty much never noticing if on the odd chance I actually want something more.
Posted by Shortelise on May 4, 2005, at 20:41:14
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ?, posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 12:22:35
Yes, Happyflower - I was talking to you. I did remember correctly that you had written about a strong sexual attraction to your T, and wondered how it would translate into friendship. I have found that mutual sexual attraction to men outside my marriage, esp. the men in couples my husband and I frequent socially, has meant Trouble.
But as you say, you've moved on. It would be great to live in a small town where seeing my T out and about, talking about the weather, watching his children grow, etc. was a part of things. I would like that, I think. But I don't think I could be friends with him, nor could my husband. But long term therapy is different. I could probably be friends or at least socialize with the woman I did art therapy with for six months.
Not so weel today so can't read what everyone else has written but will do so later.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 4, 2005, at 20:41:39
In reply to Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 18:36:06
good point, DInah
Posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 20:57:30
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ? » happyflower, posted by Shortelise on May 4, 2005, at 20:41:14
I guess I don't get away with anything here! lol There is still some attraction going on at both ends, but I truely believe they won't amount into anything. Maybe a friendship wouldn't be a good idea then. I guess I need to get out and meet some friends before I end therapy so I won't feel the loss so much.
Is short term therapy different than long term? I have only had about 12 sessions and he says I should be done in a couple of months, is that considered short term?
I guess if friendship isn't in the cards, I will be here with everyone trying to get over the loss.
Posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2005, at 21:02:43
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ? » Shortelise, posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 20:57:30
I like your easy going attitude Happyflower. I remember you having a very bad childhood. Inspite of that you have grown to be so humorous. :-)
I like it.
Pinkeye.
Posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2005, at 21:36:15
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » JenStar, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 20:32:03
It could work the other way also... Ah he knows so much about me, and he knows all the ugly details about my life, that he must truly hate me. Nobody could like me after knowing me fully. I think it depends on how you perceive yourself.
I have felt both ways many times.
> > Maybe it's because it's hard to "get" that someone who sees the "real us" isn't magnetically drawn to us; doesn't go crazy trying to find a way to be with us all the time. After all, if we're so great (which we're learning to feel about ourselves), why isn't the T breaking down doors to be our friend? Anyway, that's the way it would go in MY mind, I think!
>
> Ahhhh. Ok, that I understand. I guess I assume it's because he's so darned delighted to be my therapist (wink) that he couldn't bear to leave that behind. :)
>
> >
> > I admire the kind of relationship you have with your T. I think it's really a good role-model of what the healthy client/T relationship looks like!
> >
> > take care,
> > jenStar
>
> Thanks JenStar. I've always thought it works so well precisely because I have no further desires from him. So I do understand that.
>
> I suppose I'm a bit hampered by the fact that I'm very skilled at wanting what's possible to have, and pretty much never noticing if on the odd chance I actually want something more.
>
>
Posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 22:19:37
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2005, at 21:36:15
> It could work the other way also... Ah he knows so much about me, and he knows all the ugly details about my life, that he must truly hate me. Nobody could like me after knowing me fully. I think it depends on how you perceive yourself.
>
> >
You know we talked about this a little bit during our last session. I was talking about how shameful I felt of my family growing up. And thats one of the reasons I didn't tell anyone about my mothers abuse. Even during adulthood, most people do look at you weird if you were abused. It is like they think something must be wrong with you or something. My T asked me if I thought he thought that about me. I said no, because he was a T and wasn't supposed to think that. He said well what if I was something else. I don't know what he was getting at because I ran off on another tangent.
Posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 22:20:57
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ? » happyflower, posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2005, at 21:02:43
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 3:08:40
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 22:19:37
You ought to bring it up again. :) I suspect it's important.
Posted by happyflower on May 5, 2005, at 7:55:07
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » happyflower, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 3:08:40
> You ought to bring it up again. :) I suspect it's important.
What do you think it is all about? :)
Posted by cricket on May 5, 2005, at 14:32:23
In reply to Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 18:36:06
Is friendship supposed to be better? I was wondering the same thing.
Also, does anyone else feel like being friends with their T is the last thing that they would want. Right now just the thought of running into my T somewhere, much less with wife and kids in tow gives me horrors. Maybe that's unique to clients of long term, analytic therapy or maybe just unique to me.
Now as far as contact after termination is concerned, that's another story. I fully expect to be able to contact my T, even come in for a check up session on a periodic basis or if a crisis occurs after termination. But at this point (3 years into the process) neither one of us has even breathed a word about termination (quitting yes, but "we've completed our work together" terminating, no). In fact, most of the time he's reminding me that this process takes years.
Posted by Shortelise on May 5, 2005, at 19:47:28
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by cricket on May 5, 2005, at 14:32:23
ANother good point. No, I wouldn't want to be friends with my T. We're not friends, he's not my friend, he's my therapist, he's my psychiatrist. It's kind of like wondering if I would want my gastro-enterologist as my friend, y'know, the guy who did the big look up my bum with the good drugs and the camera? Like, hey, I really liked him, he's a jolly, kind man, my age, intelligent, but, as we're sitting there at the dinner table is he thinking, wow, she shouldn't be eating that! I know JUST what's going to happen in her colon, and it's not going to be pretty, and I sure don't want to be around in a couple of hours for the smells it's going to generate. Woof!
Being "friends" with my T, impossible! He knows every twist and turn of my psyche, or thinks he does. I wouldn't want him at my dinner table, wouldn't want him near my friends, wouldn't want him getting drunk on champagne and letting slip anything one might let slip when one has a glass to many. He can let those things slip around his own friends, keep me out of it! And I need him invulnerable, strong, and safe. For later, maybe. Friends, I have some already. I'll keep my psychiatrist for psychiatry.
There would just be too much history. Our relationship is very intimate, takes place in a small room, between four walls, and my feelings of closeness to him are based on having his attention focussed on me entirely. I don't know how that could translate into the real world. I don't think it could, it's so outside of the real world. I prefer to write to him, to keep in touch with him with a phone call, a letter, but always professionally, never personally.
It would slay me if I had a therapist who cut me off, who sent me off into the sunset, and refused to keep in touch. That is cruel, unless I go off the deep end about him, and it's the only way to help me find some equilibrium.
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 20:01:21
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by Shortelise on May 5, 2005, at 19:47:28
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 20:02:50
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by cricket on May 5, 2005, at 14:32:23
That's the way I feel too. I go to extraordinary lengths to avoid his seeing me outside the safe confines of his office.
Posted by pinkeye on May 5, 2005, at 22:25:08
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by Shortelise on May 5, 2005, at 19:47:28
Yeah, I think no contact is the horrible part. Even friendship I can sacrifice.
Posted by Shortelise on May 6, 2005, at 0:26:59
In reply to ROFL. Exactly. (nm) » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 20:01:21
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 0:31:32
In reply to innards are innards, right? (nm) » Dinah, posted by Shortelise on May 6, 2005, at 0:26:59
Posted by Tamar on May 6, 2005, at 2:26:50
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » Dinah, posted by happyflower on May 5, 2005, at 7:55:07
> > You ought to bring it up again. :) I suspect it's important.
>
> What do you think it is all about? :)If my experience is anything to go by, it's probably about transference. Not necessarily the erotic kind, but nevertheless probably transference.
And it does seem to be generally true that if things like this feel important they're good topics for discussion.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 2:46:03
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » happyflower, posted by Tamar on May 6, 2005, at 2:26:50
let us know what her therapist thinks. :)
Posted by Tamar on May 6, 2005, at 3:52:20
In reply to My guess was projection. Maybe Happyflower could, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 2:46:03
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 6:54:51
In reply to I'll defer to your greater knowledge! (nm) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on May 6, 2005, at 3:52:20
of my guess.
And I suppose I'm projecting in that guess. :)
Posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 19:54:29
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ? » pinkeye, posted by alexandra_k on May 4, 2005, at 1:35:09
Yeah, and the point of termination actually is that you're terminating a therapy relationship. Period. It seems like some therapists think that way, in any case. It doesn't matter whether the client's ready or whether they've adequately hashed anything out, the therapist's ceiling level of comfort has been reached, he is unable to further grow or expand or deal with things, and it's bye-bye sweetheart you're on your own, here's a recommendation or whatever, just get the hell out of my face ...
I'm not bitter. :-]
To the original subject question on the thread, though, I think I was not thinking clearly before. Some writers can be very persuasive, until you take personal experience into account etc.
After some re-thinking I agree that a therapist shouldn't see a client as a friend, you know, I think Yalom crossed a line and justified his actions with the fact that nothing bad happened. Great, in hindsight, if that worked for him. But Lott brings up some good arguments in her book, against that, and I think ShortE brought them up too, before. A T and an ex-client could possibly be friends after that relationship's terminated, and maybe they could terminate a therapy relationship because they want to be friends, but it shouldn't be done concurrently. No way. And I don't know too many people who'd really be comfortable being friends with an ex-client. It would have to be pretty exceptional to work.
Posted by LG04 on May 16, 2005, at 23:46:38
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ?, posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 12:22:35
Hi, I haven't been on Babble for ages. I just got on and skimmed subject headings, I'm too tired to read much right now.
I skimmed a few of these posts and want to tell you all about a book I've been reading called,
"When Boundaries Betray Us." I found it at a used bookstore and thought it would be about a therapist who was sexual with a client.Turns out, it's a book about a therapist and client who had a very strong "soul connection" and had discussed being friends after therapy. In the end, the therapist said no, and the client was devestated for a long, long time. She felt that the therapist held back b/c of the professional boundaries, and in fact "hid" behind them due to her own fears of intimacy, and in doing so, betrayed the authenticity of their relationship.
The author feels that for her, healing comes in creating authentic, soulful, mutual relationships with others. And that though therapy has its place, the "power-over" aspect of it became very constricting for her and she also feels it's a result of a patriarchal society. She couldn't take it anymore. she loved her therapist and knew her therapist felt the same, and was ready to move into a different, mutual kind of relationship where they would continue to grow and heal. but the therapist backed out.
She talks a lot about "The Stone Center," a consortium of women therapists who reseach and write about many things, including genuineness and mutuality in therapy. This is what it says on their home page:
http://www.wcwonline.org/index.html
"For more than 30 years, the Wellesley Centers for Women (WCW) has been a driving force, both behind the scenes and in the spotlight, promoting positive change for women and girls. The nation's largest women's research center, WCW is the powerful alliance of the Center for Research on Women and the Stone Center at Wellesley College."
I saw a few Stone Center books on the shelves of Borders under "feminism" or "women's studies." they are very, very interesting.
The book is very moving and at least for me very thought provoking. It might be true that for 90% - 95% of therapist/client relationships, friendship might not be the right thing. But what about the small minority where it might be, where the feelings are mutual, and to NOT pursue this route is letting go of a very important healing relationship in one's life for no reason other than society's finger wagging no-no?
(though actually, most psychological organizations' ethical statements about termination discuss the rules regarding sexual relationships following therapy, and don't mention anything about friendships).
If my therapist had stopped contact when i left the country, i would have been beyond devestated. it would have affected my ability to trust people probably for the rest of my life. she knew this and agreed to an ongoing phone therapy relationship with me even though none of her colleagues approved of it. she knew in her heart that it was the right thing, THANK GOODNESS she had the courage to follow her instincts and intimate knowledge of the situation. i can't imagine had she cut me off. the pain would have been unbearable. i've been thru enough pain in my life. G-d knows i don't need more.
we are now working thru a termination process. neither of us know what will be in the future. we are both open to a different kind of relationship. but we both believe that this one needs to be grieved and let go of first, before we can determine how each of us feels about developing a different kind of relationship. we each talk about how precious we are to one another, how it's a very special relationship, that we have a soul connection.
yet, we each agree that probably in many ways it would be easier to not pursue anything after termination. it's very difficult to change boundaries, to figure out how to do it and so many many issues that go along with it. we will each have to ask ourselves if we are willing to take the harder road, one that is filled with a lot of fears, but where the rewards could be infinite. it will mean a lot of discussion with each other about expectations and fears and risks and so on, and a tremendous amount of openness and honesty with each other. i am just now thinking that even the process of discussing it will be so growth-inducing for me no matter what the ultimate decision is.
i don't agree with one-size-fits-all rules. there are always exceptions and to ignore them is a situation where, as the books says, "boundaries betray us." the painful part is when one person wants one thing, and the other wants another.
i hope this will not happen between us. either we'll both agree not to pursue it, or we'll both want to pursue it. i have a strong sense that we will come to a decision together, that the process will reveal to us what to do.
lastly, i recently read an article about transference where it said that the POSSIBILITY for a future relationship with one's therapist is essential to letting go of the transference, b/c otherwise the therapist always remains the carrier of greater consciousness. the client will always feel that the therapist has something that the client needs (though of course it's not true). it talked about these clubs that freud and jung used to have where they'd "hang out" with their former clients, where they recognized that some kind of continuing relationship was important. (and we all know how rigid Freud was).
the article said something like, "what if the relationship itself becomes as important as the therapy? how is one motivated to get better if the person knows it will mean the end of what has become a very important and loving relationship in their life?" i think that's a very good question. this article was a very psycho-analytic oriented article, so this discussion surprised me b/c psychoanalysis is so conservative, but it made complete sense to me and resonated 100% with me and my relationship with my therapist.
i just think that, as i said, rules are meant for the majority, and they are important, but for a small minority they simply might not fit the very human and individual relationship that develops between two people. (there HAVE been successful marriages between therapist and client though it's very unusual. yet for those few couples, it works.) we must be very cautious in both directions. not to let boundaries betray us by being so rigid that the true nature of the relationship is denied, or to let the boundaries be so soft that harmful or even abusive violations occur.
that's my two cents.
okay i guess it was more like 20 cents.
but i have to say i get furious when i read about some of the situations here on this list where therapists have cut off their clients. it makes me feel so much pain inside. there has to be more flexibility in the profession, such as gradual termination or perhaps limited but continued contact until the client feels ready to make the full break. or maybe it's never a full break, maybe it's a phone call a few times a year to say hi. what is so wrong with that? aren't we human beings?and we can get to that place eventually if it's at our own pace, i fully believe that. it is happening with me and i was very dependent upon my therapist. yet i am the one who has initiated termination. i am finally ready. and once again i will say THANK GOODNESS my therapist had the courage to let it happen at my pace and not cut me off as her colleagues felt she should (and they all define themselves as feminist therapists!). and my readiness developed the more my therapist opened up and became more genuine with me about her thoughts and feelings. i asked her to start doing this so many times. i was ready. i was ready to let go of the ideal, and of the transference. she felt like she would be crossing boundaries but as she did it little by little, she saw how helpful and healing it was to me.
there's more than one way to slice a cake, or skin a rat, or whatever they say.
okay i'm off my soapbox.
just some more food for thought.
LG04
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 8:12:32
In reply to Re: Is it harmful to be friends with T ? long, posted by LG04 on May 16, 2005, at 23:46:38
My problem with that book is that it didn't seem to be a good example of its point. The client didn't come across as someone who would be better served by friendship than therapy. Her therapist certainly seemed to have made a fair share of mistakes. How many is difficult to tell because we all know how one person's account of a relationship (any relationship) isn't necessarily what an impartial observer would see. But her mistakes sounded more like not admitting she was out of her depth early enough and referring the client on.
I ended up with a clearer appreciation for the boundaries, especially as they protect the therapist.
I was sorry not to like the book better.
It sounds as if your therapist and you are going through a good process of deciding whether friendship would be appropriate and healthy for the two of you. Talking it over thoroughly, exploring the impact on both persons, making sure it is mutually desired, taking into account the potential problems, and I'm guessing a cooling off period?
Unless therapy was short term and educational or collegial in nature, friendship on the terms of a true mutual friendship would be pretty hard to establish on the foundation of a true therapy relationship. But it's got a better chance if the hardships are anticipated, rather than the whole thing rushed and improperly thought out.
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