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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
my new T got frustrated on Tuesday. I'm not saying that she was frustrated with ME; it actually seemed like she was more frustrated by her own limitations. I walked out feeling like this whole process is useless for me.
I have been having trouble sleeping at night due to racing thoughts and catastrophizing. She was trying to explain that she "allows the thoughts to pass in and then back out of her head" and when I asked HOW one learns to be able to actually implement that action, she was at a loss for words. I KNOW that I'm supposed to acknowledge and validate my thoughts and feelings and then "simply let them go", as she says. "Simply" is a very complicated word to me, apparently. I am not able to do what she asks.
The whole concept of "just do" this or that is frustrating to me because I AM intelligent. I am in therapy BECAUSE I do not know HOW to "simply let things go", although I am smart enough to know that I need to do this. And I desperately want to learn how people to do this, to "simply let things go".
Is there anyone who has been through this particular issue and been able to come out through the other side being able to do this? And, if so, do you think you could explain it to a simpleton (regarding this)like me?
I'm sure that there are many more of you who deal with this, too. I don't feel alone in this, I just want to know if it's something that actually CAN be learned... and HOW.
Otherwise, I think I'm wasting my money on therapy...
Thanks,
sunny10
Posted by pinkeye on May 26, 2005, at 15:14:33
In reply to confusion about therapy, posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
There is no way to simply let go of things. OR simply change a pattern OR simply learn to be happy.
There is no use in telling a person to learn all these. It is like asking a person why you simply cannot be a rocket scientist? With logical things, people understand that it takes time and effort and patience to become something you want - like make more money or get a career. But emotionally the answer is almost always - simply be happy, simply don't worry, simply be positive, simply don't catastrophize. IT does not work.
But the thing that does work is talk about some things or write about some things again and again and again. And to learn real coping techniques - like how to effectively distract yourself, and practice it repeatedly. Some of the CBT books are helpful. Practice distracting yourslef, practice learning to question your negative pattern of thinking, practice consciously how to view the world in a right approach.
And write here in babble - there are very good people here with lot of insights. When the same thing is said in different ways by many people, usually something strikes in our mind and we seem to be able to learn.
Posted by TamaraJ on May 26, 2005, at 15:38:18
In reply to confusion about therapy, posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
Sunny,
I am so sorry that you are struggling right now. I, personally, think your therapist should be giving you concrete techniques to help you "let the thoughts go". Of course, I don't have much experience with therapy, so I probably don't know what I am talking about LOL. Perhaps, you could try keeping a notepad and pen on the bedside table, and, when the intrusive thoughts come, write them down as a way to "deal" with them. Getting them out of your head and on to a piece of paper may prove therapeutic. I know when I take the time to write down things that I am ruminating about, it tends to put the thoughts into a different light and I can, most of the time anyway, move away from the ruminating and catastrophizing. Plus, I find that by writing it down, I can tell myself that I have got it out, so I don't need to play it over and over and over again in my head (at least not that day or night, as the case may be).
You are by no means a simpleton, Sunny, and you are by no means alone in dealing with this type of thing.
I think I would give the therapy a little more time, but make it clear what your goals are and what you hope to achieve from therapy as well as what you hope to LEARN from your therapist, which could include techniques to stop the ruminating in its tracks.
Good luck to you Sunny.
Tamara
> my new T got frustrated on Tuesday. I'm not saying that she was frustrated with ME; it actually seemed like she was more frustrated by her own limitations. I walked out feeling like this whole process is useless for me.
>
> I have been having trouble sleeping at night due to racing thoughts and catastrophizing. She was trying to explain that she "allows the thoughts to pass in and then back out of her head" and when I asked HOW one learns to be able to actually implement that action, she was at a loss for words. I KNOW that I'm supposed to acknowledge and validate my thoughts and feelings and then "simply let them go", as she says. "Simply" is a very complicated word to me, apparently. I am not able to do what she asks.
>
> The whole concept of "just do" this or that is frustrating to me because I AM intelligent. I am in therapy BECAUSE I do not know HOW to "simply let things go", although I am smart enough to know that I need to do this. And I desperately want to learn how people to do this, to "simply let things go".
>
> Is there anyone who has been through this particular issue and been able to come out through the other side being able to do this? And, if so, do you think you could explain it to a simpleton (regarding this)like me?
>
> I'm sure that there are many more of you who deal with this, too. I don't feel alone in this, I just want to know if it's something that actually CAN be learned... and HOW.
>
> Otherwise, I think I'm wasting my money on therapy...
>
> Thanks,
> sunny10
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on May 26, 2005, at 15:57:33
In reply to confusion about therapy, posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
Sunny,
I suffered from this problem long ago. I couldn't get to sleep because I had racing thoughts and worried all night. I came up with a fairly simple solution - talk radio.
As I lay in bed, I listen to talk radio. So I'm usually falling asleep to Dr. Laura. This allows me to concentrate on something else other than me and I'm basically distracting my thoughts. It works like a charm for me.
Posted by happyflower on May 26, 2005, at 16:25:42
In reply to Re: confusion about therapy, posted by Miss Honeychurch on May 26, 2005, at 15:57:33
Sometimes I go sleep on the couch and it seems to break up my running thoughts, just changing my sleeping arrangements.
Posted by pegasus on May 26, 2005, at 16:43:37
In reply to confusion about therapy, posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
What she's describing is exactly the technique of meditation taught in Buddhist and Buddist-inspired traditions. And it's no simple thing. In those traditions, they expect you to practice and practice to eventually be able to do it. I've had some training in that type of meditation, and I did find it useful for controlling some of my obsessions and ruminations. In fact, that was probably the most valuable thing I've done other than medication. I don't know where you live, but there are lots of organizations that provide instruction in that type of meditation - not necessarily Buddhist. If there is a Shambhala group in your community, they have a great series of weekend trainings that can help. And Jack Kornfield has some great CDs and tapes that teach beginning meditation.
Another thing that helped me were some mental tricks I learned from a web site that I can't remember: when you recognize undesired thinking, try assigning it a particular color, and mentally putting it away in a room. So, you might say, "Oh, that's another one of those green thoughs, I'll put it in the green room and close the door." I used to get some temporary relief that way. Also, sometimes I get relief by noticing that I'm doing the ruminating or whatever, and taking a moment to reorient myself to my acctual surroundings. I check in with each of my senses. Sometimes that stops things for a while.
Good luck to you. I remember my therapist being pretty unable to offer tips for dealing with this also, and I was pretty disappointed. I guess they don't cover this type of thing in therapist school.
pegasus
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 18:02:12
In reply to confusion about therapy, posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
You may have read that I was disruptive in the seminar my therapist was giving when I first met him. It was on this subject that I was disruptive.
He introduced a simple guided relaxation, and led people through it. The purpose was to focus just on the relaxation exercise and let other thoughts go. Afterwards he asked how it had gone, and people dutifully said that it was very helpful. But I said that it didn't work at all. That my mind was capable of keeping several threads of thought going at once. After which many other people chimed in with the same observation. Sort of a "The emperor has no clothes" moment. :) But he still told me to call him and arrange to come in and see him. lol.
I read lots and lots of self help books, giving different techniquest, and listened to tapes too.
Lots of imagery has helped me over the years. I like Linehan's imagery of watching your thoughts like leaves floating down the stream.
But eventually I think I just figured out ways of doing it myself that work for me. I can now do a reasonable job of calming my mind before sleep most times.
For me the key was practice, as Pegasus said. My therapist kept at me with part of it. But most of it I just did by trial and error.
Not very helpful I fear.
Posted by Aphrodite on May 26, 2005, at 19:52:04
In reply to confusion about therapy, posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
As Pegasus said, it's a meditation technique called "mindfulness" which is different from other forms such as transcendental. There are a lot of articles, books, tapes, etc., but it does take a lot of practice. My therapist is all about mindfulness -- it eludes someone like me, who lives in her head and thinks a lot. I always want to make things more complicated than they are. But it helps to try, and to not judge your thoughts as good or bad and to try not to be hard on yourself if you don't succeed right away. I can't imagine anyone does master it quickly -- it's very different than how our western brain works. People, like my T, who have mastered it says it makes a profound difference. It's not a quick fix, unfortunately. Maybe the two of you could try it together, let her model it for you perhaps?
Posted by Damos on May 26, 2005, at 20:55:34
In reply to confusion about therapy, posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
Hey Sunny,
There should be good examples of minfullness meditation here with detailed explanations of the practice. It's something I do a lot and find really helps. Try a few techniques until you find something that works for you. There'll be days when nothing works and other days when magic happens.
The 'letting go' is actually not becoming attached to your thoughts as they arise more than letting go. What I mean is the thoughts arise largely all on their own, the trouble starts when we latch onto one or more of them and start actually 'thinking' about it. Know what I mean. It's like a babble thread. You can see the original post, and acknowledge it but whether you become attahed to it or not is a separate thing. You can read it and let it pass without response and without thinking any more about it. Or you can start to attach to it and start really thinking about it and respond and have it on your mind all day or even for days, or worse yet this single thought that didn't even originate in you can cause your thinking to shoot off in a dozen different directions that have you off balance in all kinds of ways for days. Does that make sense?
(((((Sunny10)))))
Posted by sleepygirl on May 27, 2005, at 0:16:51
In reply to confusion about therapy, posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
Hi,
My goodness, how I relate to the rumination and racing thoughts. And yes, how frustrating, like -"Oh, you mean just stop doing that? Wow, why didn't I think of that?!" Please excuse my sarcasm, I suppose I relate to the frustration. I read some nice suggestions. I find the writing very helpful, especially when upset or thinking about what I must do, so to get out of my head and on paper is helpful. Sometimes though I've had to make a real effort to just focus on breathing to the exclusion of all else. Sometimes I'll try to visualize either blank paper or somewhere nice. I guess there's something terrifying about how out of control one can feel-hence the catastrophizing-imagining the worst so it doesn't take you by surprise. I also can't dismiss the help that the meds have given to just dampen some of the "internal noise"
Posted by sunny10 on May 27, 2005, at 8:54:06
In reply to Re: confusion about therapy, posted by sleepygirl on May 27, 2005, at 0:16:51
I guess what I should be asking is if I should put therapy back up on the shelf and go somewhere else to "quiet my mind" first.
For instance, should I call the T, cancel my appt for Tuesday, and go start with practicing the writing, the mindfulness meditations, et cetera and learn how to SLEEP before I start up the therapy?
The reason I'm asking this is because I find myself so anxious because I can't do this "fisrt thing" (as she says), so the rest of the talk during the session is lost amid the feelings of inadequacy anyway.
Mainly because she is right when she says that the anxiety will just continue to build if my mind and body are too tired to fight it. She's right because my anxiety makes me feel as if I'll never be able to do anything right for the rest of my life; including therapy.
With my insurance, I only get a set number of appointments per year (at co-pay only). So it leads me to wonder if maybe I shouldn't be "wasting them" if I'm not getting anything out of them other than more frustration.
Does that sound logical or like isolating? Sometimes I get lost in the meanings- yes, now I am ruminating over therapy!!! Aaaack...
I don't trust myself anymore to make the right choices...
-sunny10
Posted by antigua on May 27, 2005, at 9:13:47
In reply to Re: SO..., posted by sunny10 on May 27, 2005, at 8:54:06
I'd suggest that you try to be more patient with your therapy. You just started, right? People have suggested some fine ways to deal with the obsessive thoughts (I like the color idea, I'm going to try it), but please remember that therapy is not a cut and paste project. You can't push it to work (at least I can't) and it takes time to learn to trust before you can deal with your issues. Do you feel comfortable with this person? If so, maybe you could just take it slower.
antigua
Posted by sunny10 on May 27, 2005, at 10:56:30
In reply to Re: SO... » sunny10, posted by antigua on May 27, 2005, at 9:13:47
slow is a concept I personally relish- I think if someone had offered me slow therapy instead of "hurry up real quick and learn these coping skills" about 20 years ago, (or again 13 years ago, or again 6 years ago) I would be done with therapy by now...
It's the concept of running out of insured visits while I am too anxious to learn anything that paralyzes me...
I have suffered from MDD since I was a kid. I am now poor from way too many overreactive, depressed, decisions I have made in my whole 37 years...
I can't AFFORD to do it after the insurance runs out...
Posted by sleepygirl on May 27, 2005, at 12:18:13
In reply to Re: SO..., posted by sunny10 on May 27, 2005, at 8:54:06
I wonder, and I don't know, if you might address those feelings of inadequacy about you're inability to let go, it sounds like you're trying desperately to keep up, like running after the train as it leaves the station, and it sounds terribly frustrating. I think you should keep going and put it all out there, the frustration, the urgency. I think this is a process, and unfortunately you can't check these things off as you go, focus on the feelings, and don't beat yourself up. If you could've "figured out" how to stop the anxiety you probably would've done it a long time ago.
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2005, at 13:39:32
In reply to confusion about therapy, posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
I used to feel something similar when I talked to my T about triggers and he said something about reminding myself that those feelings belong to the past. My first thought was, ‘Easy for you to say. But how exactly am I meant to do that?’
Other people have mentioned practice: I’d agree wholeheartedly. I find having some kind of a mantra helps a bit. If I lie awake worrying about stuff, I say (sometimes out loud): “I don’t need to think about this now. I can worry about it in the morning. Right now I’m going to think about soccer.” Or whatever. And I try very hard to believe myself. And I try to remember who won the Latvian soccer league in 1953. Well, actually, I don’t often think about soccer, but anything will do. I find trying to do number puzzles also helps. What’s 2 to the power of 13? Can I work it out? Zzzzz…
Also, I keep a notebook next to my bed and I sometimes write things in it to think about in the morning. I feel I don’t need to hold all the worries in my head if I can list them briefly for future consideration.
But I definitely find practice helps. And maybe it would be an idea to continue to go to therapy and talk about how your practice is going.
All this might not be much use to you, but I hope some of it helps. And here are some hugs for good measure:
(((((Sunny)))))
I hope you start to find solutions soon.
Posted by Jazzed on May 27, 2005, at 15:36:40
In reply to confusion about therapy, posted by sunny10 on May 26, 2005, at 15:05:10
I would tell her exactly what you said, "I'm in therapy because I don't know HOW to let things go." I couldn't have said it better. You also might explain that you need concrete example of HOW to implement her strategies.
Jazzed
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