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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on January 9, 2007, at 22:49:08
I'm refusing to help myself. I don't take any of the suggestions my therapist offers that are designed to help ease the loneliness and frustration between sessions. Instead I'm angry with him for "leaving" me alone with all of this. He said I'm protesting because it just isn't enough, I want him for real right now. Am I? I'm not usually so obvious in my self-sabotage.
We've been talking off and on, about my frustration with therapy and about how disconnected I am from everything. And then I turn around and cry for whole sessions about how much I need him and everything hurts. I push him away and then reach out in desperation. He said it is OK to be angry at him, but I don't want to be. He doesn't deserve my anger. I told him I *think* the anger is really jealousy or it is loneliness and despair dressed up in anger's costume. Sometimes I'm angry at him because he can't change what happened to me -- he can't really rescue me. I told him today that knowing and feeling his caring makes it a 1000 times worse when I'm alone. And then I told him I didn't feel his support anymore.
He said I'm abandoning him before he can hurt me or leave me. Is that really it? Have I no trust in him after all this time that he won't do that to me?
I feel horrible. Someone tell me what is going on here.
Posted by muffled on January 10, 2007, at 1:04:47
In reply to Being Angry, posted by Daisym on January 9, 2007, at 22:49:08
I dunno Daisy :(
Mebbe you need a bit of a break?
I dunno.
((Daisy))
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by annierose on January 10, 2007, at 6:46:37
In reply to Being Angry, posted by Daisym on January 9, 2007, at 22:49:08
i'll write more thoughts later - just dashing around this morning -
but it strikes me as true. do you remember what i wrote a few weeks back - around new years? sometimes we set up for ourselves exactly what we fear? if i push you away first, our brains tell us, then you can't hurt me. of course, it's not true.
i don't think there is any comfort in knowing these feelings that are popping up are a memory. your t is a rock. he is who your more trusting side knows to be true. he is not going to leave you. but those memories cloud your judgment and your little daisy is scared and pushes him away. he won't. you keep reacting to your t as if he is someone else - someone from your past that hurt you.
of course, i could be totally off base here.
but i'm sorry it's so darn hard. it is.
(((((((daisy)))))))))
Posted by gardenergirl on January 10, 2007, at 10:28:28
In reply to Re: Being Angry » Daisym, posted by annierose on January 10, 2007, at 6:46:37
I agree, I do think there's something there about pushing him away. I recently heard the same thing from my T when I was telling him that he wasn't hearing me and understanding what I was saying, and that he was jumping in and talking a lot instead of listening patiently. I was sure that he was not "on" as usual for some reason, and I wondered if it might be related to termination from his end. I'm still not entirely convinced that he wasn't contributing to it in part. But he suggested that I might be viewing him as less competent and feeling angry with him in order to make it easier to terminate. (Still heading in that direction, but no date set yet after the first false alarm...).
I think it makes sense that we could do this unconsciously, because it does make it "easier" in some ways. And it's what we know a lot, too. It doesn't mean we are doing something "bad" or "wrong" or any other negative adjective. It just means we're being. It is what it is, and we most likely come by it honestly.
Still, I know it's confusing and draining. And if it's not this going on, whatever is sounds like it's still confusing, upsetting, and draining.
Hang in there.
gg
Posted by Daisym on January 10, 2007, at 19:53:43
In reply to Re: Being Angry, posted by gardenergirl on January 10, 2007, at 10:28:28
Today's session was pretty brutal because he kept us focused on this single issue. After lots of "stuff" I finally said: "Of course I'm holding you at arms length. I keep waiting for you to tell me, "you don't really need me, you already know how to take care of yourself." OR "I can't take how much you need me so you need to find someone else to help you. If they can. Which I doubt."
He was quiet a minute or two and then said, "sounds like your mom (the first one) or your dad who abandoned you." How do you really think *I* would respond?
How sad is it that all these abandonment issues are still here? And then we talked about how hard am I working to be the perfect therapy patient. He said, "no wonder you are angry and don't want to come. How hard is it to be perfect all the time?" And of course my response was, "you don't think I am?" Geez, this stuff is so hard.
He ended up understanding that it is really hard for me to hold him in my mind and that I want him to hold me in his. He said, "you are searching and searching for me, and can't find me inside yourself. No wonder you are mad at me. You think I'm hiding on purpose. I'm not."
So it is everything you all mentioned. Problem is, we never quite worked out how to get out of this fear. Talking about it, taking a risk to say whatever I want and not worry about his reaction to it (yeah, right) - he says those things will help the fear receed.
This is so painful. I need camp comfort in a big way.
Posted by ClearSkies on January 10, 2007, at 20:02:57
In reply to Re: Being Angry, posted by Daisym on January 10, 2007, at 19:53:43
>
> This is so painful. I need camp comfort in a big way.There are wood fires, snuggly quilts, mugs of cocoa to hold and inhale, and fuzzy slippers.
What else would you like, Daisy?
I have a lovely (if moody) kitty cat who loves to make Happy Feet on your belly if you want. If you look at her sideways, she'll leave. It's a win-win situation.The camp property is open for business.
CS
Posted by annierose on January 10, 2007, at 22:19:00
In reply to Re: Being Angry, posted by Daisym on January 10, 2007, at 19:53:43
the answer s*cks of course and it's one you know all too well. you have to keep working with those feelings again and again.
it's always odd when we are working on the same stuff in our therapy - but with our own agendas and pathways. my t explained yesterday, "you need to start seeing me sitting here and not your mother criticizing you. i'm not her and i certainly don't think like her."
in general, humans paste past experiences on the present ones because those neutral foundations were built on faulty information (i.e. our dysfunctional parents). instead of experience your t's warmth (which sneaks in now and then just to confuse you), you experience rejection.
it's so darn hard. but you are doing it. you are talking about it. and you'll get to talk about it again tomorrow.
(((((((dasiy))))))))))
what is your favorite thing to do at camp comfort? right now sleep would be at the stop of my list followed by staying in my pj's all day doing completely nothing!
Posted by finelinebob on January 11, 2007, at 0:40:55
In reply to Being Angry, posted by Daisym on January 9, 2007, at 22:49:08
> He said I'm abandoning him before he can hurt me or leave me. Is that really it? Have I no trust in him after all this time that he won't do that to me?
>
> I feel horrible. Someone tell me what is going on here.It might not be nice for me to say so but, Daisy, you're making me laugh at myself.
My first year of "therapy" with my T, back when we started in maybe 1996, I'd talk about how I had this "teflon" personality -- how people just didn't "stick" to me, good or bad. I was alone, but I was self-sufficient. Sticks and stones? Fuggedabowdit! Advice? Walk a mile in my shoes THEN take your own advice.
And then, after about a year, I had the audacity to tell her that this "teflon" surface even applied to her. I will never forget the look of hurt on her face. And, seeing that look, I will never forget how much pain I had to cause to break through that lie.
Once we got past that moment, THAT is when my real therapy began with her.
I grew up abandoned in a family of as many as 9 but mostly, after 3 moved out and 1 died young, a family of 5. Knowing how it feels to be abandoned ... and since I lived with the abandoners that meant being abandoned every day ... yeah, I learned to bail before anyone had a chance to do it to me.
I know me, not you, and I know that what your T said to you rings oh so true for me. But that's me.
When I "abandoned" my T all those years ago and saw the pain I caused -- I recognized it so quickly, so easily, because I'd been there so long so often -- I felt sick. Not just because I hurt her, because she believed we had built a significant level of trust. I felt sick mostly because the lie was laid bare, and I saw how I rejected the trust I felt for her. And that hurt, too.
My T's a big girl, tho, so after the initial shock she got back into her appointed role ... and as I know her now, I know she dealt with the hurt later on, psychologist persona turned off, however she deals with those things. And at our next session she started teaching me how to accept trust without the fear of losing it.
Not that I don't still need practice, but my eyes are open when it comes to this.
flb
Posted by Daisym on January 11, 2007, at 1:31:16
In reply to Re: Being Angry, posted by annierose on January 10, 2007, at 22:19:00
At camp comfort I need music (Vince Gill, or Streisand, please) and cream of wheat. And friends. And a Kitty too, yes please. I have mine on my bed right now.
Tonight group was hard. But I was only half there. I've had a very rough two days with a work crisis and I had more bad news just before I left. Last night I had a late phone call from our Attorney and ended up crying afterward in the kitchen. My son gave me a hug and said he hates seeing me like this. God, I felt like such a bad mom. Because of all the anger/trust discussions, I haven't had time to share any of this with my therapist.
After group I stayed and talked with the group therapist. I fell apart - sobbing that I couldn't take anymore, that I just want to die on my birthday - which is Monday -- because at 45 you shouldn't be in such sad shape. And the worst part is that I don't know how to tell my therapist that I feel this bad and this suicidal. She offered to call him for me and I didn't want her to. Can you imagine how he would feel? She wanted to know why I hadn't told him and I could honestly say that I didn't really realize how awful I was feeling until tonight but also things were already so hard, how can I just announce that I'm feeling suicidal again? I asked her if he would think it was manipulative. She said probably not, that looking at everything I've got going on, she thinks it is actually an understandable response. But she said even if it was some kind of unconscious manipulation, we need to pay attention because it was choosing an awfully big thing to get attention with. That made me wince. And she was really good about listening to my fears that this would be the thing that makes him leave, another crisis, over another long weekend. She reminded me that he has a "pretty damn good track record."
In the end, I promised to tell him all of this tomorrow. She said if I felt I couldn't, she really did need to call him herself. So I'll try to get the words out tomorrow without minimizing. Thanks for all your support here too.
Posted by Poet on January 11, 2007, at 10:55:23
In reply to Tonight - trigger (suicide), posted by Daisym on January 11, 2007, at 1:31:16
Hi Daisy,
I hope you can get the words out. I don't think your T will believe that your feeling suicidal is being manipulative. If he's like mine, he'll think you're just being Daisy, like mine thinks I'm just being sad useless feeling Poet (again and again and...)
I'm sorry you're feeling so low. I understand about birthdays and feeling that you should be better off. I turn 50 this year and all I can see are the decades of failure, but I'll save that for my poor therapist to hear (again.)
I'll loan you my best lap cat for camp comfort. She fetches wine corks so you can play with her when she gets restless.
(((((Daisy)))))
Poet
Posted by muffled on January 11, 2007, at 15:34:41
In reply to Tonight - trigger (suicide), posted by Daisym on January 11, 2007, at 1:31:16
Hope your T appt goes OK for you.
Sometimes T appt do, sometimes they don't, and I just don't know why myself. I bet my T don't know either.
Your in a hole Daisy, and with all the crap going on it feels like your going deeper, and maybe you are. But that doesn't mean you can't get out.
Its hard, the hole is hard, cuz you can't see the way out, but there is a way. And the way may be hard, really hard at times, but you can make it. You have made it thru so much. And the higher you get out of the hole, the brighter it gets. It gets easier to see. And then there's a hint of exitement, moments of thinking its really gonna be OK. And then you start peeking out and OMG it can be SO amazing. All this cool stuff you just COULD NOT SEE. It was there, but you couldn't see it. Moments where you just sit and stare in dumbfounded WONDER at the amazingness of something. And while having been in the hole is a nightmare noone would ever choose, it does have its gifts. We who have been to hell can squeeze SO much beauty and wonder and appreciation out of a single moment......I dunno if ANYthing is worth having been to hell, but its a good good gift. One that those who have never been to hell will never EVER get. Its a gift JUST for us who have survived.
So hold on Daisy, let others help where they can. Let big Daisy comfort little Daisy. If your T can help, let him. If group can help, keep trying. Babble to us. You are special to us here Daisy too.
Your doing so good, working so hard.
If your little Daisy wants to talk to my ikid, shes actually a pretty cool kid, she could babblemail her(her name is IKid. Or little Daisy could talk to the mommy me. Or you can talk to me, etc.(LOL! One good thing bout being split, lotsa people to talk to?!?!)
Hang on Daisy, this is a hard time, but you will learn and grow, and better times are ahead.
I'm babbling, sorry, I just would like to make you feel even a teensy bit better somehow.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by annierose on January 11, 2007, at 17:46:55
In reply to Tonight - trigger (suicide), posted by Daisym on January 11, 2007, at 1:31:16
I'm glad you were able to share your sadness with your group director. It shows how much your trust in her has grown since you first met her.I hope you let the words come out with your T. I know how hard that is when they feel frozen and stuck inside.
It doesn't help you in the "now" but know that like before, these really intense times do pass. And when real life is also stressed to the MAX it makes even breathing in and out difficult.
I am so sorry that things are so hard right now. Is there something that you can do for yourself, like listening to your favorite CD that can help relax you?
My heart is thinking of you.
Posted by mair on January 11, 2007, at 22:10:51
In reply to Tonight - trigger (suicide), posted by Daisym on January 11, 2007, at 1:31:16
Oh Daisy - I wish I could reach across the great divide to hug you and somehow get you to see that things will be better. I think I've been where you are. It's always seemed strange to me that there are times when the worse I feel, the less I want to see my T, or at least the less I want to talk to her. I think some of that is shame - shame that I'm so bad at therapy after so many years; shame about feelings that seem so juvenile to me; shame about feeling suicidal when there are so many people so worse off - I think the list could go on for awhile. But beyond the shame is also the fear that my T just won't want to deal with me anymore, or worse still, that she'll decide that terminating me is in my own best interest because she's not helping me enough. And, like you, I've worried that my feelings of need are just manipulative.
All I can say is that ultimately, I end up telling my T all of these things and while there is little that I can take in sometimes, I generally end up feeling better for having been honest with her. We've been around this bend enough times, she and I, that I'm no longer afraid that she's going to try to lure me into a hospital if I tell her what I'm really thinking, and she has gained enough trust in me to feel pretty safe that I'm not going to impulsively hurt myself without contacting her.
You have so much on your plate it's no small wonder you're feeling overwelmed - and what's worse than feeling so overwelmed and so inadequate and not feeling that you can really lean on your T?
What helps me some (and I recognize that it can feel like nothing will help) is almost anything that will lure me out of my own head. Great diversions frequently don't do the trick as well as innocent encounters - like the unsolicited hug you got from your son, or just being physically close to someone without necessarily talking, or for that matter, losing yourself in some stupid TV show or movie so you can forget for a few moments why you're so miserable.
And when all else fails, try to hold onto the memory that there have been times when you've felt even worse than you do now, and you've gotten through them. For me suicidal feelings are like waves - they come at me in continuous waves and I just have to ride them out.
Please keep talking here.
mair
Posted by All Done on January 12, 2007, at 5:07:14
In reply to Tonight - trigger (suicide), posted by Daisym on January 11, 2007, at 1:31:16
How did it go with your T, (((((Daisy)))))? Were you able to tell him a little more about how you're feeling?
I'm thinking about you and I hope you're okay.
Love,
Laurie
Posted by Dinah on January 12, 2007, at 11:39:12
In reply to Tonight - trigger (suicide), posted by Daisym on January 11, 2007, at 1:31:16
I wish I knew something helpful to say, but I don't, because my feelings are pretty close to yours.
I can't imagine a lifetime of living life the way I'm living it now, constantly under stress and anxious from work. I *know* the answer is to make changes in my life, but I get stuck doing that.
Your work is inordinately stressful right now. Is there any way to relieve some of that stress? Even things that seem extreme (workwise). I know the people who care about me don't care about my job nearly as much as they care about having me around.
Said the person who hasn't the guts to take her own advice.
Posted by rubenstein on January 13, 2007, at 19:48:05
In reply to Tonight - trigger (suicide), posted by Daisym on January 11, 2007, at 1:31:16
Daisy
I feel for you, things have been crashing in on me too. I don't know what to do. Maybe we can stay strong together, but damn is it hard.
rubenstein
Posted by sunnydays on January 13, 2007, at 21:08:47
In reply to Re: Being Angry, posted by Daisym on January 10, 2007, at 19:53:43
((((((((((Daisy))))))))
I haven't finished reading the thread yet, and I'm sorry for being late to the thread, but your post was so moving I had to respond. It sounds like what I go through a lot, and your T's responses sounded a lot like mine. And I want to be perfect in therapy too. And it is so so hard.
sunnydays
Posted by Honore on January 13, 2007, at 22:27:59
In reply to Tonight - trigger (suicide), posted by Daisym on January 11, 2007, at 1:31:16
I guess there's no way to get through moments of doubt and hopelessness, other than to know that they will end. You will feel better.
Maybe that doesn't feel like enough, because the moment is too real, too thick, to see through or feel through and you've been there too many times before. But even the exhaustion and anger at life for being so hard won't last forever, and you'll feel hopeful and really alive again.
I don't know. I wish I could offer some better insight, but I often feel so tired of the whole thing, and trapped inside a lost and limited existence.
Sometimes I think that things will get better, and that it's worth the struggle; sometimes I don't.
But I'm sure your T won't reject you, or feel that you're too much for him. Even if the loss of faith seems like the only reality, you will find him eventually. I know my saying that probably doesn't help much, but I really do believe that.
Honore
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