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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Susan47 on June 14, 2005, at 23:45:32
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by Aastra on June 14, 2005, at 20:47:11
It sounds bad, it really does. Therapists.. I think they're different than a lot of other people, just because of what they do I suspect they're vulnerable. I mean, they're alone, working on a one=to-one basis.. I think it's a crazy way to live, really. I suspect some are empathetic people to begin with, and just from what happens to me when I'm with people for long periods of time on a one-to-one, I suspect they start to identify or something.
I don't know, I think if I were you I'd bring this up really frankly with him, really soon, but it's incredibly hard to tell someone you have these thoughts about them, because it just seems like you must be some ego-driven maniac he can just laugh out of the room, if you ever suspected he liked you for yourself, that he saw this lovely person he really liked. I mean, that just seems ridiculous, to feel that way. I don't know. I really empathize. I hated feeling that way about myself, I ended up resenting the hell out of my therapist, blaming him for my feelings of inadequacy. Seeing him made it worse, and worse, and worse. I lost confidence, in the end.. and the only way I gained it back was by playing my little games of pretend.. you know, I pretended stuff I'd be ashamed to admit to.
Posted by Tamar on June 15, 2005, at 4:59:00
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by Aastra on June 14, 2005, at 20:47:11
> I am so confused about therapy and what is right and wrong. I have been in psychotherapy for aprox. 2 years. My therapist is and has been very nice since the beginning.
>
> But over the 2 years my therapist has disclosed there personal life. I know the names of my therapist's children, spouse & dog. City my therapist lives in and other likes and dislikes and different situations, mostly that fit what we're talking about. My therapist told me from the beginning that my therapist has very good boundaries. I have been through much abuse and I'm trying to work through that with my therapist.Some therapists disclose more than others. Some of them might tell you the names of their partners and children; others won’t. If most of the information is relevant to what you’re talking about, it sounds acceptable. Serious problems arise when therapists tell clients things that have nothing to do with the client’s therapy (like if he told you his wife didn’t understand him or something like that).
On the other hand, it can be confusing to feel that your therapist’s boundaries are not precisely in the same place as other people’s therapists – it can make you wonder if he’s doing it right, and whether you’re at risk. If it’s making you feel uncomfortable I think it’s best to say that you feel uneasy when he tells you things about his life, or what he likes and dislikes.
> I get confused on how he feels about me. He has experienced counter-transference in a session with me. Sometimes I will say something and then I retract it because I'm not sure and he will say "I love when you do that."
I find this the most problematic of all the things you mention. The word ‘love’ is a particularly difficult one in therapy. It has so many possible meanings. I don’t think the word ‘love’ should leave his lips unless it’s very clear what he means by it. Perhaps he’s encouraging you to feel loved and trusted in the therapeutic relationship – but in what way? I hope he means to imply the simple platonic love that one person can feel for any other person. But that’s not necessarily how you’re hearing it. He should have explained what he meant.
> Then he will go on to mimic what I just did. He also tells me when laughing "You're so funny, you really are." I'm not sure how to take all this. I'm just feeling so confused! Can someone help or shed some light. Should I be worried or is this normal?
I think you are right to be a little worried, because there are things going on in your relationship with your therapist that you don’t understand. It may be perfectly innocent, but if you’re not sure what to make of some of his comments, then naturally you’re worried about it.
I’m aware that you haven’t said how you feel about him. And maybe you aren’t ready to talk about that, either here or with your therapist. But I think it would be a good thing to begin to talk to him about your relationship, even if you don’t want to talk about your feelings. You could begin, perhaps, by asking him to explain to you how he maintains his boundaries. If he asks you why you want to know, you can tell him you find it confusing. His answers should put your mind at rest, but if not then you are right to be worried.
Most therapists do not exploit their clients. But a very small percentage do. If you ever feel that you are at risk, trust your instincts.
Tamar
Posted by Bailey777 on August 21, 2005, at 11:02:42
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » Aastra, posted by Tamar on June 15, 2005, at 4:59:00
I just started therapy for the first time and have been in it for two years now. I feel at this point that I am having transference with her, but I don't know if this is helping or hindering me with my issues. Do I tell her that I feel "attracted" to her? I find myself thinking about her a lot (all the time). It also difficult because I am gay and I recentely saw her at a lesbian event, so now I know she is (I assumed she was but she appears "straight" - most people would not know, but I got gaydar on her). So, I'm wondering if knowing that is making me think about her more sexually now. I find myself holding back in therapy and wondering if I should leave. Any thoughts would be appericated.
Posted by Tamar on August 21, 2005, at 14:49:06
In reply to Re: Do you tell your T about transference?, posted by Bailey777 on August 21, 2005, at 11:02:42
> I just started therapy for the first time and have been in it for two years now. I feel at this point that I am having transference with her, but I don't know if this is helping or hindering me with my issues. Do I tell her that I feel "attracted" to her? I find myself thinking about her a lot (all the time). It also difficult because I am gay and I recentely saw her at a lesbian event, so now I know she is (I assumed she was but she appears "straight" - most people would not know, but I got gaydar on her). So, I'm wondering if knowing that is making me think about her more sexually now. I find myself holding back in therapy and wondering if I should leave. Any thoughts would be appericated.
Hi Bailey, and welcome to Babble!
Well, I usually think it’s best to tell. I think most therapists handle it sensitively and gently. Having said that, there are a few who don’t handle it as well as they ought to, so you should trust your judgement. But if you’ve been in therapy for two years with this therapist, maybe you have come to trust her enough to tell her?
I’m amazed that your gaydar works in therapy! I can’t imagine my gaydar being any use in a therapeutic setting! I can imagine that seeing your therapist at a lesbian event would make you think about her sexually, and it’s perfectly natural to experience erotic transference. From what I’ve heard, many people decide to quit therapy rather than tell their therapist, but I think that probably makes everything harder rather than easier. I didn’t tell my therapist (I kept going for months) and now I wish I had told, because now I’m sure he would have handled it well. I finished therapy five months ago, because I was no longer depressed, and now I very much regret never having told him how I felt about him.
So it’s just my two cents, but I reckon that if you tell her it will be quite a relief.
Tamar
Posted by Bailey777 on August 22, 2005, at 21:13:48
In reply to Re: Do you tell your T about transference? » Bailey777, posted by Tamar on August 21, 2005, at 14:49:06
> Hi Bailey, and welcome to Babble!
>
> Well, I usually think it’s best to tell. I think most therapists handle it sensitively and gently. Having said that, there are a few who don’t handle it as well as they ought to, so you should trust your judgement. But if you’ve been in therapy for two years with this therapist, maybe you have come to trust her enough to tell her?
>
> I’m amazed that your gaydar works in therapy! I can’t imagine my gaydar being any use in a therapeutic setting! I can imagine that seeing your therapist at a lesbian event would make you think about her sexually, and it’s perfectly natural to experience erotic transference. From what I’ve heard, many people decide to quit therapy rather than tell their therapist, but I think that probably makes everything harder rather than easier. I didn’t tell my therapist (I kept going for months) and now I wish I had told, because now I’m sure he would have handled it well. I finished therapy five months ago, because I was no longer depressed, and now I very much regret never having told him how I felt about him.
>
> So it’s just my two cents, but I reckon that if you tell her it will be quite a relief.
>
> Tamar
>
>
Hi Tamar --Thank you for your response. You bring up a very good issue and that is the one of trust. After reading your post, I thought that this may not about having transfer issues but my inability to trust someone and disclose my feelings and thoughts (and you have guessed it that I do have trust issues, anxiety, depression, fear of judgement, etc), so in some ways it makes sense that I am actually holding back because of those issues, not because I find her attractive. I've set a lot of boundaries in therapy, which she does respect, but I think I may be finally at the point where I can express myself without fear. And maybe that for me is the scary part. Thanks for letting me think about this in a new perspective.
Posted by bird in the sky on December 17, 2005, at 1:24:19
In reply to Re: I did the Hoffman process » marshak, posted by HazelMae on November 17, 2004, at 8:17:24
> Hello Marshak,
> I am interested in the Hoffman Process but have some very serious misgivings. You indicated a willingness to speak more about your experience with it, and I was hoping you could help me see the possible shortcomings of the process. There seem to be a lot of people willing to talk about the benefits of the program.
> Thanks.
Hello, i was just browsing dr bob and found this old post about the Fisher-Hoffman process. I took it from the group that was an off shoot from Bob Hoffman and is called the Institute for Personal Change
http://www.theprocessworks.org, 650-737-1368I did it in the early 80's and it definitely changed my life. I don't think i was able to really love with all my unresolved anger to my Mother and Father.
When i did it it was a 12 week process and i probably spent about 40 hrs a week on it. Alot of the time was in private, writing, "praying" to remember memories, and acting out anger.
I think it is a *sin* if anyone tries to talk anyone out of going to the Process. That's my opinion.
bird
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 19, 2005, at 11:03:24
In reply to Re: I did the Hoffman process, posted by bird in the sky on December 17, 2005, at 1:24:19
> I think it is a *sin* if anyone tries to talk anyone out of going to the Process. That's my opinion.
You're entitled to have your opinion, but please don't post it here if it could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by jennifer s on November 24, 2006, at 14:28:33
In reply to Love with therapist « Stamper, posted by Dr. Bob on November 6, 2002, at 7:52:52
i don't know what to do about this, but i just love that man. originally i saw him 2-3 times for grief counsel for myself and son. my husband died last year. i quit seeing him,but now i started back in october and fell hard. i left him a letter telling this, then he called my bluff and i had to go into his office and tell him i was mistaken and could't come back. only i don't feel mistaken, i meant it and i don't know what to do. if i had one wish it would be that none of this happened, widow at 41 and crazy in love with kurt
Posted by bird in the sky on November 25, 2006, at 20:43:25
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by jennifer s on November 24, 2006, at 14:28:33
Hi Jennifer
i won't claim to know how you feel, cause i can't imagine having both the grief for lost husband and this strong love (for T) at the same time. It seems like so musch for you...
I am deeply in love with my T and it feels so sad yet so delicious at the same time. It has gotten better over the last year, cause i don't think about him all the time just a few times a day or so. I think it gets better as one gets better in therapy. I don't feel my love has diminished, it just doesn't affect me quite as much and i pretty much accept the fact that there won't be any physical or outside contact between us. This has taken me around 2 years. I think it was good i fell in love with him and maybe it would be good for you too, if you go back to him and just talk to him about everything. It's really very nice, as long as you can stand a little more pain...
Posted by jennifer s on November 26, 2006, at 12:18:11
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » jennifer s, posted by bird in the sky on November 25, 2006, at 20:43:25
i can't go back. its too hard and too confusing. i don't think i could even sit in the same room with him right now.
Posted by bird in the sky on November 26, 2006, at 19:53:50
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by jennifer s on November 26, 2006, at 12:18:11
> i can't go back. its too hard and too confusing. i don't think i could even sit in the same room with him right now.
(((J))),
I wish someone beside me could tell you how normal and common this is - to fall in love w/ your therapist.
Now since you are fighting it, it seems like it may grow and be more painful. To me, facing it and having the chance to talk about it, *helps*. It sure did me.
I don't know if my case is different, and of course yours is a lot more delicate, since you recently lost your husband. In my case, it is kind of a recurring thing. I have always fallen in love with men in authority. Like maybe every few years.
This is so neat to be able to be with him (my therapist) and talk to him without the risk of being unfaithful to my husband. It's like a real relationship, cause we are talking and sharing so much and i can absolutely trust him.
It helps me if i masturbate before i go to see him though, so i'm not all nervous and horny. That way i can concentrate more and i don't act funny.
I understand that it helps therapy for the patient to fall in love with the T, and i believe it. I have to think about why and write that later...
Are you seeing someone else?
bird
Posted by jennifer s on November 26, 2006, at 20:56:44
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by bird in the sky on November 26, 2006, at 19:53:50
negative
Posted by widget on February 2, 2007, at 8:03:11
In reply to Re: Love with therapist « Stamper, posted by judy1 on November 9, 2002, at 18:50:39
Please tell me why it is so incredibly harmful for a patient to have a romantic/sexual relationship with a therapist? I do not understand when it feel so right.
Posted by Pippa on February 2, 2007, at 8:20:02
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by widget on February 2, 2007, at 8:03:11
Hi - I have been in a relationship with my therapist now for 5 months - he loves me and I love him. Its much more than sex (although the physical side is fantastic) We are in each others minds all day and night. I have told my kids and my husband. Sadly my therapist has yet to disclose our love to his family. Timing he says is everything. I am sure that his love and tenderness have saved me from myself. Pippa
Posted by widget on February 2, 2007, at 11:05:18
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by bird in the sky on November 26, 2006, at 19:53:50
Thanks for the reply, Pippa. How does your husband and family feel about this? How do you think it will be resolved? Do you love both men? I think it is possible to love two men.
Posted by caraher on February 2, 2007, at 11:09:41
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by widget on February 2, 2007, at 11:05:18
Welcome widget and pippa!
Please see this thread: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20070119/msgs/727426.html
I fear that what "feels right" now won't feel so good in the long run.
Posted by widget on February 2, 2007, at 11:41:04
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by caraher on February 2, 2007, at 11:09:41
To Caraher, thanks for the comment but can you explain why you say this would turn out badly? Isn't love just love?
Posted by caraher on February 2, 2007, at 14:13:57
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by widget on February 2, 2007, at 11:41:04
> To Caraher, thanks for the comment but can you explain why you say this would turn out badly? Isn't love just love?
It's possible for it to turn out OK. But it's less likely to truly work out when you have two people entering a relationship from such different perspectives. I teach college students, and ethically (even were I not married) it's not a good idea to date a student because I'm in a position of authority. Maybe after a class is over... but definitely not during!
It's even more serious in therapy, because the way many therapies work, as therapy, the patient develops strong feelings for the therapist. If a therapist has multiple clients... well, I hope you can see the conflicts that can arise! Therapy is supposed to be a professional relationship despite its personal dimensions.
If a therapist really wants to have an intimate, non-professional relationship with you, the therapist needs, at a minimum, to stop providing your therapy.
Love is love. But mere attachment can feel like love. And worse, exploitation can also feel like love. Professional boundaries exist to prevent a mistaken feeling from harming a patient.
Posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 19:56:17
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by Pippa on February 2, 2007, at 8:20:02
Hi Pippa, I'm totally not judging here. I just have a few questions I was hoping you could give your opinion on (if you didn't feel weird about answering). Do you still have sessions with him, or did that stop once the sexual relationship started? And if you do, do you still do traditional therapy work? Is it possible?
Also, were you already estranged from your husband, or if not, was he angry or interested in filing a complaint against your T once you told him?
I too sometimes feel like my T's affection is saving me from something infinitely worse. That all alone, I wouldn't have lasted this long. I'm particularily interested in others perspectives on if the "therapy" has any real therapeutic benefits once the relationship becomes sexual, or even "just" social. Like, can you still get some psychological work done?
Sorry if I seem nosey -- I'm interested. In a vaguely similar situation. [Not lovers though]
I'm not one who can explain the technicalities about why it's usually harmful to the patient in the long run. But I do think you're brave for posting about something so taboo. [though I can't help but also be concerned for you :) ]
Best, Elaine
Posted by widget on February 2, 2007, at 20:39:29
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » Pippa, posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 19:56:17
To caraher, you are obviously a very ethical and moral person. Thank you for the advice. However, I am still unclear about why this relationship would be so devastating. It is something to do with the power differential. Actually, I thought the more personal involvement would add some parity to the relationship. Can you explain further? The therapist in question is absolutely fantastic and beyond reproach.
Posted by Honore on February 2, 2007, at 21:28:42
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by widget on February 2, 2007, at 20:39:29
Hi, widget.
The power differential might be what makes the relationship so intense and compelling at this time.
You seem, to me, to be idealizing your T a great deal-- which is often a stage in the unfolding of therapy. However, eventually, one needs to learn that this idealization isn't reliable-- that it leaves out too much. The disillusionment can be painful, although manageable and eventually therapeutic- - in therapy.
If you've having a romantic relationship with your T, the disillusionment can be profound and even devastating-- esp. if it involves abandonment, or exploitation.
I notice that your T somehow hasn't told his family because the "time isn't right"-- I have to tell you, though, that that doesn't sound very promising to me. For one thing the "time is *never* and I do mean *never* right to tell one's wife and children that one is having a relationship with anyone, especially a patient. or-- if you're in love with someone-- the time is always right, because you feel committed to being with that person.
Also, I have to differ with you in one important respect-- you say your T is "beyond reproach"-- that, with all due respect, is precisely what he is not beyond. Even if your affair works out-- he has violated a very strong ethical duty-- to you, to his other patients, to the therapeutic community, and, on another level, to his family.
I'm concerned for you.
Honore
Posted by bird in the sky on February 2, 2007, at 22:45:21
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by Honore on February 2, 2007, at 21:28:42
I have identified with you all and i thank you for sharing so much. I don't write here much but read pretty often. Even though i have been in love with my therapist for a couple years now or so, and he has explained to me all this you also have explained, i still wish we could have sex. I mostly think about being held so close and imagine it often. I also think of sex which brings us even closer (in my mind). I am still a bit obsessed with the idea and when i am with him i sneak looks at his chest and imagine my head up against it. this desire is very strong and i wish i could get it fulfilled. maybe there should be a professional who would do that for people. hold them in a loving way. every day is hard cause i am always thinking of it , when i can let my mind go. someimes it makes me horny, and i dont understand this cause i thought it would be some kind of mother or father thing. I often masturbate before i see my T, so i will be more relaxed. does anyone do the same?
Posted by Honore on February 3, 2007, at 1:28:09
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by Honore on February 2, 2007, at 21:28:42
confusion.
Also, in conflated your statements, so what is relevant to Pippa excludes the part about her therapist being beyond reproach.
Again, sorry about the confusion.
Honore
Posted by Pippa on February 3, 2007, at 2:33:46
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by Honore on February 2, 2007, at 21:28:42
Honore
Thank you for your comments and replies.
I knew when I posted that I might be opening pandora's box.
Believe me, before we started our affair we talked about the implications that our actions would have on our families and damage that our love could have on his career and professional standing. Based on rational discussion and a deep trust for each other we started our future.
My T 's reason for not telling his wife and children is because she has a terminal illness and the children do not need the added grief of dealing with what we have started at this stage in their lives.
My husband and family do not know who I am in this relationship with. Leaving my home was the hardest decision I have ever made. It was the right decision because I had to be true to myself and them.
I dont believe I am idealising my T, but I will consider that opinion. We have something that is very hard to explain - a relationship based on total trust, physical compatibility and love!
I respect my T's decision not to tell his wife and family and understand why the time is not right. I am sad about it and have to admit that at times I have doubted that he would ever tell her. However, we have talked this through and despite the odd moments of insecurity can live with what we have decided.
I am in love - with an honourable, passionate and grieving man who has changed my life. Our route to finding each other has and will cause a great deal of pain. However it is something we have to go through to allow ourselves to be together for ever.
Pippa
Posted by Pippa on February 3, 2007, at 3:49:03
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by bird in the sky on February 2, 2007, at 22:45:21
Bird in the Sky
Yes is often masturbate before I have a session with my T, but there again I masturbate two or three times a day most days.
I find that the release of tension and the relaxing effect means that I can concentrate on the session and get the most benefit from our time together.
I think i also do it so that I know I am not totally reliant on him for my orgasms and sexual release.I want to know that our relationship is not just on a sexual level ... Masturbation allows me to do that.
Masturbation after a session, when we have not had sex, produces some of my most intense orgasms. Often I have to stop the car on the way home to bring myself off and to release the sexual tension that has built up during a session. Especially when we have talked about my libido and my past.
In the UK people still do not talk openly about "self-gratification" or "masturbation" or even sexual relations. I find it refreshing that I can talk on here and be open about about my sexual needs and what I do.
How refreshing it is to be open and honest with people other than my T
Pippa
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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