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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pegasus on May 4, 2007, at 12:40:00
Today I had the last of three recent sessions with my ex-T. At the end, we reconfirmed that we still have a relationship, and that I can still email him, and that I can call him for more sessions in the future. I told him that I wish I could still do therapy with him, and he said, "Aw! That's so sweet. I mean it." Not sure what to make of that response. He seemed genuinely surprised and pleased that I'd say it. But also, there was something off about his response. Can't put my finger on it. Maybe it was that I said it after the last minute, and he was trying hard to wrap up on time? So, it seemed a little forced or restrained or something.
The whole session was about me asking him to tell me what I was like from his point of view. I don't think I asked quite what I meant somehow, even though I was really sure that I knew what I wanted to ask. We talked and talked and talked about how he could tell me, and he has many times in the past, what he sees in me. But that would be coming from the outside, and I have a more direct source of knowing all of it, from inside myself. He said that if I guessed what he'd say, I'd probably be right on. And he wanted me to try at one point. But I wouldn't. Because then he could just say, yes, that's right. And I'd never know whether he really would have said any of it on his own.
So, eventually, he told me this: "You're an amazing person, Peg. I've loved our relationship. You're wonderful. You're smart and kind and strong and funny, [and more here that I've lost already] and you're persistent in a way that is ok. Like in this conversation, you keep insisting on this request, but you do it in a way that makes it ok for me to tell you this now.
You're very stubborn and you hold on to resentments and grudges. You're hard to connect with sometimes when you get caught in your previous conceptualizations [of myself?]. [There was more here, but I've lost it too.]
From my perspective you seem very open and direct. Even when there is a momentary frustration (not assigned to me or you) that doesn't define the container of our relationship. I've always appreciated how from the very beginning you've been open to this idea of directly experiencing things. It's not what comes easily to you, and you go to the cognitive side quickly, but you've always tried and worked at your direct experience. I trust that you're going to take what I've said today and work with it. And . . . I've said all of this to you before many times, in a way that I really think you heard it."
I think what I missed asking was the aspect about what of all of that, or something else, he missed or felt a loss about when he had to leave. I wanted to hear him say he was sad to leave me, for his own sake. That there was something in our relationship that was hard to lose. Or something along those lines. I want to know how he thought I handled it. How am I handling it now? I want him to notice all the work I've done to get to a point where I could even ask for these sessions.
Then I made him tell me that he was glad to talk to me again. Although, of course, I had to admit that I knew already that he was, from inside myself. I think the truth maybe is somewhere in between. I suspected that he'd be glad, but I needed the confirmation to be sure.
Would it be completely unconscionable to email him later and ask him to fill in my blanks? Maybe if I make an attempt to fill them in for myself first (from inside myself . . .).
It was so sad to hang up. I've loved these weeks in between the first and last sessions. I've felt like he's back, helping me hold this stuff. Helping me find myself. And now I'm on my own again. I don't know why my current T doesn't count. At least he said that we're only ending now because I said I needed to.
Well, better buck up and collect myself. I have the rest of the day on solo toddler duty. She's coming back from swim lessons with her dad now. Maybe he'll have tired her out for a long nap, if I'm lucky.
peg
Posted by pegasus on May 4, 2007, at 13:25:07
In reply to last session w/ex-T, posted by pegasus on May 4, 2007, at 12:40:00
Sorry about this, you guys, but I have so many thoughts swirling, I just need to capture them somewhere that I'm sure I'll be able to find them again. Babble has become my "notes about therapy" filing cabinet.
At the moment I'm kind of irked at myself and my ex-T that I didn't manage to ask him exactly what I wanted to. Well . . . I did, the week before. But when we got back to it this week, we talked about one piece of it that isn't the piece that felt most important to me. Yes, I wanted to hear his impressions of me. But more important, I wanted to hear what was *special* about me. What was he sorry to lose contact with? Not just "who am I? Am I really here?", but "what's valuable about me, to you". He's right, I do have a sense of myself from the inside. I've worked hard to build that over the last few years. And I didn't really need him to confirm it. It's just that once we got into the conversation I got confused or something, and that's the thing I kept grabbing onto. I also do know deep down that he likes me, and I like him. That's not really what I needed to confirm either.
So, I still don't have a sense for what he was feeling *about me* when he was closing his practice and moving. If I try to go at it the way he was suggesting, from within myself, I'd guess that he was probably frustrated that I was not turning to my strengths, and that I kept bringing up how painful it was, and how sad and worried I was. I'd guess that he had other clients that were in worse shape, that he spent more energy worrying about. I'd guess that he knew I'd be fine in the long run, and wished I would only recognize that for myself.
I'd guess that after he left, he'd think of me sometimes and wonder how I was doing, with a sense that I'd probably be doing fine. He probably missed the way we connected and joked sometimes, the way I did take in a lot of what he said, and tried so hard. Oh! Brave! He said today that I was brave! I bet he missed my bravery.
I don't think he had a very complete sense of the pain that I was in. That I cried about it pretty much every day for at least a year after he left, and frequently for another year after that. I don't think he really understood that it feels like needing to gracefully rip off an arm and give it to someone who needs it more.
There are also a hodge podge of unrelated little details that I wanted to tell him or ask him about:
- I'm doing my counseling internship next year! At a hospice. Isn't that cool? I'm actually starting that new career.
- My daughter is so friggin amazing. She really is.
- How is his family?
- I feel so strong lately. I think I've changed a lot in a good way.
- I've never known anyone else remotely like him.Oh, bother. When I try to nail it all down, it floats around and changes. I'm going to find a way from *within myself* to work this into something good.
peg
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2007, at 17:08:05
In reply to last session w/ex-T, posted by pegasus on May 4, 2007, at 12:40:00
Could this possibly be one of those times when he was trying to answer your question, but wasn't able to do so in the way that you needed?
The things he said sound as if they may be the reasons why you're special to him, and why it was a loss to have to move away.
If he's anything like my therapist, he both does and doesn't get what it was like for you. He might understand intellectually, but maybe not viscerally? My therapist always says he understands and even repeats back what I'm saying appropriately, but then illustrates that he really doesn't understand the depth of my attachment in any gut level way.
I think it's great that he's giving you these sessions, and that you're able to be so open.My therapist and I were talking about my attachment the other day and he inadvertantly used the same metaphor I did. A duckling imprinting on it's mommy. He said that he was there when I came out of my shell. (And of course he had a lot to do with my coming out of my shell.)
Your new therapist may be terrific, and she may be very helpful to you, and you may like her very much. But... there's no way she can be what he was to you because the circumstances were different. That's not necessarily bad in itself. But I think you may always have some grief when you think about your old therapist, even though you continue to have a relationship of a sort. And maybe that's as it should be? It hurts, but maybe it's as it should be. I wish I could express that better. What I mean is that the special people that aren't in our lives the way we would like them to be, from death or moving away or drifting apart, it wouldn't be quite right if there weren't pain mixed with the positive feelings.
Oh, I don't know. I'm getting mixed up in my own mind.
Posted by canadagirl on May 4, 2007, at 18:19:05
In reply to last session w/ex-T, posted by pegasus on May 4, 2007, at 12:40:00
That sounds so wonderful and such a great opportunity to have had with him, to go back again and talk about things like this. One thing I have learned, is to say what you truly need to say to someone you care about. And never suppress a caring thought. I'm sure he cares about you too. Within the confines of a professional relationship, there is only so much he can really say but I'm sure he missed you too. It sounds like you both had a great relationship and he might have worded things his own way, which is OK, as long as the meaning got across.
Posted by annierose on May 4, 2007, at 19:16:40
In reply to last session w/ex-T, posted by pegasus on May 4, 2007, at 12:40:00
I admire your strength and determination to search for the truth with your relationship with your former therapist. On the one hand, I can see that it has healing potential, on the other, it does stir things up, and questions will continue to arise.
I identify with you as I am now seeing my former therapist from 18 years ago. In the beginning, it set off so much emotion to be with her again ... mostly good. Then over time, I started to struggle with the same issues I left with. Your circumstance is completely different because he moved away. I understand your connection with him over other therapists. I too sought treatment with others inbetween. Yes they were helpful, but they weren't "t". My soul bonded with her.
You are lucky that he is really to talk, write and keep the lines of communication open. He did let you know wonderful things about yourself. Now you must let your heart believe it.
Posted by Honore on May 5, 2007, at 17:56:50
In reply to Re: last session w/ex-T, posted by pegasus on May 4, 2007, at 13:25:07
Pegasus, it sounds as if you're describing your fears, not what he would say, when you say that he was frustrated and wanted you to turn to your strengths, etc. It sounds as if he was wanting you to go away and not make so much trouble for him. And that he thought, with some satisfaction, that you had-- you were fine; he didn't need to worry or feel somehow that he had let you down. Somehow I don't think that's how it was.
But I think you need to ask. You want to know if you were special-- you want to ask if he missed you.
Not that his saying you were special will necessarily convince you-- but that his saying it, if he does, will help you to find, or look for and keep in mind, the part of you that can know-- You have to know from inside yourself== but you need him to tell you that you can trust that part of you that knows-- that it's not just fooling you, letting you believe a happy illusion.
Maybe you need to ask him if he knows how much of a loss you felt, how deep it went. If he doesn't know, maybe you also need to tell him more, and know that he does understand better.
But it seems to me, you're not giving yourself--and him-- enough credit either. I know you are-- but maybe you have to let that not be totally trumped by the parts of what you needed to do that didn't quite get down. Both are there-- but I'd hate to think the good parts got swallowed, or dwarfed, by the things that didn't quite get done.
Honore
Posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 18:49:59
In reply to Re: last session w/ex-T, posted by pegasus on May 4, 2007, at 13:25:07
(((Peg)))
What I hear all over these posts is,
"I miss you. Do you miss me?"
"You were/are so special to me, am I special to you?"
"Look at what I'm doing well! Are you proud of me? Can you see how the work we did together is paying off? I'm sad that you aren't here to continue the work."
"I loved and needed you. It hurt when you left. Did you hurt too?"...I think he did hurt. And he did miss you. The anguish as you try to work through all this is so apparent. It is a mixed bag of "I'm so mad at you!" and "I'm doing well - can you see that?!" Your grief at losing such an important relationship is profound. You weren't ready. The Universe didn't care. Accepting this was so hard. I can see how you'd really want to know if he struggled in the aftermath like you did. So what if there were potentially "worse off" clients? That doesn't diminish in anyway your grief.
The thought floats in (though this is definitely MY issue) if the little girl who was so attached, wonders if she did something that made him leave...or was there something she could have done to make him stay. And wondering if he thought about you and missed you (which I'm sure is true) is essentially asking, "did I matter? Did I have any effect on your life? Am I seen, in my suffering and in my loss?"
I think you might still be looking for the exact right question which gets you the answer that magically makes you feel better about this loss. And I'm so sorry, dear Peg, but it doesn't exist. This loss hurts, there is such a bitter-sweet quality to this reconnection, because it won't ever take away all the hurt. I suspect this will remain a tender place, this place in your heart that loves him. Intellectually you will reconcile all of the questions and answers given; In your heart, you will feel sadness.
How special he must really be for you to have developed such a deep connection. Your work to try and understand yourself now honors this connection. You are both amazing.
Posted by pegasus on May 6, 2007, at 22:09:36
In reply to last session w/ex-T, posted by pegasus on May 4, 2007, at 12:40:00
Thank you everyone. You guys are so precious. I don’t know what I’d do if I couldn’t get your feedback on stuff like this. And you’re right. You all are right. He’s telling me what I’m asking him to, and it’s never going to be enough. He’s not my T any more, and it’s painful, and that’s the end of the story. Pretty much.
I get so stuck on the idea of knowing from within myself how he feels. I mean, I guess I do suspect some things about how he feels, but it seems like I can’t actually know unless he tells me. Often enough I seem to be wrong.
For example, for most of the three years since he left, I was convinced that the way my therapy with him ended was a result of him having some personal issues of his own that were getting in the way of dealing well with what I was bringing in. I felt so unheard, which made the ending that much harder. It seemed like he only wanted to talk about having this “good goodbye” that he had in mind, and how much we had accomplished, and how good things would come out of it, and that this was just the way life was, etc. It just seemed so clear that my anger was not welcome, and that he didn’t think my pain was as bad as I was trying to tell him.
But apparently, that was not at all what was going on for him. He was trying to encourage me to see my own strength to get through it. He was trying to shore me up. Because he thought I was stronger than I thought I was. He felt like he had a limited amount of time, and that was the most important thing he could do to help me.
So, that was a big miss. I mean, I never would have guessed that was how he was looking at it. So in at least that one case, I did not, in fact, have the correct answer to how he felt, when I tried to look for it from inside me. Granted, my conclusions didn’t feel right, based on what I knew about him from the previous years of therapy. But it was the only way I could make sense of how he was acting with me.
So, then, when we recently cleared up that misunderstanding, I think I wanted to go back and have him tell me what his feelings were during the ending. I’d had it wrong for nearly three years, and that misunderstanding had been pretty painful for me. If I look for the answer from inside, it seems like I’ll be in danger of making a similar mistake again.
And then there were other times when what I thought I knew about my relationship with him came into question. For example, one time I had a session with him and my husband. It was horrible, because he acted toward my husband, whom he’d never met, exactly the same way he acted toward me. And I had thought that he acted that way with me because he liked me, or because we had developed a particular kind of relationship. But, it turned out that he just acts like that with everyone. Which, of course, makes sense, because his job is to connect with people, and make them feel comfortable. It’s just that I had interpreted it as something else – a special connection between us - and felt a fool for it.
And, yes, Daisy, I do desperately want him to say everything that you said. That he misses me, that I was special, that it hurt him to leave me, that I had some effect on his life, that he understands my pain, that he still cares, that he’s still interested, that he’s proud of me. He has told me that he missed me, which was great to hear. And that he didn’t want to end my therapy. And that he loved our relationship. And that he was glad to talk to me again. So, does that amount to the same thing? I don’t know . . . I’m not so sure what I heard him say.
I'm sorry. I know I'm writing the same damn thing over and over. Thank you for being here anyway.
peg
Posted by pegasus on May 8, 2007, at 10:37:00
In reply to last session w/ex-T, posted by pegasus on May 4, 2007, at 12:40:00
I just need to get something else in this thread, before I forget it.
I've been thinking about this notion of looking inward to find the answers to my questions about my ex-Ts feelings and thoughts about me. And, you know, that's what I've been doing for so many years. I think it's because I found the answers that I wanted to hear that I had the courage to ask to talk to him again. If I really thought that he didn't care about me, think I was special in some way, miss me at least a little, etc. then I definitely wouldn't be asking him about those things. And, in fact, when I asked him the first time, I didn't ask him *whether* I was special, or *whether* he lost anything when we ended. I asked him *what* was special, and *what* he lost.
So, maybe what this was all about was just wanting to hear him say it. Or wanting some of the details. Like he's been saying, I had the 1000 ft. view, but I had hoped to zoom in on it a little. I think it's the details where I tend to get lost in what he would think of me.
And maybe he did answer those questions.
I appreciate everyone helping me work through this, and all of your encouragement.
peg
Posted by Daisym on May 9, 2007, at 1:08:10
In reply to One more thought, posted by pegasus on May 8, 2007, at 10:37:00
Everything you said makes sense to me. It feels almost like you are trying to prove to yourself that it is/was OK to want to reconnect and to gather some details. I know you "know" it is...but do you "feel" it is?
Families share the same stories over and over again to keep the details alive. We check in with those we care about to see if they had the same experience that we did. We confirm that "yes, this was unique, or important, or special." It helps us know ourselves and it helps us believe in our own perceptions. So it makes total sense to me that even if you know something inside yourself, you want to see if what you know matches what he knows. You want to connect through this shared experience. And you want to add his details to yours.
Think of war buddies. Going through an intense experience with someone creates a bond that is pretty unshakeable and you go over and over that experience. I think intense therapy has many of the same elements.
Finally, I believe that the little kid inside you needed/needs him to mirror the experience for you. She knows what she is feeling but she needs his support to trust what she knows. It reminds me of the young child who walks further and further away from her parent, but looks back to check and be sure, "this is OK, right?"
I'm glad you are still posting your thoughts about this.
Posted by pegasus on May 9, 2007, at 11:36:35
In reply to Re: One more thought » pegasus, posted by Daisym on May 9, 2007, at 1:08:10
Hey Daisy,
He said an interesting thing about the mirroring, and I'm wondering what you think of it. He said that when you're a child, taking in the parental reflection is a primary process. I guess meaning that when you get the reflection from your caregivers, you connect it with your own experience and grow from that. But when you're an adult and try to do that work, when you weren't able to as a child, it is always a secondary process. So, I guess he means that we've largely lost the ability to directly connect it to our own experience, which comes so naturally as a child.
So, then he hesitated to give me the feedback I was requesting, so that I could have the space to employ that primary process of finding it in myself instead. I guess the idea is that I need to exercise the part of connecting to my own experience, if I'm going to be able to do this work completely. And I might not have done that without guidance.What do you think of that?
peg
Posted by Daisym on May 9, 2007, at 20:14:41
In reply to Re: One more thought » Daisym, posted by pegasus on May 9, 2007, at 11:36:35
I think it makes sense up to a point. But adults have to learn to trust their own realities and experiences in the world and the way they do that is by "checking out" their perceptions with a trusted other. I think we internalize enough of our therapists over time so that we can do the checking out alone -- sort of hold what we are thinking and feeling up and weigh it against what we "know" our therapists would say.
Kids do this with their parents, of course. Only they skip the checking out part, which is why things can be internalized in such a negative way. For example, I'm working with a child who is completely defiant of anything mom suggests. Mom is trying really hard to protect this child - but you can see that the child has perceived her safety attempts as negative judgements - and now does most things "in secret" from mom. This child had no way to check out his perception that his mom said no because she didn't think he could do it well enough. But as adults we can look for intention behind action or words and ask clarifying questions.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but haven't you had to do a fair amount of work to undo a negative internal voice (from your mom?) that was critical and harsh? This internal voice was your truth at one time. So trusting your perceptions about someone's caring is twice as hard. Of course you want to check it out with him.
And one more thought, as if I haven't had too many already, I think your ability to "read" him was shaken. You most likely would have looked inside yourself for those answers and trusted your gut, except that some one shook the snow globe. You ask: "was I special?" Your gut says "yes." You answer: "but he left me." Your gut says, "yes, but can both be true?" Instead of driving yourself crazy internally, you go and check it out by calling him. I say there is great wisdom in being able to listen to yourself when you need outside reassurance to quiet your mind. That doesn't negate the work that you've done to look inside yourself and trust that. Instead, it shores it up when you confirm what you "knew already."
Sorry for such a long winded reply. There is something in this for me, I've become aware. I'm learning as you're growing. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by pegasus on May 10, 2007, at 17:23:11
In reply to Re: One more thought » pegasus, posted by Daisym on May 9, 2007, at 20:14:41
Yes, that sounds right to me. I do know things, but I need the reassurance, or confirmation. What I was starting to be able to trust about our relationship *was* all shaken up by his leaving, and by the weird way our relating changed during that ending phase. So, yes, I think that's a lot of why I wanted to check in with him again. I had a lot of doubts and confusion. I really don't think I could have worked that through on my own.
Thanks so much.
peg
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