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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 3, 2007, at 22:07:37
The 3 musketeers. Dissociation, Depersonalization, Panic.
I haven't been able to go to the movies in over a year without one of them showing up.
Is it just any intense experience? Is it something specific that the movie triggers (I HATE THAT wORD)? Is it learned by now after so many times of "let's go to the movies and see what happens"
All I want is the normal stuff. The big summer blockbuster, the enjoyment of big fireworks. I'd even settle for not being afraid of new neighbors. Sideways edgy glances when I dare to step out and walk half a block to the bench by the pond. To watch some dragonflies and birdies. Worried about what people think of me. Will they know? The ugly stuff? Read in my eyes the fear? Will they know that I'm scared even in the midst of [because of?] safety?
This stuff never bothered me before. Not to panic, anyways. Out of body. Out of my F*cking mind.
I don't know which is worse- the dissociation that yields to the feeling of losing time... trance. The depersonalization- like I'm in this body far far away without any control over my own limbs, without any recognition of my own self. The panic that makes my face hot, my throat choking itself. The consequences of all three of these. Coping mechanisms that create more problems than they solve.
Is this EVER going to go away? I hate this. I'm going to go into hiding now. stay in bed away from sharp implements. what a waste I am.so sad so self-hating. nausea.
yes. I took a f*cking klonopin. no. i did not drink a beer. no i don't ask for help. husband can tell though. hovering. in a good way.
off
Posted by muffled on July 3, 2007, at 23:27:11
In reply to F*ck this anxiety sh*t.*trigger*, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 3, 2007, at 22:07:37
> The 3 musketeers. Dissociation, Depersonalization, Panic.
>
> I haven't been able to go to the movies in over a year without one of them showing up.
>
> Is it just any intense experience? Is it something specific that the movie triggers (I HATE THAT wORD)? Is it learned by now after so many times of "let's go to the movies and see what happens"*I just don't like sitting in the dark surrounded by strangers with the music too loud and god knows WHAT under my feet....
If I had to go, i'd want an edge seat for easy egress..
I don't goto movies, by choice fortunately. I just don't like it.
>
> All I want is the normal stuff. The big summer blockbuster, the enjoyment of big fireworks. I'd even settle for not being afraid of new neighbors. Sideways edgy glances when I dare to step out and walk half a block to the bench by the pond. To watch some dragonflies and birdies. Worried about what people think of me. Will they know? The ugly stuff? Read in my eyes the fear? Will they know that I'm scared even in the midst of [because of?] safety?**Good questions. This is a CBT exercise just WAITING to happen...(ya, you can smack me now)
>
> This stuff never bothered me before. Not to panic, anyways. Out of body. Out of my F*cking mind.**I find xanax is my fav in these situ...
You still settling into your new reality, give yoursaelf some time....?
>
> I don't know which is worse- the dissociation that yields to the feeling of losing time... trance. The depersonalization- like I'm in this body far far away without any control over my own limbs, without any recognition of my own self. The panic that makes my face hot, my throat choking itself. The consequences of all three of these. Coping mechanisms that create more problems than they solve.**for me SOMEtimes, I can kinda get into the fact that I'm 'tripping' and its free.....and I can get quite floaty and weirded, but not in a bad way. I can only do this sometimes. Other than that its either curling up, xanax, or sometimes I just leave and someone else magically gets what needs to be done done. Its a wonder really.
Yeah, sometimes 'grounding' just further freaks me, cuz it makes me realize how far gone I am...
Relax breathing freaks me cuz it puts focus on my body...WHO'S body???...body?...breathing?...where am I? who's breathing?...and , you get the pic....
>
> Is this EVER going to go away? I hate this. I'm going to go into hiding now. stay in bed away from sharp implements. what a waste I am.so sad so self-hating. nausea.**I dunno LL. Seems you been doing good work. Seems it ought to go away or ease up eventually. I mostly just go with the tried and TRUE, "this will pass, emotions pass..etc"
Again(CBT), mebbe you could write down these negative statements, and when you calmer, refute them, as they are untrue.(you just gonna have to trust me here...)
And try not to hurt yourself.
You WILL come back.
You been hurt enuf already.
The feelings WILL ease up.
You OK LL. It just feels so overwhelming and consuming feeling the way you wrote at the time....but it gets better, really it does.
You doing OK.
Just takes time.
Its hard.
But you can do it and so can I.
Get thru to the next better time.
M
>
> yes. I took a f*cking klonopin. no. i did not drink a beer. no i don't ask for help. husband can tell though. hovering. in a good way.**I don't ask for help either...
Babbling is good too.
M
Posted by OzLand on July 4, 2007, at 0:59:15
In reply to F*ck this anxiety sh*t.*trigger*, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 3, 2007, at 22:07:37
Is your current therapist expert in dissociation, etc. Makes a world of difference. I would not have slowing started going down the tubes deeper into depression if I had had the therapist I now have and who is expert with abuse, dissociation, etc. I am doing so much better with someone who knows what the hell he is doing and who can help me manage and deal with things without becoming overwhelmed.
Posted by DAisym on July 4, 2007, at 1:26:57
In reply to F*ck this anxiety sh*t.*trigger*, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 3, 2007, at 22:07:37
This is perhaps an obvious suggestion but think about your medications. I had a huge hard-time with anxiety after being on wellbutrin for a year. So I switched and it was better.
I'm sorry you are having such a rough time.
Posted by Nathan_Arizona on July 4, 2007, at 9:58:04
In reply to F*ck this anxiety sh*t.*trigger*, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 3, 2007, at 22:07:37
I hear ya!
It's soooooooooo not fair that you just can't go to a friggin' movie. I mean, I am sure that your rational mind says "it's just a movie", but when those senses are overwhelmed with sound and flashes in the dark then it's like "Screw the rational mind!
However, try not to be so hard on yourself. It's all a part of the condition and it sucks right now, but that's just how it is.
I'm afraid of the mail - yes the mail and I get the same symptoms as you whenever I check it.
I will say that what helped me a lot with the dissociation is to put a piece of ice in my mouth and just leave it there. it switches my focus to the ice and helps me to snap back into the present.
Take care
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 4, 2007, at 10:12:08
In reply to Re: F*ck this anxiety sh*t.*trigger*, posted by muffled on July 3, 2007, at 23:27:11
Thanks Muffled,
I just went to the designated "safe place" even though my bed hasn't arrived yet, there's still a mat on the floor. Even though my comforter hasn't arrived yet, there's a blankie. I curled up in fetal and husband tucked me in and sat with me a bit, turned on the white noise machine and went down to watch TV. I give him an A+.I didn't hurt myself.
I think I'll be better today. I'm kindly requesting a trip to target to buy bath mats and hand towels. Shopping is a good distraction. Maybe I'll go out at 9 and watch some 4th of july fireworks. I don't want to go to the big show, but maybe some neighborhood kids will have some sparklers or something.
CBT exercises? tell me more, I promise I won't smack you. What do I have to do? write down what I'm feeling when I'm in the midst of it? Does my post count as fulfillment of part of the exercise? I've never done any CBT work. My workbook from the bookstore is in a box somewhere, taking a break from travelling for the holiday. I feel like a dumbass, even though I've never taken any clinical psychology classes I've taken cognitive psychology. Oh... I know all about how memory and attention "work".
The IRONIC thing is that when I was packing for my move, I found about 6 inches worth of papers (journal articles) on PTSD, false memory, memory and dissociation, memory for trauma, etc. I forgot that I read this for my senior thesis stuff (neurosci, not psych, in case you were wondering). Totally forgot. The ironic thing, again, is that I read all of this thinking from my analytical brain- how this stuff works. I never ONCE thought that it would EVER apply to me. I thought my childhood was just fine and dandy. eccentric, if anything...
Sometimes I enjoy the trip. That's why I've been watching so many X-files. The stories are so "out there" and fox mulder is so ...photogenic... that I can kind of go with the flow. That's on a tiny 8 inch portable DVD screen though, the one we bring on our camping trips to watch "ghost stories". The big screen- just too much. not flow but flood.
breathing and grounding is what I was exploring in meditation when I briefly resumed it in May. By mid-June both of my T's told me that I needed to stop. They were both pretty direct about that. Very un-T like, so direct! Problem is that when I start listening to my body I am able to hear a song of loathing, tragedy, horror. etc. and some nice stuff too. rarely.
Xanax. Worried I'd get hooked.
thanks for your long post muffled. you get it, I think. nice not to feel alone
-Ll
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 4, 2007, at 10:23:36
In reply to Re: F*ck this anxiety sh*t.*trigger* » LlurpsieNoodle, posted by OzLand on July 4, 2007, at 0:59:15
> Is your current therapist expert in dissociation, etc. Makes a world of difference. I would not have slowing started going down the tubes deeper into depression if I had had the therapist I now have and who is expert with abuse, dissociation, etc. I am doing so much better with someone who knows what the hell he is doing and who can help me manage and deal with things without becoming overwhelmed.
Well, he worked at a veteran's hospital for 30 years, so, I think there's a good chance that he's seen his fair share of dissociation and the other 2 musketeers. I'm optimistic, but I've only seen him 3? times, so it's going to take some time, I suppose. I can see him being a calm presence in the face of intense experience though, which is why I picked him "quieT"
I'm glad you've found someone who's helping you so much- keep us posted?
-Ll
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 4, 2007, at 10:30:09
In reply to Re: F*ck this anxiety sh*t.*trigger* » LlurpsieNoodle, posted by DAisym on July 4, 2007, at 1:26:57
> This is perhaps an obvious suggestion but think about your medications. I had a huge hard-time with anxiety after being on wellbutrin for a year. So I switched and it was better.
>
> I'm sorry you are having such a rough time.(sheepishly)
I'm supposed to take one of my meds (geodon = short half-life) 3x a day, but I forgot to take my dinner dose, ended up taking 2 doses at bedtime instead.
I've only seen my new pdoc once, but he suggested taking the klonopin before things got too bad. I should know by now that the movies are always going to be overwhelming. So, I should always take a nibble before the movies, right? So why do I always tell myself- I don't NEED this. I'm strong enough to go to the f!@#%&!ng movies without stupid drugs. why can't I just accept it as my "anti-freak-out vitamin"? instead of "Oh great, Llurpsie's dosing up again..."
I'll ask my new pdoc what to do about this stuff. maybe he has some ideas...
-Ll
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 4, 2007, at 10:36:52
In reply to Preaching to the choir sister!, posted by Nathan_Arizona on July 4, 2007, at 9:58:04
> I hear ya!
>
> It's soooooooooo not fair that you just can't go to a friggin' movie. I mean, I am sure that your rational mind says "it's just a movie", but when those senses are overwhelmed with sound and flashes in the dark then it's like "Screw the rational mind!
>
> However, try not to be so hard on yourself. It's all a part of the condition and it sucks right now, but that's just how it is.being hard on myself is also part of the condition (ugh)
>
> I'm afraid of the mail - yes the mail and I get the same symptoms as you whenever I check it.
>
> I will say that what helped me a lot with the dissociation is to put a piece of ice in my mouth and just leave it there. it switches my focus to the ice and helps me to snap back into the present.
>
> Take careWhat helped me with the mail was my T telling me that much of our adult life is spent cleaning up, and that opening mail is part of that. Make a special time and place, and contain it so that mail-stress doesn't "infect" the rest of the day. (right...) But it helped me with bedtime and eating, so maybe it can help you with mail-anxiety.
Ice is a good idea. I might try a variant of that-if I finally decide to venture out of the house without my husband in tow (i.e. to meet the neighbors) I could have my travel mug of tea with me. tea is a good sensory experience for me to connect with here and now. it's hot, and I like it without sugar so that it's kind of pungent and often bitter. all kinds of strange herbal concoctions. Or I can bring my ipod and promise to listen to a whole symphony (Hadyn, not Mahler!)
This is good, now I'm thinking about ways to get over this stuff. having a plan helps a lot. Thanks NA
-Ll
Posted by muffled on July 4, 2007, at 22:53:10
In reply to Re: F*ck this anxiety sh*t.*trigger* » muffled, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 4, 2007, at 10:12:08
> I just went to the designated "safe place" even though my bed hasn't arrived yet,
> I didn't hurt myself.
> I think I'll be better today. I'm kindly requesting a trip to target to buy bath mats and hand towels.*wow you really doing so much better at 'coping' type stuff. Good for you! You were like me, you'd wander, lost, confused, not knowing whats what, or what to do....ya, we both do MUCH better.
> CBT exercises? tell me more, I promise I won't smack you. What do I have to do? write down what I'm feeling when I'm in the midst of it? Does my post count as fulfillment of part of the exercise? I've never done any CBT work.
**well I only can do the basics, I not so good at figgering stuff mostly. I never beleive its gonna work. But I guess it does. Mebbe I am just lazy.
Anyhow, you pretty much got it. Write down negs thots you have ANYtime. Then when you got time, refute them, cuz often we tell ourselves such negative CRAP. It seems real and true really to us, but when I take a good hard look at some of my 'stuff', well, its not stuff I'd ever say bout anyone else...so why am I SO hard on my ownself....
At one time I did honestly think I was evil...
I thot I shed badness everywhere I went...
Now I know thats not true...mostly...
I struggling with the 'I deserve whatever I got/get, its all my own fault, etc'. I still beleive that most of me does. There is a very small voiced rational part that knows its not true, but its pretty much drowned out....
> The IRONIC thing is that when I was packing for my move, I found about 6 inches worth of papers (journal articles) I never ONCE thought that it would EVER apply to me. I thought my childhood was just fine and dandy. eccentric, if anything...**sigh, its seriously concerning to me how we can b*llshit ourselves....
> breathing and grounding is what I was exploring in meditation when I briefly resumed it in May. By mid-June both of my T's told me that I needed to stop. They were both pretty direct about that. Very un-T like, so direct! Problem is that when I start listening to my body I am able to hear a song of loathing, tragedy, horror. etc. and some nice stuff too. rarely.
**Oh COOL, you have no idea how great it is for me to hear that!!!!!!!! I kept feeling like I was a TOTAL freak cuz I can't do those things w/o getting more stressed!!!!!!
Glad I not alone in that.
> Xanax. Worried I'd get hooked.**I been taking xanax or klon for many years. I take it (other than 1 or 2x) just as needed. Thats why I like xanax, cuz I always wait too late.....but I find it seems to work extrodinbarily fast for me?! I can FEEL it when it starts to work. If I can just survive till it kicks in, and its easier when I know I've taken it, then its OK.
I STILL only take .5 xanax for anxiety. If its gotten REALLY out of hand I been known to take 1.0. But that is rare. I proly go thru about 100 or so .25 tabs/ yr. and I not addicted. It seems to be that I take more for awhile, then when things are calmer, I take none. So mebbe thats why no tolerance build up.> thanks for your long post muffled. you get it, I think. nice not to feel alone
**yeah, it IS nice. Thx you too.
M
Posted by Sigismund on July 5, 2007, at 0:20:57
In reply to Preaching to the choir sister!, posted by Nathan_Arizona on July 4, 2007, at 9:58:04
We seem to have this idea that we shouldn't be frightened.
I'm not so sure.
The feeling of safety, IMO, is an illusion, although it could be argued that the feeling of threat is too.I've just finished a 3 day training course in how to use a chain saw.
Thirteen Australian men revving their chainsaws.
After the first day I felt really sick.
When I told the people at the station I was going to do the course they were pleased
'That's really cool'
and sceptical
'You're not training to be a bloke, are you Declan?'
This sounded mildly challenging so I immediately agreed.
So there we are, out chopping up these big trees and I'm trying to remember the procedures, my meds and vitamins, and at the end of the day the other blokes have made a wooden football and a couch and chairs and Godknowswhatelse.
I made nothing.
It reminded me of 50 years ago at the beach.
But I thought, hell, who cares?IMO, depersonalisation can be aggravated by inappropriate drug use.
Or perhaps can be an unsettling awareness of our seperateness, and therefore our vulnerability.
What's it that Iago says? "I am not what I am"?
Is that relevant? No idea.
I do think that having the right circumstances you can learn from and relate to is critical.
Posted by Honore on July 5, 2007, at 10:06:28
In reply to Us and them, posted by Sigismund on July 5, 2007, at 0:20:57
Declan,--- get away from the chainsaw. Why turn into a "bloke"? You're much better the way you are. And those things are dangerous. They make hair grow on your hands, and you develop muscles in all sorts of odd places, and pretty soon your voice gets deeper and you want to lie on the couch all weekend with your beer and football.
Please go read a book, check out the latest art film-- anything but the chainsaw! (I'll even finish Hope against Hope and discuss it with you, if it'll help. I left off about half way through-- finishing wouldn't be hard. I'm happy to make the sacrifice.)
Honore
Posted by Honore on July 5, 2007, at 10:13:18
In reply to Re: Preaching to the choir sister! » Nathan_Arizona, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 4, 2007, at 10:36:52
In this week's New Yorker? Cause I'm reading for you. I'm thinking-- Llurpsie can tell me more about this-- and make a few listening suggestion.
Maybe you'd like to check it out-- it won't take long to read, but you might enjoy it. I often find the prospect of a good thing to read takes the edge off anxiety or panic.
Plus I sometimes carry the New Yorker around like armor, to protect me from other people. It works.
Honore
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 5, 2007, at 10:58:12
In reply to Us and them, posted by Sigismund on July 5, 2007, at 0:20:57
> We seem to have this idea that we shouldn't be frightened.
> I'm not so sure.
> The feeling of safety, IMO, is an illusion, although it could be argued that the feeling of threat is too.All things in moderation. That feeling of appropriate response to appropriate threat is kind of out of whack in my case. The conflict in my mind of "nothing worth being afraid of" and sympathetic nervous system and amydala saying "very very scary, get the F*ck out of here". There's a very good case for being afraid in some circumstances, but other times its unproductive and maladaptive.
I have this sense that things weren't always this way. Maybe life has presented more threats than usual. Maybe my rational mind is finally getting the message "nothing to be afraid of". Both scenarios cause more conflict in my person.
>
> I've just finished a 3 day training course in how to use a chain saw.
> Thirteen Australian men revving their chainsaws.o my
> After the first day I felt really sick.
> When I told the people at the station I was going to do the course they were pleased
> 'That's really cool'
> and sceptical
> 'You're not training to be a bloke, are you Declan?'
> This sounded mildly challenging so I immediately agreed.
> So there we are, out chopping up these big trees and I'm trying to remember the procedures, my meds and vitamins, and at the end of the day the other blokes have made a wooden football and a couch and chairs and Godknowswhatelse.
> I made nothing.You made no accidents- that's the most important thing!. I'm sure you can cut a log now. Therefore, you can make firewood, you can cut logs to build a cabin, etc. Lots of useful things can come from learning basic chainsaw stuff. My dad (anti-bloke if you ever met him) had 3 chainsaws, 'cause we lived in the woods. Trees always falling on our house and stuff. And we had firewood every winter. fires are nice. kind of blokey, but domestic at the same time.
> It reminded me of 50 years ago at the beach.
> But I thought, hell, who cares?
>
> IMO, depersonalisation can be aggravated by inappropriate drug use.It got much better when I started on anti-psychotic, and worse again when I switched to geodon. Now at least it's situationally triggered and not some random occurance of my limbs drifting out into the ether...
> Or perhaps can be an unsettling awareness of our seperateness, and therefore our vulnerability.
> What's it that Iago says? "I am not what I am"?
> Is that relevant? No idea.
> I do think that having the right circumstances you can learn from and relate to is critical.I try to learn from all my circumstances. Human minds are experts at making meaning out of all sorts of nonsense. I think stability is key. I'm still trying to feel "at home". In my life I've lived on 3 different continents, but I got really settled living in Chicago for a while. Things were predictable. Here they're not. Little chores to do (I've been waxing furniture, wtf?) ALL over the place, and vigilance for the phone call that means that the truck with my Chicago stuff is going to show up outside my little cottage. Fear that it's not going to fit. Fear that I'll be surrounded by boxes, multiplying boxes, like in the Sorcerer's Apprentice. movers bringing boxes and boxes and boxes until the cottage overflows and one can no longer walk anywhere.
I'm going off on a tangent. Just wanted to make you feel better, by warning you. Scared that people will look in my windows and see my unkemptness at this late hour and peg me for a slob. (keeping in mind that I'm living in snooty neighborhood). Seriously, folks walk around with a wine glass and a poodle in tow, wearing their expensive golf course/sail boat outfits. I've been thinking about "punking up" my look to feel more like the outsider I am. My southern/midwestern accent seems out of place here. etc.
That's all.
You can come build me a log cabin anytime, Sigis. Or just a pile of logs. I'm going camping soon, so they'll come in handy.
adio,
-Ll
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 5, 2007, at 11:03:23
In reply to Re:didja see the article about Sibelius? » LlurpsieNoodle, posted by Honore on July 5, 2007, at 10:13:18
> In this week's New Yorker? Cause I'm reading for you. I'm thinking-- Llurpsie can tell me more about this-- and make a few listening suggestion.
>Sibelius symphonies 1 and 2 are both very good and very popular. I like them all. I bought a boxed set about 10 years ago and played them a LOT my sophomore year in college. The violin concerto is very virtuosic and lovely. muscular. If you had to get a recording of it, maybe Maxim Vengerov-- he's pretty fierce.
> Maybe you'd like to check it out-- it won't take long to read, but you might enjoy it. I often find the prospect of a good thing to read takes the edge off anxiety or panic.
>
I'd need to get my hands on a copy is it from August issue? I used to read the new yorker in my pdoc's office. I'd read a page every week and before I knew it I'd be through an article. (and feeling smug)> Plus I sometimes carry the New Yorker around like armor, to protect me from other people. It works.
>
> HonoreThat's what the iPOD is for. And some raisin colored eyeliner.
toodles,
--Ll
Posted by Sigismund on July 5, 2007, at 15:16:09
In reply to Us and them, posted by Sigismund on July 5, 2007, at 0:20:57
There was a kid I knew who went up north and stayed in a Youth Hostels place looking for work in a strange city.
He had a couple of tabs of acid that had been through the wash.
He settled into a dorm in the afternoon and thought, 'What the hell, I'll just take it, it won't work anyway.'
He goes to sleep and wakes up tripping with a room full of strangers around him.
He makes a couple of phone calls in one of which he says 'I was talking to them and saying all this sh*t, and they were looking at me really funny, so I just said 'O man, I'm on drugs, hey' and got out of there.'Now that's my idea of social skills.
If ever you feel you're in a sticky situation.....
This is the end of the thread.
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