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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on January 8, 2009, at 14:10:56
Not sure if anyone believes this saying... but I think it's a load of cr##!!:
>> "Kids get over things better than adults, they are resilient".<<
argh-- doesn't that just make your blood boil!! argh!!!!!
If kids were so resilient... therapist's wouldn't be out there in huge numbers, trying to help adults that had less than favorable childhoods.(just because kids don't show the trauma immediately after-- adults think they aren't hurt by it)
resilient- my foot!!!!
kids are fragile, they are molded by their environment and their earliest relationships-- ie-- parents and siblings. They are helpless and dependent..... they also have hard working memories.
I don't think kids "get over" upsets-- they just stuff it away until they get older-- then --- *boom*-- like an a-bomb, it leaves victims in it's wake.
please-- please-- I wish people would understand that kids ARE NOT resilient. I wish people would quit saying such lies... such ignorant lies......
I wish kids to be treated like the precious treasures that they are, with kindness, compassion and love-- with the understanding that they are learning from situations.
this is something that has been stewing in me for quite some time.... now-(with the help from my T.) it was time for me to get it out.... hope you all don't mind.
flutterby-mandy
Posted by Partlycloudy on January 8, 2009, at 14:17:03
In reply to What a load of cr##.........!!!, posted by fleeting flutterby on January 8, 2009, at 14:10:56
I agree. I'm a grown up poster child.
pc
Posted by sassyfrancesca on January 8, 2009, at 15:06:08
In reply to Re: What a load of cr##.........!!! » fleeting flutterby, posted by Partlycloudy on January 8, 2009, at 14:17:03
I also, totally agree.....I am another poster-child......Who made that statement?
Ignorance is NOT bliss; when people make stupid statements like that, I usually tell them what I think....in a nice way; but they hear my passion.
Hugs, Sassy
There is a saying your parent(s) did the best (?) they could, but ran over you with a truck.
I had a single mother who was emotionally and physically violent. Yes, I WAS resilient...I joined the army, but of course you don't get over somethings in life; you just make them quiet down as much as possible so you can live.....life.
Posted by seldomseen on January 8, 2009, at 17:52:24
In reply to What a load of cr##.........!!!, posted by fleeting flutterby on January 8, 2009, at 14:10:56
well, yes and no.
No, that kids get over things quicker than adults. They may not always express it, but trauma is long lasting and earth shattering.
Yes, I do think kids are resilient in that they will find ways to survive & cope (no matter how maladaptive they may be) just about any situation - no matter how bad.
I look back on my childhood, and yeah - I was one hell of a resilient kid.
But I get at what your saying. People use the resilience of children to get away with a lot of stuff - and that, I believe, is a big fat load of crap.
I with you sister.
Posted by raisinb on January 8, 2009, at 18:00:12
In reply to What a load of cr##.........!!!, posted by fleeting flutterby on January 8, 2009, at 14:10:56
Oh yeah, I have to agree with you there!! Sounds like a self-serving rationalization from people who are currently practicing crappy parenting.
People in general are resilient. But we carry our traumas with us, sometimes forever.
Glad you are getting stuff out. Way better than stewing!
Posted by fleeting flutterby on January 8, 2009, at 20:21:15
In reply to Re: What a load of cr##.........!!! » Partlycloudy, posted by sassyfrancesca on January 8, 2009, at 15:06:08
Sorry Partlycloudy that you also are a poster child. :o(
and you too Sassy. :o(
as to who made that statement-- a lot of people do. My family for one, and I hear it on movies and from many people. Not that I'm doubting your resilience Sassy,-- just-- wondering..... do you think you would have made better choices as an adult had you not suffered abuse as a child?.... it's just.... people think resilience makes things all better.... and that IMO-- is not how I see it.
thanks for your replies Partlycloudy and Sassy.
flutterby-mandy
Posted by fleeting flutterby on January 8, 2009, at 20:25:44
In reply to Re: What a load of cr##.........!!! » fleeting flutterby, posted by seldomseen on January 8, 2009, at 17:52:24
> I look back on my childhood, and yeah - I was one hell of a resilient kid.<<
--------- I'm sorry that you were put in a place that you had to be. :o( me too.
> But I get at what your saying. People use the resilience of children to get away with a lot of stuff - and that, I believe, is a big fat load of crap.
>
> I with you sister.<<<
-----YES!!!!! that is it!!! that's exactly what I mean. thank you for understanding! thank you.flutterby-mandy
Posted by fleeting flutterby on January 8, 2009, at 20:32:13
In reply to Re: What a load of cr##.........!!! » fleeting flutterby, posted by raisinb on January 8, 2009, at 18:00:12
> Oh yeah, I have to agree with you there!! Sounds like a self-serving rationalization from people who are currently practicing crappy parenting.<<
-----Yeah, it does, doesn't it.
>
> People in general are resilient. But we carry our traumas with us, sometimes forever.<<-----Exactly!! no matter what our age is.
> Glad you are getting stuff out. Way better than stewing!<<----- thanks. :o)
getting stuff out is a bit frightening but frankly, I'm quite tired of the "bubbling steam"... that no one hears or notices when stewing. My T. is helping me to realize that I too have a voice and am just as worthy as anyone to be heard.
My T. -- she's so wonderful. (but too afraid to let her know that-- as then things could turn all bad)thanks raisinb!
flutterby-mandy
Posted by DAisym on January 8, 2009, at 22:18:38
In reply to Re: What a load of cr##.........!!! » raisinb, posted by fleeting flutterby on January 8, 2009, at 20:32:13
One of the things we hear all the time is, "she is just a baby, she won't remember dad hitting mom, or vice-versa." I'm always shocked by how people think about what kids know or how they handle things.
But - I have to disagree with the relient part. I think kids are amazingly resilient - they figure ways to get their needs met, and believe it or not, mostly they figure it out in non-self-destructive ways. I'm not talking about severe neglect and abuse but the stats are 1 in 6 girls will be molested before they are 20 and most of them have fairly normal lives. What seems to matter most is the "after." What happened after a traumatic experience? Did they get to talk about it? Did they feel protected and cared for? Did it happen over and over again - like certain painful medical procedures? And a big one - how much control did they have after? Kids who were allowed to set boundaries and were helped to self-regulate do much better.
Sorry to get all academia here. It is such an important topic about dismissing our own behavior because "they are just kids." But I don't want to not acknowledge how amazing kids are either.
I'm glad you got it out. What's next from your stream?
Posted by Wittgensteinz on January 9, 2009, at 4:57:51
In reply to Re: What a load of cr##.........!!!, posted by DAisym on January 8, 2009, at 22:18:38
Are kids resilient? Yes, I think they are.
Do they get over things better than adults? I think that's a poor question - what is experienced from a child's point of you will necessarily be very different from the same 'thing' experienced by an adult (and how an adult might experience something will likely rest upon his/her own childhood experiences). Children are vulnerable and impressionable in a way that adults are not - to negate the weight of the effects of childhood trauma by saying "they get over it" is just ignorant. We all know that. A child is an adult in the making. Those things that happen during childhood stay with that person into adulthood. As a fully-formed adult, we always have our past-experiences, our psychological 'foundations' to fall back on in the face of trauma. Children don't have that, especially if trauma is all they've known. I think that's the difference - that children don't necessarily have anything to fall back on. And it's when bad things are taken as 'normal' that a person's very being is damaged - i.e. a child reasoning "bad things happen to me because I am bad". An adult probably wouldn't reach this reasoning unless they'd carried this on from childhood.I can think of contexts where the statement is true, however - take a child and an adult recovering from a broken leg. The child will likely get better quicker. Their bones heal faster, they tend to bounce back quicker. That doesn't mean the psychological effects of receiving an injury will heal more easily.
I think if people take this statement too much to heart, they might use it as an excuse to waiver culpability "it doesn't matter, he won't remember it" or "it won't affect him when he's older" - I've heard these things said in relation to the practice of some medical procedures in very young babies without anesthetic. Circumcision for example. I think people have to be very careful before making such assumptions.
Witti
Posted by fleeting flutterby on January 10, 2009, at 11:51:23
In reply to Re: What a load of cr##.........!!!, posted by DAisym on January 8, 2009, at 22:18:38
> One of the things we hear all the time is, "she is just a baby, she won't remember dad hitting mom, or vice-versa." I'm always shocked by how people think about what kids know or how they handle things.<<
----Yea, me too. :o(
> But - I have to disagree with the relient part. I think kids are amazingly resilient - they figure ways to get their needs met, and believe it or not, mostly they figure it out in non-self-destructive ways.<<------- I'm not sure they actually "get" their needs met in some cases- they just stuff the abuse/neglect away and figure they aren't as worthy as others.... I'm not so sure that is being resilient..??.....
>> I'm not talking about severe neglect and abuse<<-----Oh, I understand now.
>>but the stats are 1 in 6 girls will be molested before they are 20 and most of them have fairly normal lives. What seems to matter most is the "after." What happened after a traumatic experience? Did they get to talk about it? Did they feel protected and cared for? Did it happen over and over again - like certain painful medical procedures? And a big one - how much control did they have after? Kids who were allowed to set boundaries and were helped to self-regulate do much better.<<
----- Oh what you said here is HUGE!!! That's it!! did they feel heard.... did they get to set boundaries..... all that, Yes!
> Sorry to get all academia here. It is such an important topic about dismissing our own behavior because "they are just kids." But I don't want to not acknowledge how amazing kids are either.<<---- oh yes kids are amazing-- but, they DO NOT heal themselves and just get over stuff on their own. think that's why I have such an issue with people saying kids are resilient-- they are only as resilient as the family helps them to be.(IMO)
> I'm glad you got it out. What's next from your stream?<<Thanks! I'm glad too. :o)
oh boy-- what's next?.... I have so much pent up steam.. I'm just beginning!!.... I just have to find the words within all that steam..... which is what I'm working on.
thank you for your reply-- it feels so nice to have all of you "hear" me..... so nice.....
fluttery-mandy
Posted by fleeting flutterby on January 10, 2009, at 12:04:55
In reply to Re: What a load of cr##.........!!!, posted by Wittgensteinz on January 9, 2009, at 4:57:51
>>what is experienced from a child's point of you will necessarily be very different from the same 'thing' experienced by an adult (and how an adult might experience something will likely rest upon his/her own childhood experiences). Children are vulnerable and impressionable in a way that adults are not - to negate the weight of the effects of childhood trauma by saying "they get over it" is just ignorant.<<
------ YOU are so very wise. I agree with all this!
>> We all know that. A child is an adult in the making. Those things that happen during childhood stay with that person into adulthood.<<
----- If you knew my family, you wouldn't say "We ALL know"-- coz my family doesn't believe that. They think kids are kids and adults are adults and both are separate- therefore what happens to a kid doens't matter when they become an adult-- the slate is washed clean. *rolls eyes*... yea, what a family, huh?
>>As a fully-formed adult, we always have our past-experiences, our psychological 'foundations' to fall back on in the face of trauma. Children don't have that, especially if trauma is all they've known. I think that's the difference - that children don't necessarily have anything to fall back on.<<----- Oh yes, you are so insightful. Like to this day I struggle to know what I should be upset about-- so much was shrugged off when I was a child.... to this day, I truly get confused over when I should defend myself or not.(T. says I have no sense of boundaries... not sure how I get that sense though.....)
>> And it's when bad things are taken as 'normal' that a person's very being is damaged - i.e. a child reasoning "bad things happen to me because I am bad". An adult probably wouldn't reach this reasoning unless they'd carried this on from childhood.<<------ Wow-- it's as if you just looked into my very being.... yikes... kind of freaky!... you sure understand so much.
> I think if people take this statement too much to heart, they might use it as an excuse to waiver culpability "it doesn't matter, he won't remember it" or "it won't affect him when he's older" - I've heard these things said in relation to the practice of some medical procedures in very young babies without anesthetic. Circumcision for example. I think people have to be very careful before making such assumptions.
>
> Witti------ So agree with you. Any human should be treated the very same whether they are 2 days old, 2 years old, 2 decades old or what......
thank you for reply-- you are so insightful.
flutterby-mandy
Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 13:15:20
In reply to Re: What a load of cr##.........!!! » Wittgensteinz, posted by fleeting flutterby on January 10, 2009, at 12:04:55
What about if the child is told they are the cause of all parent illnesses cause they had to be carried up flights of stairs. Or a sick Mother screaming at you so back that she falls to the floor frothing at the mouth and then when ill she has you hold her head over the toilet telling you a blood vessel will burst. And many other scenarios. It seemed as a child that this was normal. Now I know it's not. So what is this called? At T the last one said live in present forget the past? Just wondering. Phillipa
Posted by fleeting flutterby on January 10, 2009, at 13:47:19
In reply to Re: What a load of cr##.........!!!, posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 13:15:20
> What about if the child is told they are the cause of all parent illnesses cause they had to be carried up flights of stairs.<<
----- I would call that installing guilt in a child-- which is abusive-- IMO.
>>Or a sick Mother screaming at you so back that she falls to the floor frothing at the mouth<<
----- this seems like a mother that is WAY ouot of control-- nothing to do with the child.
>> and then when ill she has you hold her head over the toilet telling you a blood vessel will burst. And many other scenarios. It seemed as a child that this was normal. Now I know it's not. So what is this called? At T the last one said live in present forget the past? Just wondering. Phillipa<<
I think all these examples are abuse on a child.... it's not a child's ability to cope with such adult situations.... like was said earlier-- the child doesn't have life expereince to deal with such situations as these you have mentioned.
as far as T. saying to live in the present-- yes we should do that-- however, one must get beyond the past in order to live in a healthy way in the present. One shouldn't constantly dwell in the past-- but often the past has got one stuck and so it must be dealt with in order to move out of it.....
I've been stuck for so long-- I've lost my 20's and 30's to being stuck-- I've not accomplished things-- like I didn't finish school, I haven't a career, can't even stay at a job more than 2 years.... I haven't a single IRL friend... i am still stuck as a 10 or 12 or 14 year old.... just stuck.... and I'm tired of just being.... I realized I wasted so much of my life just milling around.... sheesh.... but to break out of this hold-- I have to face the past to learn to move on.....
at least, that's how it is for me anyway.Not sure how it is for you phillipa ..... but I'm here to help you if I can.
flutterby-mandy
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