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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 33. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 18:19:06
I just don't think I can do this anymore.
I went in today and everything was fine, going well. I was talking about my week, my mom's visit, etc. She asked me "are we going to be able to do this?" I said I don't know, it's so hard. And she agreed. She asked me how it had been when she was gone. I said it had been pretty brutal for a few weeks, and then I'd gotten to a place where I accepted it, and was ambivalent about coming back because I felt like this was my chance to break free.
She said, "I feel like I'm never gonna be as emotionally connected as you are in this relationship." I was very hurt by this, as you can imagine. I closed up immediately and spent the rest of the time (and will spend the rest of this evening) contemplating why she'd said it.
She said she was sorry, she messed up, what could she do to make it right, etc.--and I could see she wasn't trying very hard. I told her, do whatever you want--whatever you do has to come from you, I can't tell you.
She knew it would hurt me and even prefaced it before she said it.
So is she trying to push me into quitting? To be less needy and dependent? I don't understand. I haven't been *that* bad since she came back--I haven't called, I have done the best I can. Have her feelings about the whole thing changed? Why can't she just say that directly?
This is awful. Should I even try to go back?
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 18:21:26
In reply to my therapist ruined my session, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 18:19:06
And I walked out fifteen minutes early. I just started writing the check and left. She said as I was leaving, "I hope you'll give me a chance," but it sure didn't sound like she meant it.
I'm so tired of this. Really, really sick of it.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 6, 2009, at 19:09:14
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 18:21:26
I'm so sorry, Raisin. I have no idea what she's doing and I can imagine how hurt you are. I think whatever you decide, you should have at least one more session to discuss it somehow so that you get some closure if that's what you need.
I've had these moments with my T (and God knows she and I are not at all on the same page right now), but sometimes I completely misunderstand something she says and when I manage to bring it up to her, we work it out.
But I'm sorry. I've had those nights.
((((((((Raisinb)))))))))))
Posted by seldomseen on April 6, 2009, at 19:15:45
In reply to my therapist ruined my session, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 18:19:06
Okay, wow that's a biggee.'
Did she actually say "I feel like I'm never going to be as emotionally connected". For me that is termination-worthy because it implies she is trying but can't or won't.
However, if she said "I'm never going to be as emotionally connected" then that's pretty close, though blunt and harsh, IMO to a statement of fact.
Slightly different versions, but wholly different meanings.
It kind of sounds as though she is just grasping about.
My therapist has told me that the emotional experience of therapy is dramatically different for him than it is for me. I think that's true. It was one of the roughest things to accept for me. What I feel in therapy and about therapy is solely my experience.
But if she indicated she was trying and failing, then I would politely (or not so) terminate.
Seldom.
Posted by antigua3 on April 6, 2009, at 19:40:56
In reply to my therapist ruined my session, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 18:19:06
I think it's awful, too, but I agree that you should go back and discuss it. Perhaps it slipped out in a way she didn't mean it to???? (I'm trying to be charitable here...)
I'm sorry it happened, especially because you really had much more important things to talk about.
antigua
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 20:00:22
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » raisinb, posted by TherapyGirl on April 6, 2009, at 19:09:14
I just don't get it. We've been doing this for four years and she's been totally committed this whole time--and now? Why didn't she just tell me she wasn't coming back?
Thank you for the thoughts and hugs, TG.
I called her to discuss it more. If she doesn't call back, or waits a long time, I guess that'll tell me something.
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 20:03:00
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by seldomseen on April 6, 2009, at 19:15:45
She said the first, Seldom. I don't understand why she is there if she feels that way--and why she called me back in when she came back. I am just really confused right now. After all this time and all we've been through?
She said that we needed to talk about it because "it was the elephant in the room" and that she wasn't trying to push me away, that she wanted to get closer and to talk about how that felt to me. Of course, after that comment, I wasn't about to tell her.
Can I really terminate after all this--after four years and all we've been through? I can't believe it and I wasn't prepared. However, it seems like she gave me a pretty clear signal.
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 20:06:58
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by antigua3 on April 6, 2009, at 19:40:56
Thank you, antigua. It's hard to go back for another session when you feel like the other person doesn't want you to be there (and said so pretty clearly).
Posted by seldomseen on April 6, 2009, at 21:23:15
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » seldomseen, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 20:03:00
Raisin, I would be confused too and more than a little hurt. TO be honest, I don't know what I do.
When I feel like that, usually the place I need to be is back in the therapist office.
It sounds like maybe she IS trying. In your heart, what do you think is going on? What about your brain?
I'm so sorry, keep us posted.
I'll give her a good cyber-whack if you like.
Seldom.
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 21:58:19
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by seldomseen on April 6, 2009, at 21:23:15
Hi Seldom--
After I called, she left me three messages trying to connect. But I've had a couple drinks and a Xanax by now, and I don't want to talk if I'm incoherent. I suppose I also wanted to listen to the messages to see if I could glean anything from that. So she is trying, but...I can't get that comment out of my head, and I suppose I won't anytime soon.My heart says this: oh, she didn't mean what I thought she meant--she can't, not after all the things she said about how much she cares, how much she wants to do this. But then, I'm famous for believing what I want to believe--especially about her--not facing reality. And possibly the meanings of what she said have not really sunk in yet.
My brain: Raisin, you're beating your head against a brick wall. You've always known she doesn't really care that much--why don't you value yourself a little higher than to stay in a relationship so unequal and rejecting. Isn't there a better therapy out there? Why am I selling myself so short? Is this a method of self-hatred or self-punishment, to try and get caring from someone who can't or won't give it? Is all my progress gearing me to the point where I can go find something better? Why don't I have the courage and the self-worth to take that step?
So there's the struggle.
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 22:02:32
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by seldomseen on April 6, 2009, at 21:23:15
I'm also, to tell you the truth, suspicious about why she said this *now*. Can it be that it's too much work for her now that she's back?
There has also been a pattern in the past (she doesn't agree, but I have perceived it)--in any session where I get to her emotionally--she cries, etc. (like the session before today's) she does something to push me away (I believe, because she can't handle it or me).
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2009, at 22:46:48
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » seldomseen, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 22:02:32
This seems totally out of character for her to have said, from all you've said about her.
When someone does something that out of character, I generally do wonder if some miscommunication of some sort has occurred. I doubt she wanted you to leave. She was probably just trying to figure out what she could say.
As ss suggested, could she have been trying (with poor success) to point out that the experience is necessarily different on the other side of the couch? My therapist has also pointed out that the feelings even the fondest of therapists has is different than the feelings a client has. As he says, he is an integral part of my support system. I am not an integral part of his. I can't be. If he felt for me as I feel for him, he couldn't function as a therapist to me.
Maybe she does have some pattern of screwing things up after an emotional session. But I doubt she meant what she said in any but a benign sense, based on what you've told me.
By the way, my brain cell count dropped quite a bit after my son was born. Goodness knows what happened half the time between my brain and my mouth, but I'm reasonably sure that what came out of my lips wasn't at all what started from my brain any number of times.
I know it's hard, but maybe try to find out what she intended to say?
(((Raisinb)))
Therapists!
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 23:40:05
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » raisinb, posted by Dinah on April 6, 2009, at 22:46:48
Well...maybe I have been misrepresenting her and our relationship...just because I wanted to believe so badly that it was strong and real. After all, she has said extremely hurtful, rejecting things before, and I let them go, because I was trying to see things in the greater context of our relationship and other, wonderful things she's said. But perhaps I just wasn't attending to the reality the way I should have. Maybe I just wanted to believe everything would be okay and that I hadn't wasted this huge time and emotional energy, and that my perceptions were so off. How can you say, to the same person, in a space of a few months, "I care about you very much, raisin," and "please call me, if you're struggling," and then "I can't promise you I'll never feel indifferent about this therapy" (a comment from several months ago) and "I'll never feel as emotionally connected as you" ? (Huh? this is why I never leave and never really commit).
I hope you are right, Dinah. Right now I'm sick of the whole thing and I want a therapist who won't be so back and forth. I wish I could find someone who unambivalently wants to be there (which she claims she does, then says things like this). I'm tired.
Your interpretation is the interpretation I'd like to believe. Sure, therapists are never quite as emotionally invested as their clients. That's not something I have trouble accepting--or at least, I recognize I need to. But--she was speaking out of her real, true feelings in that moment (more accurately, her lack of feelings). How do you get beyond that, exactly? And why should I? Is that right for my emotional growth and self-acceptance?
Crap.
Posted by rskontos on April 7, 2009, at 0:34:04
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » seldomseen, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 21:58:19
>>>My brain: Raisin, you're beating your head against a brick wall. You've always known she doesn't really care that much--why don't you value yourself a little higher than to stay in a relationship so unequal and rejecting. Isn't there a better therapy out there? Why am I selling myself so short? Is this a method of self-hatred or self-punishment, to try and get caring from someone who can't or won't give it? Is all my progress gearing me to the point where I can go find something better? Why don't I have the courage and the self-worth to take that step?>>>>
First of all raisin, the above is more about that internal mess-up dialogue we all have. It is the past rearing its ugly head.
I admit if my t said what yours did, I would probably get up and leave and never come back.
I think something else you said in your post to Seldom, really bothered me. It was about her crying. I don't think I would ever feel comfortable with my therapist crying. He is the professional. He needs to be beyond where I am and I don't get the sense she is really in the game.
Now granted babies take a toll especially in the beginning when sleep is a distant memory, but that is frankly her problem.
If she can't be a good therapist right now, she needs to not do harm and I think with the lack of consistency she is.
Please take care of you, tell her how you feel. She needs to be emotionally connected after 4 years, I mean how do you be someone's therapist that long and then make that statement.
I am glad she called but if she hadn't said what she did, she would not have needed to. Maybe she needs to think before she speaks.
Again, I hope I am not off base but she worries me for you. take care of yourself.
Sometimes I hate therapy you know.
rsk
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 8:00:24
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » Dinah, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 23:40:05
> "I can't promise you I'll never feel indifferent about this therapy"
Hard to say without context, tone of voice, etc. But FWIW I can see my therapist saying this, and I can see myself crying. What he would mean is that feelings come and go. At times *I* feel indifferent about this therapy. I'm sure at times he *feels* indifferent. And I'll pick that up and feel hurt. But it doesn't mean he *is* indifferent to me, or to the therapy.
Stuff goes on in his life that affects what I'm "feeling" from him in that room.
There's a great line in that movie Four Seasons with Alan Alda. About marriages being like a wave. Sometimes there are crests, and you look at your spouse and are filled with so much love. Sometimes there are troughs, where you don't much care for your spouse or even might hate them. I think even really good marriages are like that.
Therapy isn't marriage, but depending on context, she might be trying to say something similar. And of course some people are more consistent than others. She may not be consistent enough for you. And she may be being a tad too honest with you.
There are very sad truths in therapy. Mine included. My therapist is honest about those truths. It hurt like h*ll, but I think our relationship is stronger now that I have grown to accept them. I can value what we do have, and only occasionally bang my head against the walls of what it isn't. Although I occasionally do.
She might care enough or she might not. I don't know her or your relationship. She may be saying she has trouble attaching to you as a patient, or she may be trying to explain the inequalities inherent in a therapeutic relationship. That need to be inherent in a therapeutic relationship. But it might be worth sitting down with her and asking her what she means by all those things, without preconceptions.
Frankly, I too find what rsk found worrying worrying. Sure, her hormones may be in disarray. Which could be why she didn't come back earlier. Not because she was spending time in maternal bliss with her infant, but because she couldn't watch the days weather without bursting into tears. That was me. I bawled like a baby at no reason in particular. Is it her problem? Sure. Is she getting help for it? I hope so. It can be a physical, medical issue. But the truth is in a long term therapy relationship, a therapist's stuff is going to interfere sometimes. On the other hand she might always be like this. The multiple phone calls worry me a bit too. My therapist *might* call once if he thought he upset me. He would then leave it up to me. If anything, it worries me that she might care too much to be an adequate therapist, not that she cares too little.
In either case, I think a long term relationship deserves a talk. Does *she* think she might have some stuff going on right now physically/emotionally that might be coming into the room right now? Does she mean she's having trouble attaching the way a therapist does attach to clients? Or that she is explaining that therapists can never be as attached as clients? They can't be of course. Not only because they see a bunch of us every week, but because they have to retain objectivity.
If I look back on my therapeutic relationship, I could see plenty of evidence that he doesn't consider me more than a welcome income stream, although he might care about me very much for that reason alone. Or I might find plenty of evidence that he cares plenty, or even too much. Facts are facts. The conclusions we draw from them are colored by our expectations and fears and how we feel about ourselves.
All of which I'm sure you've already considered. Sorry if I'm being obvious. Sigh. I'm feeling a bit stupid this morning. I'm on my way to the vets with a sick pup.
Posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 10:23:42
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by rskontos on April 7, 2009, at 0:34:04
Hey rsk,
Thank you so much for your words of support. I don't know what to think of my therapist's comment. I suppose I'll talk to her today to get more clarification. I just feel so unprepared after all this time to terminate--it comes as a total shock.My therapist has always had moments of tears in our sessions. A couple of times it was because I was yelling at her, a few it's been that we were just having an intense moment, and she felt caught up and/or sad. It always made me feel better, because it was a sign that she *was* intensely connected to me. But maybe you are right--maybe it's not the best thing for a therapist to do. I don't know.
Posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 10:31:45
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 8:00:24
Hi Dinah--
All of the tough truths you articulated make sense, and are things I've known and struggled with since I started feeling intense transference in this relationship. It makes a difference whether she was trying to talk about those, or whether she was saying things have changed for her.My therapist has always cried in sessions. Well, not always, but there have been ten or twelve times over the four years that she has. I asked her once if she did this often with clients. She said, "No!" which means it's only with me.
She has also always, when I leave her a message, called back three or four times to try and catch me. Their practice uses a voice mail paging system (I don't have her real number), so I guess I assumed she was trying to make up for that. But maybe it is, as you said, worrisome.
I don't know what to think. I am just royally confused. After all we've been through, for her to make a comment like that--I suppose I'm in shock.
Posted by rskontos on April 7, 2009, at 11:13:59
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » Dinah, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 10:31:45
>>>I don't know what to think. I am just royally confused. After all we've been through, for her to make a comment like that--I suppose I'm in shock.>>>>
Which makes her overall behavior puzzling. Why it is puzzling, it is not very therapuetic for you. That is why I am concerned.
Definitely ask her about it. I have found that a direct question to my t is always a great place to get a great session going.
take care my friend and let us know how it goes.
rsk
Posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 11:37:17
In reply to my therapist ruined my session, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 18:19:06
I am still bewildered and my brain feels fuzzy and I feel drained. She'll call back soon and I'm not sure how to gather together what I have to say.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 11:57:32
In reply to any advice on how to start this conversation?, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 11:37:17
"It makes a difference whether she was trying to talk about those, or whether she was saying things have changed for her."
How about asking her if things have changed for her? And if she was talking about the inherent limitations of the therapy relationship or something more personal?
Posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 12:38:16
In reply to Re: any advice on how to start this conversation?, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 11:57:32
She said in one of her messages last night that she had a break between 12-1 today and would try to call me then. She reassured me that she did want to talk, said of course she wanted me to come back, and that she wanted to work through this.
So I've been sitting here for forty minutes twisting with anxiety, and she didn't call.
I am now more crazy bewildered than ever.
Posted by onceupon on April 7, 2009, at 14:07:15
In reply to for goodness' sake, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 12:38:16
Ouch. This really makes me wonder if she's overwhelmed with her personal situation and not able to adequately respond right now. OTOH, you've mentioned some kind of bizarre things she's said in the past, when she wasn't necessarily bogged down with the recent adjustments in her life.
I do think that it's really difficult to evaluate someone else's therapy, and so I try not to haphazardly tell others what they should or shouldn't do in a therapy relationship. I also think that it's really difficult to evaluate our own therapy relationships sometimes. I know I'm not so objective about my relationship with my therapist (obviously). I don't really know where I'm going with all of this - maybe just thinking that consultation (for both of you) with a third party might be helpful.
Most importantly, I'm really sorry this has been your experience. It sounds like it's been wrenching, to say the least.
Posted by Kenya on April 7, 2009, at 15:41:54
In reply to for goodness' sake, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 12:38:16
Hi raisinb,
My therapist does this to me ALL the time. Says she'll call and she doesn't. It makes me really upset. Hang in there, breathe, and realize that it's not personal. It sounds like she's having a hard time prioritizing and getting back into her work. As a therapist (the career she chose), IMO it seems to me like she needs to get her sh** together before she ends up losing you and/or other amazing clients that she has. Good luck with your conversation. You deserve for her to fix this with you.
~ Kenya
Posted by yellowbird01 on April 7, 2009, at 17:42:26
In reply to for goodness' sake, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 12:38:16
I know others have already said this, but I wanted to share it anyway. My very first thought when I read your first post on this thread was "geez, what the heck is going on personally for her T?" My initial thought was that perhaps something in your therapy is hitting a sensitive spot for her and shes reacting out of some need to protect herself.. not from you, but from a topic that is bringing up painful things for her.. and she's reacting to that by pushing you (and therefore the topic) away. I dont know much about what your T has been doing recently but I get that shes been away for a bit... had a baby I think? It could be that it's not actually related to anything happening in the therapy room too.. that it's something happening in her life that she doesnt have a grip on and it's taking over her behavior occasionally. It just sounds like overall she doesnt have a good grip on her own emotions right now, regardless of what is triggering that, and you're one of the victims of her instability right now. I'd be incredibly hurt by what she said too, and even more so when she didnt call back when she said she would. I think she needs to know this. If she isnt able to hear it, then she isnt.. but she needs to hear it anyway. I want to say "thats her problem!" but of course I know it's not that easy and it still hurts terribly. I really wish you the best with this... Please keep us updated.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 18:34:45
In reply to for goodness' sake, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 12:38:16
Ugh. My therapist does that, and I *hate* it.
For whatever it's worth, and what it is worth might depend on your feelings about my therapist, I asked him specifically about the two statements you quoted your therapist as saying. He said he'd say both of them to me, and they'd both be true.
I told him that although I was pretty sure he'd endorse the statements, I had the sudden urge to drum my heels on the floor. He smiled sympathetically. But didn't back down.
It did hurt, even now.
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