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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by raisinb on May 28, 2009, at 21:43:59
I walked out after fifteen minutes. Sometimes my therapist gets this totally dead, withdrawn air and seems absolutely indifferent. It makes it worse that we had an amazing session on Monday (my suspicion is that she always gets this way after we have an amazing session--she denies it).
To tell the truth, we've only had a few great sessions since she's been back. Overall I feel like--or I am afraid that--she doesn't care anymore or that she's just less committed.
About an hour and a half after I left, I left her a message saying that I wasn't sure I wanted to come on Monday. That perhaps we both needed a break. Then I said, "to tell the truth, I think *you* need a break. So, if you want to continue, let me know in the future. I'd like to work this out. I'd like you to think about it and decide what you really want to do. Please don't worry about abandoning me at this point--in the long run it will be much less destructive for me than this kind of back and forth. You don't have to call me back right away, if you want to think about it or consult, or whatever. My # is -------. Thanks."
She didn't call me back tonight. Damn. This might be it. Not sure I'm ready at all.
Posted by Neal on May 29, 2009, at 2:34:16
In reply to crappy session today, posted by raisinb on May 28, 2009, at 21:43:59
Pdocs have their ups and downs like all of us. For the money they get, they should strive to give excellent service. Instead they think they can give a lot of attitude.
I'd start looking for a new Pdoc. I've often thought that Pdocs get burned out by their patients. They get bored with their symptoms and with their complaints sometimes, just like we get bored with them.
Posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 5:41:50
In reply to Re: crappy session today, posted by Neal on May 29, 2009, at 2:34:16
> I've often thought that Pdocs get burned out by their patients. They get bored with their symptoms and with their complaints sometimes, just like we get bored with them.
What keeps proctologists going, then? I guess the end justifies the means.
:-)
It is quite possible that this doctor had a bad day, as was suggested. I don't think it helps to leave so early in a session, though. If there is dead air in the beginning, you never know what can come of things as time passes. Perhaps you can ask your doctor, "What should we work on today? My mind is blank."
In the middle of a session, if you suspect a lack of interest on the part of your doctor, perhaps you can ask him if the two of you are in sync that day.
I like to have an idea of something to work on if nothing else materializes. However, much can be hidden from you that can be seen by a professional. Often, things become visible to the both of you for the first time during an otherwise light conversation. It is a good strategy sometimes to drift a little at first. I like to be guided by the therapist, too. It really is a group effort.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 6:47:58
In reply to crappy session today, posted by raisinb on May 28, 2009, at 21:43:59
It sounds as if she's not at her best since she came back. It's funny. We don't want them to not come back just because they're not at their best, but when they come back, we sort of wish they hadn't.
It's hard to have a baby in the house. Exhausting at times. Or maybe her hormones are still out of whack.
As you know, I've gone through my therapist really trying to be real and present, and failing. I think in a long term therapy relationship that happens from time to time. If it happened in a short term therapy relationship it would be easy enough to walk away or look for another therapist and write this one off. With a long term therapist, it's harder.
In the circumstances you describe, where I'd told my therapist he could take his time about calling me, my experience is there's a good chance he would have waited to call. I'm not sure if it would give me time to cool off, or him time to cool off, or what. But I don't know that it means she is planning to tell you she doesn't want to see you again - especially if you had a good session just a few days ago.
How open is your therapist about talking of her own difficulties in being present as a therapist? It's hard to communicate with our therapists at that time. To tell them how angry and hurt and frustrated we can be. Walking out is a way to do that, and I've done it, certainly. Unfortunately with my therapist, he will definitely understand that I'm angry, but his track record of figuring out exactly *why* is poor. I try to resist the urge to communicate by actions, and instead to communicate with words. To fight for the relationship openly. Not necessarily to plan out what I want to say, but to open myself to whatever feelings I'm having at the moment, and communicating them to him.
Of course, it only works because he's willing to do that. He's willing to own up to the fact that he might not be present, or at his best. He's willing to see how that's affecting me and work with me.
I told him last time that I'd rather quit going and have him not present with me than go into sessions and have him not present with me. And I meant it. But we were able to work it out so that he struggled to be present and I struggled to let him be a mess for a while. It resolved itself relatively quickly that time. But it took vulnerability and openness on both our parts.
And it sadly did take an ultimatum on my side for him to put aside his delusion that he was just fine and I was the only client complaining. That he was hiding the effects of his personal life just fine from his clients. I really did mean the ultimatum. I didn't think I could go through another long period where he wasn't really present.
In all likelihood she's not herself right now. And might not consistently be at her best for a while. It might well be best for you to stay away until she doesn't feel so scarily lacking in presence. But I think it's worth one or two angry sessions to reach for connection and fight for relationship. Or fight *to* relationship as I often say.
Posted by antigua3 on May 29, 2009, at 7:36:52
In reply to crappy session today, posted by raisinb on May 28, 2009, at 21:43:59
A rant...
With all due respect, I'm getting really tired of hearing of Ts and pdocs who aren't "present" in session. I mean, we PAY for their time; they should be at their best as much as possible. I would lose my job if I didn't perform consistently, so why do we feel we have to be so gentle with them? Always figuring it out if it's us or them, when we feel fairly confident it's them? I get really annoyed when I walk out of a session with my pdoc, knowing the exorbitant rate I pay for his time, angry that we didn't connect, discuss, etc. because he was tired, out of sorts, etc. "Everyone has a bad day," he says, but as a professional, I know I have to put my personal issues aside when I work.
OK, rant over.
antigua
Posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 9:10:27
In reply to Re: crappy session today » raisinb, posted by antigua3 on May 29, 2009, at 7:36:52
I think it's the nature of the job.
Last time, my therapist was alert, attentive, and in every way a consummate professional - probably more than when he's his normal self.
And I hated it with every fiber of my being. He stopped just below the surface, I couldn't feel any deeper than that.
I'd rather he be a horrible therapist who is present than a perfect one who isn't.
But you can't just fake that for the job.
Posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 9:26:19
In reply to Re: crappy session today » raisinb, posted by antigua3 on May 29, 2009, at 7:36:52
I'm sick of it too. I am a teacher with a personal life that can be intensely painful and draining. But every time I'm in that classroom I give it my all. Sometimes I'm sick, so I'm a little quieter. But I tell my students that and put them in groups to work on what we'd normally work on in class.
Bottom line is, I don't feel that it's right or helpful to let personal issues impact the vulnerable human beings who are in your care. If I can keep from doing that with all I'm going through, why can't she?
Posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 9:35:06
In reply to Re: crappy session today » raisinb, posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 6:47:58
Hi Dinah,
I think the main problem is she won't acknowledge it except to say she might be tired sometimes or not feeling good. But I don't quite buy that. And sometimes, she'll struggle to be more present. Sometimes, she's completely shut down. Therapy then is trying to get water out of a stone.
I have in the past identified a pattern where we have a really intense, connected session, and then the next time, she turns into that stone. I have gone over and over in my head, a thousand times, what I could have done or said to make her do that. And I just don't know. These aren't session where we have fights, I don't express any intense or inappropriate feelings towards her, and I'm not intensely needy.
On Tuesday, when we had our good session, I said a lot of things about the gulf between us and our experiences, and how that hindered the connected. I don't think I said it in a nasty way, though. I just told her that it was clear that there were people in the world who had been broken in certain ways, early on. And that sometimes they are struggling with that brokenness all their lives, but that sometimes they take those wounds and make a self that is richer, more complex, more true than if they'd never been broken in the first place.
I told her it was clear to me that she wasn't one of those people. Not that she hadn't struggled, but that I could sense beyond a doubt that she did not understand the kind of lack of love and emotional abuse that produces a broken self--that she clearly had not experienced it.
At the end, she said, "I hope your impression of me is a work in progress." I smiled and said, "it is."
I really don't think there's anything wrong with saying all that stuff. What do you guys think?
I asked her yesterday when she was totally shut down if she was angry or upset with me because of something I'd said in the previous session. She said no. But nothing she said yesterday sounded sincere. So I am left guessing.
Posted by antigua3 on May 29, 2009, at 11:57:44
In reply to Re: crappy session today » Dinah, posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 9:35:06
Wow, I'm really impressed that you said those things to her. I feel the same way about my pdoc sometimes--that he just doesn't "get" it and no matter how much I talk, unless he gains more experience with patients such as me (that's pure projection on my part, that he doesn't have the experience; he claims to have it), he will never understand me. It makes me want to push him so hard, and that's not a safe place to be.
My T has the experience, and that makes a huge difference because I really feel like she understands, or she goes miles out of her way to "get" it if I think she doesn't. Her understanding what I bring to the room--the anguish, suffering and pain--is wonderful.
Part of it is not knowing the lives of our therapists. My pdoc may have real-world experiences that mirror mine, but I will never know. He did say once that he really did understand my suffering and he said it in a way that made me think he had been through something tough, although not what I've been through.
It's a huge issue, I think, and you did a great job articulating how you (and me!) often feel.
One last thing. My pdoc has always said that an intense session is usually followed by a lesser one. It's a way for us to re-connect after the intensity, he says. But I often feel like, "Well, let's keep going and not waste our time on chit chat." But he says it's important, and that sometimes the after sessions bring up the feelings for the next round of intensity. I don't know if he's right or not.
antigua
Posted by Phillipa on May 29, 2009, at 13:13:36
In reply to Re: crappy session today » raisinb, posted by antigua3 on May 29, 2009, at 11:57:44
As a side note when Rn watched a patient die pasted smile on face on to the others. Sad but it's the job so feel like you do I did it if she wants to work at least pretend. Phillipa
Posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 13:39:53
In reply to Re: crappy session today » Dinah, posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 9:35:06
How long do I wait before I call her again? Or do I?
Any advice would be appreciated. I am really struggling now. I just told my pdoc that I was having suicidal thoughts--when she asked me, I realized I'm pretty close to that place.
Posted by antigua3 on May 29, 2009, at 14:17:09
In reply to she still hasn't called back, posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 13:39:53
Call her NOW and leave a message telling her how badly you feel and that you really need to talk to her.
antigua
Posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 14:43:09
In reply to Re: she still hasn't called back » raisinb, posted by antigua3 on May 29, 2009, at 14:17:09
"Hi raisin, this is [Dr. I don't give a crap about you.] I got your message last night. Sorry I couldn't call you back. I was confused about your message, because I couldn't tell if you wanted to take a break, or if you thought I wanted to take a break. It sounded more like you thought I wanted to take a break. And that's not what I want, I want to continue, that's why I said see you on Monday. If you want to take a break, I understand, but that's not my goal, that's not what I would like to do. So, if I don't hear from you I'll assume that everything's fine, and I'll see you on Monday, unless I hear differently. Hope to see you then."
Um--so what do I do?
a) why the heck did she take so long to call me back if that's all she was going to say? She has never taken that long before.
b) What do I do with this huge discrepancy between what she is in the room and what she says? On Thursday, she clearly DID NOT want to be there and WAS NOT happy to see me. She was *icy.* Yet when I asked her if she was angry, she denied it. Then she turned it back on me, asking how I felt about being there. I said, "I want to go. When I'm in a room with someone who doesn't want to be here with me, it's not helpful for me. It's not good for me." She turned away immediately and wrote me the receipt.
c) And I don't have any hope of getting a full, honest explanation of what her deal was. This has happened over and over again over the years we have seen each other, and I never get any explanation.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 29, 2009, at 16:33:00
In reply to here's the message she left, posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 14:43:09
I wish I had some answers for you, Raisin. I don't know what's going on. Maybe she's exhausted with the new baby?
I sure am sorry you're having to go through this.
(((((((((Raisinb))))))))))
Posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 18:23:00
In reply to here's the message she left, posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 14:43:09
My two cents is that you should call her. It sounds like an answer my therapist would give, and he would mean "I'm confused. I don't understand. That's not what I said." He really would be confused.
If she's anything like my therapist it wouldn't mean that he didn't give a cr*p about me. It would be more that the therapy experience he had in the last session was so different than mine, that he couldn't figure out what I was saying. My therapist does tend to get a bit annoyed at those times, but it doesn't mean he doesn't care.
If you've gone round and round on this many times, it doesn't bode well I guess for a satisfactory conclusion. I like how my therapist validates my experience of a session even if he didn't experience it in the same way. I'm sorry yours doesn't do that.
I'd be angry too, in the same situation. I have been. Because it would be so clear to me, and it may even be clear to him in six months or a year, but it is rarely clear to him at the time.
About the only thing I can suggest is that perhaps you are reading what you see as iciness as meaning she doesn't want to be there with her, but she might be thinking and feeling something radically different. It seems odd to me that she would genuinely not want to be with you so soon after a session that was wonderful. So that when you said that, she didn't really understand what you were saying.
Is it possible for you to discuss it with her in totally factual terms? Instead of saying something about her not wanting to be there with you, discuss it in terms of what she's literally doing that leads you to feel like she doesn't want to be there? What does icy look like?
I know those things are not easy to explain. Last time it took me some time to explain why I was upset that he was attentive and professional, since it was all a matter of the fuzzier aspects of perception.
When she's icy, does she fold her arms? Not smile? Use different terminology?
Can you break it down into its component parts and discuss those things with her? Point out what precisely she'd doing that is different and tell her what you interpret those things as meaning? When you assign meaning to them, and comment to her on the meaning you assign, she might not really understand. But if you talk about the factual things that lead up to your interpretation, that's usually easier to reach agreement on.
Posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 20:20:07
In reply to Re: here's the message she left » raisinb, posted by TherapyGirl on May 29, 2009, at 16:33:00
Thank you for the hugs TG :). I don't know either. She wasn't this way with her first baby.
Posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 20:25:53
In reply to Re: here's the message she left » raisinb, posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 18:23:00
"It seems odd to me that she would genuinely not want to be with you so soon after a session that was wonderful."
That's the problem. This is a common pattern for us. We have an intense connection one session--where she's warm and caring--then the next one she turns into a block of ice. It's mind-boggling. My sneaking suspicion is that she cannot handle the connection with me and the feelings it brings up in her, so she freaks out and withdraws the next time. I could be wrong.
The factual stuff is a good idea. I'll try it.
I'll be f**ked if I call her, though. After so much rejection, my self-respect would take a serious blow if I did that. Not to mention I think "I'll assume everything is fine" is absurd under the circumstances. I am considering just not showing on Monday. What she does or doesn't assume is not my problem, and assuming that things are "fine" is either her being completely asinine or disturbingly dishonest.
Posted by obsidian on May 29, 2009, at 22:42:26
In reply to Re: here's the message she left » Dinah, posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 20:25:53
hi, I know I'm coming late to this conversation. I'm sorry you're having such a rough time with your T raisin.
what would you hope that she did? can you tell her that?
I don't like that turning and writing the receipt thing, seems like there should be some opportunity there...
-sid
Posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 23:09:46
In reply to Re: here's the message she left » Dinah, posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 20:25:53
> I'll be f**ked if I call her, though. After so much rejection, my self-respect would take a serious blow if I did that.
If I'd had that kind of exchange with my therapist, and called him back, would you think less of me? I don't think you should respect yourself less no matter what you do. Both are perfectly valid choices. I think it's easy to judge ourselves more harshly than we judge others. I know I beat myself up sometimes over things that wouldn't bother me in the slightest in someone else. It's ok to call. You left a message. She totally missed the point. You're angry. Calling or not calling are both ok. Whatever choice you make from this point is a form of communication with your therapist. It's your call which one would be most satisfying, or communicate most effectively what you wish to say in a way she'll understand.
> Not to mention I think "I'll assume everything is fine" is absurd under the circumstances. I am considering just not showing on Monday. What she does or doesn't assume is not my problem, and assuming that things are "fine" is either her being completely asinine or disturbingly dishonest.
Yeah, they are shockingly oblivious at times. If you don't show up on Monday, do you think that she'll understand why? What reaction would you want or expect from her?
What would happen if you called her, or told her Monday, that saying things are fine is completely *sinine? That you are angry that she would say that when, if things were fine, you would hardly have left the message you left. Would she take that badly?
Mind you, I'm the person who telephoned my therapist, informed him that he was a sh*t faced b*st*rd, and hung up the phone. Sigh. He still finds that both amusing and a clinically important step of expressing anger toward him directly.
Perhaps not all therapists are as delighted with client direct expressions of anger.
I guess there are a lot of layers to the dilemma. Whether you wish to continue the relationship, what you think would be the best way to continue it if you wish to, or the best way to gain the distance to end it if you wish that. And those are just the pragmatic issues. The emotional issues are even more complex. It does emotionally make a difference whether she chooses to make an effort to come after you, or if she just holds the door open for you to return to her. Either one could be caring, but there is a different power differential to each.
A lot to consider.
(But then I probably consider way too much in relationships. I'm hopelessly pragmatic, so this may all be a bit too cold blooded to be helpful.)
Posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 23:49:24
In reply to Re: here's the message she left » raisinb, posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 23:09:46
I'm sorry. :(
As I explained in my post to Annierose, I had such a horrible day today that I'm probably even more cold and analytical than usual. I apologize to you as well if I'm coming across too much like that.
Posted by raisinb on May 30, 2009, at 10:42:52
In reply to Re: here's the message she left » raisinb, posted by obsidian on May 29, 2009, at 22:42:26
Yeah, she didn't try real hard. P**ed me off.
Posted by raisinb on May 30, 2009, at 10:47:07
In reply to Re: here's the message she left, posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 23:49:24
Don't apologize, Dinah! You're not being cold-blooded and your analysis was completely helpful.
Of course I wouldn't think less of you for calling your therapist in such a situation. Maybe it isn't self-respect. Maybe it's boundaries. I have a deep conviction somewhere about how much I am willing to do in a relationship and how much the other person should do. I think it should overall be equal. Right now, I've done enough work to try and be connected to someone who isn't that interested or motivated (at the moment) to be connected to me.
As for what she understands, I've said how I feel about this issue about a thousand times. If she doesn't understand now, it's because she refuses, and there's nothing I can do about that.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on June 1, 2009, at 0:48:23
In reply to here's the message she left, posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 14:43:09
I, too, am coming to this thread very late. (Been out of town.) The feelings you are describing are so close to what I have been experiencing this past couple of weeks I hardly think I should write. Could say something that's too much about me that might miss *you* and you have had enough of that!
I'll just say that feeling like your T doesn't get you, isn't focused, doesn't care, etc. is just excruciating! I am so sorry this is happening.
I will risk saying one thing (OK, maybe two). Is it possible, even a little possible, that when you experience these cycles of having a "good" session and then having one that feels disconnected that it might be you pulling back from her? (In which case I would want for her to notice that and help bring you back.) It sounds like you have already really looked at this one, but it's just a thought.
I will also share this. I recently tried to quit therapy cause I was too angry with her, not getting enough I felt, and just in too much pain to handle it all. I felt like she would have just let me walk too. Why didn't she stop me? In a series of bad phone messages where she claims I continued to experience miscommunication, she ultimately told me she was "confused." Basically she was seeing me sending two messages - one that I wanted to quit and one that I needed more of her. DUH!!!!!!!!!!!! HEEEELLLLOOOOO?????? I am not at all trained as a therapist and I would have seen this one clearly. She said, however, that she does have to respect me. She can't make me go or stay or anything. I was just so mad that she didn't see through my "wanting to quit." Couldn't she have just saved me from myself if she really cared about me at all???????? I finally wrote to her in between a bad session and the next one where I thought I might not go. I said in there (feeling as small and pathetic as you can imagine) that I had been lying when I said I wanted to quit. That actually, if I say that it means I am hurting my absolute worst and that I need her beyond words. (Again, I wanted to say DUHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!) But it did make a huge difference between us once I survived what I felt was shame for needing her so much.
OK, truth is that I haven't at all recovered from that shame yet and I'm kind of in the middle of it. But at least I feel like she is with me now.
Hope that story helps in some way maybe, and doesn't simply annoy.
I'm sure thinking of you right now. I hope you can somehow work through this one way or another.
((((((((((raisinb)))))))))))
Posted by TherapyGirl on June 2, 2009, at 12:08:55
In reply to here's the message she left, posted by raisinb on May 29, 2009, at 14:43:09
I hope you are okay, Raisin. Let us know what you decided and how it went when you get a chance. I've been thinking about you.
This is the end of the thread.
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