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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Annierose on May 29, 2009, at 21:18:09
I hate when I leave a session wondering what the heck we just spend 45 minutes talking about. And I have had two back to back sessions like that this week. I think my therapist was trying to make a big point but it fell on confused ears. And then I ask myself, Are we on the same page? Does she even know who I am?
When she explains her bigger view intellectually I do understand what she is saying but not how it necessarily applies to me and my current angst. Sometimes I think she attributes feelings to me that are not valid and more and more I tend to think its partly a cultural difference. I come from a big Italian family. I talk with energy, straightforwardness and expression. My therapist is a wholesome, homespun kind of gal that I could never imagine swearing or yelling (in the privacy of her own home).
Looking back on my treatment with her, I eventually come to this lonely confusing place. Something happens in the therapy, I get mad, angry and/or hurt. And she reacts with indifference. Current example: I was especially looking forward to my session on Tuesday. We had a powerful session on Thursday and I felt on surer footing in our work. For over a year I had asked for an earlier time slot on Tuesdays and one never became available. Eventually she asked a client to switch with me which made me feel awkward and indebted (and the time still was not ideal just 45 minutes earlier when I wanted 2 3 hours earlier).
Anyway, I came to my Tuesday appointment and I could hear a client in her office. I couldnt hear words but garbled tones --- but it was a male voice. And the session ran into my time. My t is rarely late so you would think it wouldnt bother me but it did. My watch said she was five minutes late, she said she was two minutes late. Whatever.
I was quiet for the start of my session and she asked if I was able to stay a few minutes later (to make up for her late start). I told her I felt angry that she was late and I noticed that Tuesdays feel problematic for me. Since I started my new Tuesday time slot, she chatted with a man (from the building) who blocked her office door leaving me awkwardly standing by and waiting, once we arrived together in the parking lot (really awkward), and I ran into the switched client after me in the bathroom, etc. etc. --- anyway back to my point my bubble burst when she was late and it was a time I wanted.
I felt she ignored my anger and she explained the following Thursday that when I get angry its a slippery slope and I run with it. She sees it as her job not to defend herself --- blah blah blah --- since ultimately I am responsible for my feelings. This is where our cultural differences come into play. She saw me angry a 10, I felt angry a 5. I felt I was open to work with the anger on Tuesday and I was anxious for her to help me dissipate the yucky feelings. Instead, her quiet disposition increased everything as in It must be me (she told me as much) Im over-reacting (okay I was but help me with that). I feel her quietness as criticism. She says thats not who I am. Im not thinking those critical thoughts but show me otherwise.
Its so frustrating that this small incident has carried into two additional sessions (she added a session today). And I feel no better. Im left to ask is this it? Can I ever work past this impasse that we always get to?
Posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 23:22:02
In reply to Back to the same yucky place, posted by Annierose on May 29, 2009, at 21:18:09
I think you may have hit on an important point. Cultural difference or personality difference, it is true that people react differently to anger. You might be someone who reacts hotly, while she might react coldly. And the difference in style might definitely create friction.
Is she willing to admit this dynamic?
I know it's a valid point, because I'm one who usually gets cooler when I'm angry. It depends on the type of anger of course. But sometimes I definitely get calmer, more rational, more analytical, use larger words, etc. Which can be infuriating I'm sure. Of course, other times I am hotly angry.
Maybe one route around the impasse for both of you is to acknowledge that you are different in this way, and that those differences will drive each of you nuts at times. In accepting that, maybe you could find some positive in the future skirmishes of personality type. A point where you accept each other for who you are. Which is pretty wonderful really, on an emotional level. And not half bad on a therapeutic level either. Since in acknowledging and accepting that different people express anger differently, and interpret expressions of anger differently, you can see how your particular style might influence your interpersonal relationships in general, not just with her. (And she could look at the same thing of course.) With the judgment taken out of it, you could be more compassionate with yourself as well as with her? I find when I accept something about myself, it is oddly enough a bit easier to moderate the trait at times than when I judged myself harshly.
Just an idea. I'm butting heads with my therapist a bit over a different issue, but I'm thinking along those lines of acceptance.
I'm sorry you're in that yucky place. Why is it that we generally do find ourselves in the same yucky place over and over again? Maybe it would be more hopeful if we at least found ourselves in different yucky places?
Posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 23:47:50
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Annierose, posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 23:22:02
Ugh. I'm sorry.
I realized that because today was so traumatic, I'm probably more in my head than usual. :(
Posted by antigua3 on May 30, 2009, at 7:47:10
In reply to Back to the same yucky place, posted by Annierose on May 29, 2009, at 21:18:09
I can certainly relate to what you're talking about. My pdoc and I come from different cultures and sometimes I think that's a problem in our therapy.
But when situations such as you've described are resolved, and the rupture is repaired, this is where real progress can come. I could be all wrong, but for me it's always about trust--the constant testing that's required on both sides of the relationship and coming smack up against the fact that our Ts aren't the perfect human beings we want them to be, or at least that's what I've wanted. In fighting to relationship (thank you, Dinah) sometimes that's where the growth comes. Resolving these conflicts with our Ts are supposed to help us deal better with relationships in our real lives. I say that with skepticism, of course. :)
So go back and talk. Get angry, explode, do whatever you have to do to try and reach her so she understands. If she doesn't, you've given it your best shot and can decide what to do.
I'm sorry about all this. I really am.
antigua
Posted by Annierose on May 30, 2009, at 9:16:14
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Annierose, posted by Dinah on May 29, 2009, at 23:22:02
Dinah -
Your words did not feel harsh. She does admit to a cultural difference (only recently). After posting last night, I was cleaning up my old computer files and I ran across a letter I wrote to her in February (prior to a two week break) where I was talking about this same darn yucky place.
In that discussion she said my anger acts as a defense from her warm feelings towards me ... in that it's easier for me to be angry than receive her warmth. I honestly do not believe that to be true (and have told her as much). My mom lacked emotional warmth, so when my t is quiet, it feels critical and mean --- not warm and fuzzy. As much as I explain that, she doesn't change. Here lies the problem.
Posted by Annierose on May 30, 2009, at 9:19:11
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Annierose, posted by antigua3 on May 30, 2009, at 7:47:10
There are moments of "repair" but it seems more and more there are moments of confusion. I have a hard time deciphering what is me and my issues (what brought me to therapy in the first place) and what is her personality style and/or inability to help me.
It leaves me frustated.
Thank you for understanding.
Posted by Dinah on May 30, 2009, at 9:45:38
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Dinah, posted by Annierose on May 30, 2009, at 9:16:14
> My mom lacked emotional warmth, so when my t is quiet, it feels critical and mean --- not warm and fuzzy. As much as I explain that, she doesn't change. Here lies the problem.
So maybe this is the issue? She won't change. This is who she is. But when she's quiet, she's not being critical and mean, even though she feels critical and mean to you. She's just reacting as who she is. Just as you react in a certain way, and she interprets it in a certain way. But her interpretation is not necessarily correct, and all her pushing you to change won't help you change.
Neither of you will fundamentally change. But what might change is the meaning you assign the other's behavior. So when your therapist is quiet, you can remind yourself that your therapist is not your mother and that she can be warm and loving and quiet because that's her way. And she can accept your anger and recognize that you learned to process anger differently than she did, and she may well be assigning to much weight to your anger. That she's choosing the wrong step in the process as being the point that causes a rupture. Your anger doesn't signify that a rupture has taken place so much as her interpretation of your anger and her response triggers a lot of old feelings in you and that's when the real rupture occurs.
I'm rambling and not sure if I'm making sense.
Posted by Annierose on May 30, 2009, at 10:18:05
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place, posted by Dinah on May 30, 2009, at 9:45:38
No - that's does make sense to me. I'm at work so I'll need to re-read your post a few times to process. Thank you.
Sometimes, as Daisy says, just writing down the feelings helps the sorting process. I feel better already.
Posted by Daisym on May 31, 2009, at 1:21:36
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Dinah, posted by Annierose on May 30, 2009, at 10:18:05
There are two things that I'm wondering about but I'll readily admit to the fact that these are MY issues, so I could be projecting.
I think your therapist's observation that you throw up a wall to protect yourself from her caring might be valid - you are starving but don't trust that the "food" isn't poisoned somehow. The ony way to really know if you are unconsciously doing this is to track what happens after those really good, connective sessions. If you find that this is a pattern - connect then fight - I think that tells you something. And I think it seems prudent to watch and see if it is your therapist's pattern as well. She may react to the closeness as well - by attempting to "teach" right in these moments or make an interpretation that goes no where - she may be intellectualizing instead of emoting, without realizing it. Because after so many years together, if this is the pattern, then she may (unconsciously) be wary and waiting for some kind of push back, which contributes to it. Does any of this make sense? Kind of like we get what we expect because we provoke it. Maybe concretely keeping track of your mood after sessions could shed some light on this.
The other piece is around the quiet responses or silence. Not being seen, or being ignored, pushes big buttons with me. So it makes sense that your anger might be more intense than intended in order to get her attention. She, in turn, shuts down, gets quiet (won't defend herself, as she says) which makes you seek her out even more frantically. Sometimes when there is silence I feel abandoned in it - like I've been psychologically deserted. And that hurts a lot.
All that said, I absolutely agree that different styles interpret behaviors really differently, especially on the intensity scale.
And I couldn't help but wonder, under all of this, if you aren't hurt that an earlier slot on Tuesday came open and she filled it with a new client instead of asking you. This has happened before, right? So you may not really realize it but you might beel dropped or slighted about this.
I'm sorry you are in a yucky place. I hate these spiral issues that we go round and round. It is so painful, each and every time.
Posted by Dinah on May 31, 2009, at 8:45:23
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Annierose, posted by Daisym on May 31, 2009, at 1:21:36
> And I couldn't help but wonder, under all of this, if you aren't hurt that an earlier slot on Tuesday came open and she filled it with a new client instead of asking you. This has happened before, right? So you may not really realize it but you might beel dropped or slighted about this.
If you just feel slighted, Annierose, you're a nicer person than I am. I gave my therapist a tongue lashing for the same thing, and in his style of practice it isn't even as important as I think it is in your therapist's practice. How on earth did she justify that?
Differences in temperament and culture are one thing. Even misunderstandings between therapist and client can be used to the client's benefit since learning about those things in ourselves and others is one of the biggest benefits of therapy. Learning about your patterns and how they influence your relationships with others having their own patterns is immensely helpful even if it causes distress. I credit whatever getting better I've done to that sort of thing.
But being so inconsiderate as to ignore a current client who is in an inconvenient time slot for a potential client is far harder to justify in my possibly biased eyes.
Posted by Annierose on May 31, 2009, at 9:01:02
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Annierose, posted by Daisym on May 31, 2009, at 1:21:36
Daisy -
I just want the spiral to stop. I can't see how this is healthy or even helping me. Her response to my disappointment feels punishing.
>>I think your therapist's observation that you throw up a wall to protect yourself from her caring might be valid - - - She may react to the closeness as well - by attempting to "teach" right in these moments or make an interpretation that goes no where - she may be intellectualizing instead of emoting. Because after so many years together, if this is the pattern, then she may (unconsciously) be wary and waiting for some kind of push back, which contributes to it. Kind of like we get what we expect because we provoke it. <<<<<
The part that especially struck true for me is her intellecutualizing instead of emoting. I want her to "be" with me in the moment --- not on the outside looking in. On Friday she was drawing from my past, and I thought she was going one way with the story and instead went in a very cold direction. In my grade school years, I spent a lot of time in my closet. It was a big closet and I made it my safe zone. I had blankets, a pillow, my favorite stuff in there (complete with flash light). My t brought this up and said "I think you need to build those closet walls up to protect you. So you won't get hurt." (Something like that). I was shocked. "WOW ... you went somewhere with that story that surprises me. I came to therapy to tear those walls down so I won't be alone anymore. This doesn't make any sense. (silence) I thought you were going to say, 'think of my office as your closet ... that this is your safe zone.'" Quite frankly, I forget most of her reply because she had already lost me ... but it contained the phrase "Yes it would be wonderful if you could think of my office as a safe zone ... (and something like) you need to protect yourself so your parent attacks won't penentrate you anymore."
>>>The other piece is around the quiet responses or silence. Not being seen, or being ignored, pushes big buttons with me. So it makes sense that your anger might be more intense than intended in order to get her attention. She, in turn, shuts down, gets quiet (won't defend herself, as she says) which makes you seek her out even more frantically. Sometimes when there is silence I feel abandoned in it - like I've been psychologically deserted. And that hurts a lot. <<<
This is exactly right but she doesn't seem to want to push through to me with words. When I express "I feel abandoned over here," she will say "I'm right here waiting for you." F*ck that. I wish that she would reach out to me, help me to the next stepping stone. Instead I must jump across and trust that she will be waiting. I can feel how your t reaches out for you and just as importantly lets you know he will catch you if you fall. Can your t call my t and tell her it's okay to open up her heart too?
>>>All that said, I absolutely agree that different styles interpret behaviors really differently, especially on the intensity scale.<<
And the funny thing is, I like my t because I can trust that she will never ever ever get angry. It's not that I haven't gotten her upset on occasion, but her calm exterior matches her inner zen as well.
>>>And I couldn't help but wonder, under all of this, if you aren't hurt that an earlier slot on Tuesday came open and she filled it with a new client instead of asking you. This has happened before, right? So you may not really realize it but you might beel dropped or slighted about this. <<<I did bring tell her how having a client in that time slot hurt my feelings. After some hesitation she explained that this was his first appointment, he came significantly late and that appointment time is not a standing appointment time that is available --- she only comes in that early occasionally. She also made the interpretation that it probably reminded me of my mom making special time for my brothers.
This stupid and minor incident has bothered me for a week now. I was convinced last night that I wanted to take a week break to sit back and chill. I woke up feeling better. My feelings sway back and forth.
Why is this so darn hard? and brain consuming?
Posted by Annierose on May 31, 2009, at 12:22:01
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place, posted by Dinah on May 31, 2009, at 8:45:23
Dinah -
How did I miss your reply?
I explained in my post to Daisy that my t explained that she doesn't have a standing appointment time available that morning. I am fairly certain when new clients call for an appointment she tries to see people promptly, knowing how difficult that first phone call is for the person.
The other time Daisy was referring to shows how great her memory is ... because I was trying to think back to that myself. A few years ago my t had asked me to switch an afternoon time to a morning time --- and I'm fairly certain she made some reference to "no longer being available in the afternoon". And she added "beginning January 6th ...blah blah blah" So I said "sounds like you are teaching a class" because it coordinated with a school calendar.
I came to find out a few months later, it was a client's school schedule, not hers. So that really pissed me off because I felt she wasn't straightforward with me regarding the reason.
Since then we had another schedule snafu. She announced in December of '07 that she was trying to get more balance in her life and she was no longer working Fridays. So now her schedule was down to three days a week ... and I see her three days a week. I realized that if I needed to cancel an appointment, there would be little if any recourse.
Sure enough in time, I had to cancel my then "new" Thursday appointment and she offered my old Friday appointment as a replacement --- which I thought was very nice. Until after the appointment I saw the regular Friday girl who had the appointment after me arrive at her office. A few weeks later - another change and again the same regular Friday person arrived. I did confront my therapist on this - and she explained that that client couldn't work out an alternative time and she (my therapist) couldn't abandon her and they were working on finding a new time slot. Whatever. I was not happy.
I must add - that in time - I did perfer my new Thursday time. The Friday client I dubbed the "stalker" client because she would always hang out in this little vestibule directly office my t's office (instead of walking into her waiting room). It creeped me out. So I am happy to be rid of her!!
I'm rambling. I guess no relationship is perfect and our therapists are certainly not perfect. But I wish she was.
Posted by Dinah on May 31, 2009, at 12:42:51
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Dinah, posted by Annierose on May 31, 2009, at 12:22:01
The scheduling stuff would hurt me too. And make me angry. I totally understand. And your therapist's interpretations grounding it in childhood would make me see red. Sometimes we're angry about stuff in the here and now because we have reason to be angry in the here and now.
In fact, your therapist seems to make a lot more interpretations than mine does, and I think that would bug me no end too, unless they were made as suggestions.
Overall, in the larger context, I can see why you aren't in a good spot in therapy right now.
I used to closet sit! Even now, I have a mat down in my closet for if I ever feel the need for that quiet space. I just haven't used it lately. It was nowhere near as cozy as you made yours though. Shouldn't she congratulate you for making a cozy nest for yourself where you could feel safe? I guess there are walls, but there is also the creation of warmth and comfort. And that's pretty cool for a kid to be able to do.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on June 1, 2009, at 1:12:09
In reply to Back to the same yucky place, posted by Annierose on May 29, 2009, at 21:18:09
I'm just coming to this now as I have been out of town for the weekend. Wow, there has been a lot of big feelings posted in the last couple of days that I can relate to.
Anger is the toughest one, isn't it? I hate feeling anger towards my T. Sometimes I do feel she gets defensive. Sometimes she is too quiet. Sometimes I think she jumps too quickly to fix it. She's always encouraging me to feel OK about feeling it - even towards her, but then I feel like she shuts me down with that "critical" silence or too quickly explaining it back to me. Explaining. You describe a lot of explaining from your T. That seems to always bug me for some reason - even when it's a response I thought I wanted to hear. Basically, when I'm angry, I don't think my T can do anything right. And I don't *really* know if she can handle it. She says she can take more, but really?
I don't get how I can be writing her the most loving, mushy, gushy love letter one second and then a f*ck-you letter the next. I only give her the love letters. I feel embarrassed, insecure, and pathetic with my love letters, but the angry ones bring up the *shame*. That's just too much.
*sigh*
I'm sorry about the yucky place. I'm sorry you are in this cycle. It *is* hard. It's all hard.
((((((((((Annierose))))))))))
FMD
Posted by sassyfrancesca on June 1, 2009, at 9:57:10
In reply to Back to the same yucky place, posted by Annierose on May 29, 2009, at 21:18:09
I see that as psychobabble.....SHE is responsible when she is late. Your reaction is normal.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by Annierose on June 1, 2009, at 18:17:37
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Annierose, posted by Dinah on May 31, 2009, at 12:42:51
>>>Shouldn't she congratulate you for making a cozy nest for yourself where you could feel safe?<<
She did like the idea of my closet - I don't think I inferred otherwise. The part of my current conversation that got me upset was that she wants me to recreate that closet in my mind --- so I have a safe place to go to when I feel upset. It makes sense to me now but at the time it felt like she was asking me to build walls around myself - which seems counter-intuitive to therapy.
I specifically asked my therapist to make an interpretation that day. We were at a standstill and I didn't understand (and to a larger extent still do not) the point she was trying to make. So I said "Why don't you tell me you think I'm so angry."
Posted by Annierose on June 1, 2009, at 18:27:51
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Annierose, posted by FindingMyDesire on June 1, 2009, at 1:12:09
Anger is a tough one to get my brain to solve. I do get defensive --- as hard as I try not to. I don't like when people make harsh criticisms of my behavior when inside I'm feeling differently.
Funny example: I live in a cold weather state so a few weeks ago when the soft serve ice cream stand finally opened my son was chomping at the bit to go a few days after it opened. He ordered a chocolate cone. The girl said, "Oh, we don't have chocolate today, only vanilla." I laughed and said to him, "I guess they only have half their selections today ... maybe they should post a sign." And the girl said, "You're harsh." My son laughed and ordered vanilla. I didn't feel harsh. But when a shop only has two flavors and they don't have one of them, I just called them like I see them. I work in retail so that was my mentality. I think she was harsh.
I would love to not be so angry at the little stuff and the big stuff. And understanding why I'm so angry doesn't seem to get me anywhere.
Posted by Annierose on June 1, 2009, at 18:31:36
In reply to Re: Back to the same yucky place » Annierose, posted by sassyfrancesca on June 1, 2009, at 9:57:10
She did hold herself responsible for being late - but she did not hold herself responsible for my reaction. I guess what I see her saying, she is seldom late (maybe once or twice a year --- and I see her 3x a week so that's pretty good) and in the past, I have reacted differently because a minute here or there wasn't a big deal. She wasn't 15 minutes late, she was five minutes.
But that day, it was a big deal to me. I was upset.
This is the end of the thread.
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