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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by blahblahblah on May 26, 2009, at 18:58:36
hey,
So my maternal transference is getting really bad, that i feel my heart is breaking every session. I push her just to get some love from her, which i know rationally isn't what i should be doing. but unfortunately rationality doesn't always come into play in therapy. Last night i asked her how will i know when i can stop therapy. she said that only i will know that. so i responded with "well if you don't care, why should I?". i just want and yearn from something from her. some weeks she seems really warm, others not so much. i have to force myself not to call or message her after sessions. does anyone have any advice on how this will calm down, and how the hell it is helping. because right now i am sick of my heart breaking.
Posted by blahblahblah on May 26, 2009, at 19:05:55
In reply to can't handle the transference, posted by blahblahblah on May 26, 2009, at 18:58:36
oh i forgot to say that I have told my therapist bout the transference, and she explores it with me, but only when I bring it up. We haven't spoken about it for over a month now.
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 26, 2009, at 22:36:54
In reply to can't handle the transference, posted by blahblahblah on May 26, 2009, at 18:58:36
When I started seeing my T four years ago, I felt just as you do. I felt such love for him and yearned for him. He loomed so large in my mind that I thought of him all day and dreamed about him all night. It wasn't romantic or erotic. I wanted him to be my father. I talked to him about this, not all the time, but occasionally when the feelings would just overcome me in session.
I don't know how it went away, but it did. Or at least it got a lot less intense, gradually, over time. It helped that he maintained excellent boundaries and told me repeatedly that the only relationship we would ever have was in therapy. It also helped that he was honest and compassionate and told me that the relationship we had was itself a caring and ongoing relationship; that he wasn't going anywhere and I could continue to see him once a week for as long as I needed to.
That helped me to carry on in therapy, despite the pain and frustration and yearning and heart-breaking sense of loss. Therapists are like parents for people who, like me, didn't have good parents. The relationship, as my T says, is a corrective emotional experience. At the beginning, you feel this childlike adoration for your T, but you grow up in the relationship, gain more independence, incorporate their compassion into your sense of self.
It's a transformative process if you can work through the pain and yearning. T's get a lot out of it too, or so my T tells me. My T once said that he lends me strength and in return sees me reflect that back to him.
Posted by blahblahblah on May 27, 2009, at 2:05:13
In reply to Re: can't handle the transference, posted by emmanuel98 on May 26, 2009, at 22:36:54
<I don't know how it went away, but it did. Or at least it got a lot less intense, gradually, over time
Sorry to bug you, is there anything at all that happened, or any process from what you spoke about that got you to this point? did you have to break through certain things with your T??
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 27, 2009, at 21:27:22
In reply to can't handle the transference, posted by blahblahblah on May 26, 2009, at 18:58:36
Dear blahblahblah,
As painful as this is, still, for me - it's my favorite subject! Yay! Not to be cheery about pain...I have been seeing my T for 2 1/2 years now. I have maternal transference as well as romantic (yes, sexual). It's very complicated and complex all the time. Much of the time it is painful and scary, and sometimes, especially recently, healing. I think I *just* reached a point where I truly believe in this process and get that it really is going somewhere and "working".
I think for a long, long time these are just "moments". I don't think there is really a "thing" that happens that makes it change or get easier. But, I think the moments add up over time.
Now, as to the idea that the feelings get easier/subside/diminish - I can't believe that yet. Everyone says it (including my T) so I'm sure it's true. But my T is HUGE in my life. Like emmanuel98 expressed, my T takes up so much space in my head all day long. I dream about her at night. And now I even fantasize about her. Thoughts of her - and all of my different types of yearning - permeate all of me.I hurt for her all of the time. I describe it as my palms aching. I can't even tell sometimes what I want from her. I just want *more*. It seems like it's never enough. I'm always trying to find some way to have her express that she cares about me. I get connected and then the next session I feel scared and disconnected.
It's interesting that you say sometimes she seems warm and other times not. I *totally* feel that way about my T. But for me, when I pull out of a pained, yearning place and feel more connected to her for a session I look back to the "cold" time and think maybe it was *me*. That may or may not apply in your case.
I do think all of this helps. Recently my T really showed up for me when I came out of a crisis. I trusted her and really felt that trust fully for the first time ever. I know that it was a risk I was taking to let her in and let her see my real pain, but I couldn't have done it without all of this up-and-down and struggle with her and her "care" for me to build a sense of trust. I don't really understand it all, but I do believe it can work.
I can honestly say I'm not sure I have ever felt that held by someone, ever. (Even though there was no literal holding.)
Now, because it was so incredible and I felt so connected to her and seen and cared for and all of that, I have to struggle to stay with that this week. I'm afraid of losing her again. I'm starting to yearn again. But I want to try to stay with it and not pull back because I'm starting to feel what it's like to be seen in all of that hurt/anger/fear/yearning.
This is super hard stuff. I went from trying to quit therapy two weeks ago cause I felt like I needed too much, and then felt like because she didn't seem to try to stop me that she didn't care - to telling her all about my feelings and my "plan" to get her to prove that she cared. Once I told her that everything seemed to shift. (I honestly think they shifted for me - she is the same - although more attuned to more of me.)
But the heartbreak will continue I'm sure. I can get my heart broken by her in my head all by myself! I hear this stuff takes time. I think each time the cycle happens, healing begins. Over and over until you start to stick for yourself. Or something like that.
I know this is a ramble. I was going to write about this very thing tonight in my journal. I'm trying to psych myself into coming forward with myself when I see my T tomorrow.
blahblahblah, the more you can talk to her about all of this, the better. If you can take a step back and look at your T's responses to you when you talk about this stuff, do you feel supported and like she can be solid - consistent? Does she seem to "handle it?" If so, the more deep feelings around the "heart break" that you can share with her directly, the better. Even though it's HARD, HARD, HARD.
Just my perspective for today.
FMD
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 27, 2009, at 22:28:58
In reply to Re: can't handle the transference, posted by blahblahblah on May 27, 2009, at 2:05:13
Blahblahblah --
Like FMD, this is my favorite topic too, so don't apologize for asking more. I'm still trying to understand this process called therapy. For the first year or two, I found it overpowering. There wasn't any one thing that make it better. But I think the following helped:
(1) I journaled about it every night. On some level, I did understand from the beginning that these feelings weren't about him, but about some emptiness in me. I have a daughter and I was very aware of the parallel between my relationship with her and his relationship with me: the intent focus on me and how I felt, the way he kept track of details in my life and asked me what was happening. It made me yearn and yearn for more. I wanted to possess him, consume him, have him with me always. So I journaled a lot about where that yearning came from, what hole in myself I wanted him to fill. This helped me master the feelings, but it took time.
(2) I talked about it a lot to my T, over and over again. I was always embarassed to talk about it, am still embarassed to talk about it, even though he knows how I feel/have felt because I talked about it so much. Talking helped, but again, slowly. He always gave me reality checks -- pointed out that I didn't really love him because I didn't really know him; told me repeatedly that we could never be friends; told me that he cared about me but would never care for me the way he cared about close friends and family. The first few times we talked, these reality checks made me feel like he had kicked me in the chest. But they forced me to accept reality eventually.
(3) One day I had a moment of clarity where I realized that I would be a terrible friend to him. I would just want to follow him around and bask in his presence and command his attention. That realization really helped me understand why he said we could never be friends. It helped me accept the reality of the relationship.
(4) I found the questions and answers at guidetopsychology.com very helpful. They made me feel lucky that my T keeps good boundaries while a lot of T's do not. A lot of T's don't handle transference well, muck it up and ruin the therapy. The more I read about this, the more grateful I was that my T has remained, steadfastly, my T.
(5) Most important, you do have to accept that your feelings about your T are based partly in reality -- she really is a caring, loving, attentive presence in your life -- but partly in transference and distortion. That's the truth. It's a hard truth to swallow because you want to blame your T for how you feel or make demands on your T that she can't/won't meet. You are the one bringing this yearning and pain into the relationship. The goal of therapy is to help you cope with all that emotion. Your T's job is to help you cope, not to marry you or adopt you or have sex with you or drop everything to rescue you from distress. This sounds harsh and it is harsh. But that's the truth.
(6) Finally, it really helped me a lot to get involved in 12-step groups where I was able to make friends and develop new relationships. This allowed me to expand my social and emotional supports so I was not completely dependent on my T for help and guidance.Sorry this is so long. Hope it is a little bit helpfu.
Posted by blahblahblah on May 28, 2009, at 1:45:27
In reply to Re: can't handle the transference, posted by emmanuel98 on May 27, 2009, at 22:28:58
Thank you for all the advice guys. Emmanuel98. I think if she told me she couldn't care for me like she does her close friends I would never go back. I know I have unrealistic expectations, I don't know. It all seems so hard. I started coming off my SSRI's the other day, and now I feel so much more depressed and suicidal. I don't know if that is just a side effect of the withdrawal. Thank you for the journaltip, I do Journal but not as much as i should be. Has anyone seen two therapists?? one to help get through the transference with one? Also, do any of you contract your T outside of the session? If yes, what is the protocol on that?
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 28, 2009, at 8:51:54
In reply to Re: can't handle the transference, posted by blahblahblah on May 28, 2009, at 1:45:27
Hi blahblahblah,
I totally understand what you are saying here about the level of care your T can have for you. I don't like thinking about it as a kind she has for others that I can't have. (That would freak me out too at this stage I think.) I will say, however, that I believe our relationships with our Ts are unique, different, and magical. I mean they are intimate and intense, yet contained. There's nothing like it. Which is why they can't be like the other relationships our Ts have. I liked what Emmanuel said about realizing that he couldn't be a good friend. I don't like thinking about such things, but it's so true for me too. I hardly like to know anything about my T in reality. I always think I want to know more about her but then the knowledge makes me so uneasy. It's changes my relationship to her being all that I need her to be in my head. That's just me!As for the meds, I don't know about those. I do know that whomever said it was OK for you to come off of them should know how that is making you feel - I hope. Yes?
Recently I talked to my T about having suicidal thoughts and it really, really helped. I sure hope that you can get some support from a care provider of some kind. Seems like a lot to bear on your own.
As for the second T to deal with the first - I crack that joke on occasion in therapy. I have really wanted that. Once my T was out on maternity leave for 3 months or so. It was so very, very terrible. I saw another T and all I did was cry and sob over not feeling cared for by the first T. It was terrible at the time, but ultimately pointed out the number one thing I needed to address with my T.
Mostly, blahblahblah, I hope you can have some compassion for yourself (much harder said than done) around your feelings and attachments. I now have so much faith that it's all about movement. The yearning and pain in one moment that seem unbearable, subsides the next. It might come back again, but I think it comes back with a new experience attached to it.
((((((((((((((blahblahblah))))))))))))))))))
FMD
> Thank you for all the advice guys. Emmanuel98. I think if she told me she couldn't care for me like she does her close friends I would never go back. I know I have unrealistic expectations, I don't know. It all seems so hard. I started coming off my SSRI's the other day, and now I feel so much more depressed and suicidal. I don't know if that is just a side effect of the withdrawal. Thank you for the journaltip, I do Journal but not as much as i should be. Has anyone seen two therapists?? one to help get through the transference with one? Also, do any of you contract your T outside of the session? If yes, what is the protocol on that?
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 28, 2009, at 20:06:22
In reply to Re: can't handle the transference, posted by blahblahblah on May 28, 2009, at 1:45:27
I have a second T now to work on DBT and sometimes we talk about my feelings for my primary T. As for contact between sessions -- my first couple of years, I was always calling him. He's always a bit brusque on the phone and I was always embarrassed and apologetic when he called back, so it wasn't very satisfying. Nevertheless, he always said it was alright to call and he always brought it up when we met. You need to ask your T about her expectations as far as this goes.
> Thank you for all the advice guys. Emmanuel98. I think if she told me she couldn't care for me like she does her close friends I would never go back. I know I have unrealistic expectations, I don't know. It all seems so hard. I started coming off my SSRI's the other day, and now I feel so much more depressed and suicidal. I don't know if that is just a side effect of the withdrawal. Thank you for the journaltip, I do Journal but not as much as i should be. Has anyone seen two therapists?? one to help get through the transference with one? Also, do any of you contract your T outside of the session? If yes, what is the protocol on that?
Posted by blahblahblah on May 28, 2009, at 20:19:22
In reply to Re: can't handle the transference, posted by emmanuel98 on May 28, 2009, at 20:06:22
haha. I know that feeling of the abrupt short tone over the phone. I get the exact same thing. I end up more angry after the call.i did it last night and got cut off with being told there was a client waiting so i spent the whole time apologising. Given though i did pretty much tell her i thought she was doing a sh*t job. Gotta love the anger at the parents being taken out on the t. How does everyone else go with contacting out of sessions?
Posted by antigua3 on May 29, 2009, at 7:30:14
In reply to contacting out of sessions. How does that go? » emmanuel98, posted by blahblahblah on May 28, 2009, at 20:19:22
This was just brought up in my recent sessions with both my T and pdoc.
This issue seems to change for me over time with both my pdoc and T. My T has always been wonderful about encouraging me to call, and I learned to call when I needed to. But now I can't seem to call unless I'm really bad, and we are trying to figure out why I can't call her. It's a maternal issue, I know, that I didn't go to my mother for help when I needed it because she was always so busy, so I ended up just not needing her, so that's what I've transferred onto my T now. I figure she's so busy, I don't call, but recently when I had a bad spell, I was horrified to discover that I didn't even think of calling her. It just didn't occur to me.
I rarely called my pdoc in the beginning. He never mentioned I could call, and when I did, he rarely, if ever, returned my call. My messages were pretty vicious at the time, but it still hurt that he wouldn't call back.
Now my pdoc always returns my calls, but I've probably only called him a few times since I've started to trust him. He is brusque, too, and always seems too busy to talk, but once we get into the call he gives me the time I need.
I asked him last week when it was OK to call. He told me "how," as in which number to use, etc., but I pressed him on "when." He finally got it, and said to call before I was on the edge, not to wait until I got to that point. That works for me, but still, I find it almost impossible to call and ask for help from either one of them. My trust issues, I'm sure, with my pdoc, and with my T, we're going to work on it.
antigua
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 29, 2009, at 11:52:00
In reply to Re: contacting out of sessions. How does that go? » blahblahblah, posted by antigua3 on May 29, 2009, at 7:30:14
I call her a lot right now to leave messages. I say whether or not I want her to return the message and she will. We rarely talk in person. Even on the rare occasion when she returns my message within a couple of minutes, I don't pick up. A couple of times it has been great to talk to her on the phone - when I have been in a major crisis, but even then she tends to limit these calls to 10 minutes and so while helpful, it hurts. As for other times (when I'm not in a terrible place, but just starting to slip into one) it's awful to talk to her. She sounds short and controlling like she is just being so careful to limit me so that she can get off. I have a hunch that what is really going on is that she wants me to feel a little more connected but to somehow hold my need until we can get together and really work together. Plus, of course, there are her real life time constraints and the reality of that. But in any case, this is generally more hurtful to me.
I have also found recently that's it's easier to "lie" to her on the phone - hide what I really need and she has more trouble reading me. Then I get more hurt and more angry. I'm trying to be better about that cause I'm learning if I'm forthcoming with my desperateness, she actually can and will help me.
Mostly she leaves me encouraging messages when I ask her to. I listen to them over and over and over all week long. I have even recorded some and put them on my iPod. Sometimes I even sleep to the sound of her voice on these messages. Yup, I just admitted that.
The more my T and I have talked about the boundaries and expectations we both have about these in-between contacts, the better it has gotten. I have been able to use these more and more as a tool. So, that's my encouragement to you, blahblahblah. Talk it out, as HARD as that is.
FMD
Posted by FindingMyDesire on June 1, 2009, at 0:50:00
In reply to can't handle the transference, posted by blahblahblah on May 26, 2009, at 18:58:36
Posted by blahblahblah on June 1, 2009, at 1:32:20
In reply to Thinking of you. Are you OK? (nm) » blahblahblah, posted by FindingMyDesire on June 1, 2009, at 0:50:00
oh thank you FMD. that message was so lovely, it brought a big smile to my face. I'm ok, just sat in a university lecture and had everyone tell me I'm cynical. I haven't seen my T since i spoke to her on the phone. I have written a list of 15 reasons why i should stop therapy. I will give it to her next week. Interestingly I noticed 12 of them are all about her. ie, i am worried you will have a breakdown, you don't have enough time for me, i call you and that annoys you. etc, etc, etc. how are you?
Posted by Dinah on June 1, 2009, at 7:56:05
In reply to Re: Thinking of you. Are you OK?, posted by blahblahblah on June 1, 2009, at 1:32:20
I wouldn't say the twelve were all about her.
I'd say they were about your reactions to your relationship with her. I don't know that that's all bad, since so much of ourselves seems to play itself out in our relationships with our therapists. That's one of the points of therapy, in some therapies.
Whether it would be helpful in your therapy, I don't know. Is she the sort of therapist that is familiar with using the therapeutic relationship in her work? Do these issues play out elsewhere in your life? Not necessarily as overtly as they do in therapy. Therapy tends to magnify these things, which allows us to work on them and improve our functioning outside therapy in the process.
I recognize that sometimes it really is all about them, but often it's about both us and them. Do you think it likely that she will have a breakdown? Has she given any indication that that may be likely? Has she had previous breakdowns?
Some of the most helpful things to me in therapy is learning to know and accept who I am, and know and accept who he is, and to know where I stop and he starts. In other words, sometimes I still agonize over something that happens in therapy, and worry that he'll be thinking or feeling any number of things about it. Only to find out that he hadn't been thinking about it at all. That's not very pleasant of course. But it often helps me stop in the middle of worrying about things, and recognize that unpalatable fact. I've found that helpful in many areas of my life. Not pleasant, but helpful.
Posted by blahblahblah on June 1, 2009, at 22:07:01
In reply to Re: Thinking of you. Are you OK? » blahblahblah, posted by Dinah on June 1, 2009, at 7:56:05
<<I wouldn't say the twelve were all about her.
<<I'd say they were about your reactions to your relationship with her. I don't know that that's all bad, since so much of ourselves seems to play itself out in our relationships with our therapists. That's one of the points of therapy, in some therapies.
I totally agree Dina, these are my own issues that i am transferring onto her. the same old, i am in people's way and they don't want to be around me. Yeah she is really good about talking about our relationship and the way i see her. I find it hard to talk to her about them. and no i have no evidence that she will have a breakdown. I guess it refers to my mother always being in psych wards growing up so i was too afraid to tell her how i felt about anything. I think it is still best for me to bring up what i am thinking though. What do you guys think? is there anything you think should be censored in therapy?
Posted by Dinah on June 1, 2009, at 22:29:15
In reply to Re: Thinking of you. Are you OK?, posted by blahblahblah on June 1, 2009, at 22:07:01
I was talking only about it as a reason to quit. It was often tempting to me to consider quitting because of the angst in the therapeutic relationship itself. And it does make sense. Therapy is supposed to make us feel better, right? But in the long run I'm glad I didn't.
Absolutely you should be as honest and open with your therapist as possible. That's what helps her be your therapist.
Posted by blahblahblah on June 1, 2009, at 22:56:41
In reply to Re: Thinking of you. Are you OK? » blahblahblah, posted by Dinah on June 1, 2009, at 22:29:15
yeah i understand exactly what you're saying. Sometimes i wonder how this is helping me when it hurts so much. it would be easier to just run away and forget therapy ever happened. I sometimes get angry that no one ever warned me this could happen. but for some reason i stick around, i guess because i'd rather have her in my life with it hurting me than not have her at all.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on June 2, 2009, at 11:45:24
In reply to Re: Thinking of you. Are you OK?, posted by blahblahblah on June 1, 2009, at 22:56:41
> yeah i understand exactly what you're saying. Sometimes i wonder how this is helping me when it hurts so much. it would be easier to just run away and forget therapy ever happened. I sometimes get angry that no one ever warned me this could happen. but for some reason i stick around, i guess because i'd rather have her in my life with it hurting me than not have her at all.
I totally get this feeling! Totally. Almost feels like your only choice is a painful one - and the one without her is just worse.
When the healing moments happen, though, I am convinced the pain is worth it. If there is a way to let her in and to be with her when you are feeling the worst of it, it can create (I believe) some of the real shifts and real *moments* of connectedness. And that can be unbelievably healing. (And feel just plain, fu*kn' amazing!)
But I'm having a very rare moment of clarity after one such "moment" with my T... so grains of salt all around.
I'm projecting a desire that we all have more and more of these moments with our therapists!
FMD
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