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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by zenhussy on June 4, 2009, at 1:00:07
and what if this idea was from the therapist themselves?
feeling skeptical but given circumstances beyond control the necessity to seek new therapist has arisen.
have the good fortune of therapist and pdoc who are in frequent communication and use team approach whenever called for. has made huge difference in last few years w/ advances in healing and understanding supported by their team mentality.
not looking forward to interviewing new ppl for this next leg of the long healing journey.
therapist said that perhaps a team approach of two therapists might be useful for those of us w/ deep trauma(s) in our lives.
have read much over the years of therapists not being keen on this idea. makes sense and agree for most part. too easy to segment out information and be selective in what's shared where....even knowing they'll be in touch cousulting on the case.
but to have two separate therapists each week working on one's case and treat, in their own styles and approaches, the client as a team? separate but in touch, on par, and like minded enough to manage the challenges that come up in working w/ deep trauma survivors.
skeptical but curious.
still in shock over abrupt changes that make continuing the work w/ this therapist of past several years not really an option any longer. at least not the level of work we had been attending to over the past few years anyway.
it took so long to get to this point of even trusting this therapist and achieving this level of work. so hard to imagine rebuilding that level of trust w/ someone new. how long before the trust permeates all levels? took years w/ the current therapist. patience, support and stability are very key things for deep trauma survivors and when one of those things goes out of balance it is a deep blow to the fragile psyche and more fragile healing parts.
not doing therapy is not an option. take time and interview new ppl as solo therapist or try the approach of two therapist who agree to co-treat our case?
it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts so damn much.
Posted by blahblahblah on June 4, 2009, at 4:52:58
In reply to Could two therapists work?, posted by zenhussy on June 4, 2009, at 1:00:07
i'm so sorry that you have to go through all this. It is hard enough building trust with one T let alone have two working together. I think you need to know that your T by the sounds of it wants to help you so much, and if working with someone else to do that will help, well it sounds like a great idea. My T the other day told me she wants me to see a psychiatrist as well as her, at first i got angry that she can't fix me, but i realise that they only do the best they can do. I find it admirable when they accept they need more support and don't lead you on pretending to fix what they know they aren't capable of. I dunno, does that help at all. Sorry i went on a bit of a rant. :)
Posted by antigua3 on June 4, 2009, at 9:11:34
In reply to Could two therapists work?, posted by zenhussy on June 4, 2009, at 1:00:07
Ah, I'm an expert on this. :) But mine came about by happenstance, really, or maybe it was destined to be!
It's really, really difficult to do this, but if you have a "team" willing to work together I think it probably could work well. It's interesting to me that your T brought this up and that is a helpful approach for trauma survivors. I'd like to know more about this.
I have had the same female T for about 18 years now. She has been a wonderful "mother" to me and helped me raise three great kids. It took me years to trust her, but we have gotten to some really tought issues. And we could deal with the fall-out of my issues about my father (like being attracted to emotionally abusive, unavailable men, and I'm a very happily married woman), but we couldn't ever quite get to the issues. In retrospect, we both think that I was protecting her and viewed her too much as the "good" mother to deal with them.
My old pdoc moved unexpectedly (didn't even tell me!) but I just used him for meds. Sometimes we'd talk and I always found it interesting, but I've never become attached to any of the male pdocs I've seen over the years.
So, I started to see the guy who took over my old T's practice. It started off with purely meds managment, but my "male" issues started to rear their ugly head and he suggested that we start working together on a regular basis. I hated him for a long time. He is more CBT whereas my T is psychodynamic, but I did find his more stern, methodical approach very helpful (because it reminds me of my father). I've always had great difficulty in dealing with male authority figures, so here was the chance and I grabbed it. I had tried EMDR and even hypnosis at my T's suggestion, but I was blocked.
So, for the last year or so, I've been seeing them both for therapy. My T agreed, admitting that she thought I needed to work through my male issues with a male therapist. We have an understanding that if there is ever a time she thinks it's more harmful than helpful to work with him, she would let me know. There have been times where I've thought this to be so, but she has continued to encourage me to work with him.
But the problem with two Ts who aren't a team is that I waste valuable therapy time telling my T what has happened with my pdoc. I never do this with my pdoc, though. It's like my T and I are united in this one aspect, but it has become a problem now. Sometimes I don't know who to listen to. She is helping me work through these things with my pdoc, and while it has been extremely difficult, it has been worth it.
I wish my T and pdoc were a team, although that's a scary thought. But that way maybe I could extract myself from this triad. It's a goal.
My pdoc has never wanted to speak with my T. He told me early on that he doesn't believe in "long-term" therapy and that obviously I needed a different approach.
It has been a difficult journey with him, but we've made tremendous progress. I trust him now, after seeing him really for three years. So the trust can develop.
It depends on what and how each T is going to treat you. Do they divide up the duties or are you working on the same thing with both of them? But the fact they are working together is a great concept.
It hasn't been easy, but it has been helpful.
I imagine it would be tough developing trust with two new Ts at the same time. I would expect that trust to develop at different paces, given how they treat patients. But you do have an opportunity to start over, fresh, with two new minds working with you on your issues. I do recognize how hard it will be, though, to give up your current T. I'm sorry you have to go through that.
In any case, good luck!
antigua
Posted by fleeting flutterby on June 4, 2009, at 9:46:43
In reply to Could two therapists work?, posted by zenhussy on June 4, 2009, at 1:00:07
> and what if this idea was from the therapist themselves?<<
--flutterby: That could mean that T. is wanting to help and feels it could be good to add other references to the help-- like another T. One human can only know and do so much-- maybe having two could be twice the help.... maybe....
>
> feeling skeptical but given circumstances beyond control the necessity to seek new therapist has arisen.<<---flutterby: Sorry I'm a bit confused-- are you meaning that you are looking to replace your current T.? or are you just looking for a new T. to supplement your current one--- you know-- like some people take a vitamin every day and then take a vitamin C to supplement.
>
> have the good fortune of therapist and pdoc who are in frequent communication and use team approach whenever called for. has made huge difference in last few years w/ advances in healing and understanding supported by their team mentality.<<---flutterby: Oh that is wonderful, I'm glad for you.
> not looking forward to interviewing new ppl for this next leg of the long healing journey.<<---flutterby: I sure don't blame you-- yuk. I don't like that either. In fact I never do that-- I just go and then argue with myself after weeks if this person is going to work or not.
>
> therapist said that perhaps a team approach of two therapists might be useful for those of us w/ deep trauma(s) in our lives.<<---flutterby: that could be-- it's worth a try, isn't it? could you go back to the way things were before if you find it's not so good for you?
>
> have read much over the years of therapists not being keen on this idea. makes sense and agree for most part. too easy to segment out information and be selective in what's shared where....even knowing they'll be in touch cousulting on the case.
>
> but to have two separate therapists each week working on one's case and treat, in their own styles and approaches, the client as a team? separate but in touch, on par, and like minded enough to manage the challenges that come up in working w/ deep trauma survivors.
>
> skeptical but curious.<<----flutterby: Yes, I would be too. but like I said, mabye it's worth a try?
> still in shock over abrupt changes that make continuing the work w/ this therapist of past several years not really an option any longer. at least not the level of work we had been attending to over the past few years anyway.
>
> it took so long to get to this point of even trusting this therapist and achieving this level of work. so hard to imagine rebuilding that level of trust w/ someone new. how long before the trust permeates all levels? took years w/ the current therapist.<<---flutteby: yes, I so understand your concerns.
>> patience, support and stability are very key things for deep trauma survivors and when one of those things goes out of balance it is a deep blow to the fragile psyche and more fragile healing parts.<<
---flutterby: Ah, yes! this is what happened to me and it can be so damaging. what you said-- patience, support and stability are SO VERY important-- yes!
>
> not doing therapy is not an option. take time and interview new ppl as solo therapist or try the approach of two therapist who agree to co-treat our case?<<---flutterby: I think, I'd try the two therapists first. One already knows you and you've trusted. at least perhaps, you'd have that knonw one to fall back on if things got rocky with the new one. jsut a suggestion.....
>
> it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts so damn much.<<---flutterby: I'm sorry. to trust and feel safe is so important to some of us. my heart is with you in your upset.
flutterby-mandy
Posted by Dinah on June 4, 2009, at 10:12:10
In reply to Could two therapists work?, posted by zenhussy on June 4, 2009, at 1:00:07
I'm so sorry you're losing your therapist. I know how much she meant to you. It's my nightmare.
((( zen )))
As you might remember, I campaigned for two therapists for a long time and my therapist resisted. When he moved away, he finally consented to let me keep the therapist I was going to while he was out of the country, as long as we clarified the roles.
It didn't work out at all. I spent much of my time with him complaining about her. He of course encouraged me to see her more favorably. And while she never said a single thing against my therapist, her view of therapy was different, and I saw her as subtly undermining my therapy with him.
We talked about it afterward, and my therapist said that having two therapists would only work if both therapists were working together and had a very similar view both of the therapy process and of my issues. Otherwise undermining often takes place.
So I'd say I'd probably be drawn to having two therapists - particularly if I had lost mine against my will. I'd be drawn to the idea of being less dependent on each. But my experience of it is that it doesn't work.
Posted by Phillipa on June 4, 2009, at 12:40:35
In reply to Re: Could two therapists work? » zenhussy, posted by Dinah on June 4, 2009, at 10:12:10
As a side note had a pdoc that did theraphy also but then had me see a therapist in addition in his practice. I and my husband both liked the therapist thought she was helping. Well the pdoc didn't like what her advise was so pulled the rug out and said I couldn't see her anymore only one I connected with and since he was here boss she worked under him lost the therapist. Soon later left the pdoc. Just my story. Phillipa
Posted by emmanuel98 on June 4, 2009, at 19:52:25
In reply to Re: Could two therapists work?, posted by Phillipa on June 4, 2009, at 12:40:35
I have two therapists, each of whom I see weekly. My p-doc I have seen in psychodynamic therapy for four years. He also does prescribing. For the past year, I have also seen a woman social worker who specializes in DBT/CBT. They are in touch when they need to be and each regularly checks in with me about what's going on with the other.
At this point, I feel that most of the work of therapy has been transferred to the social worker. I still see my p-doc weekly because I've had a lot of complicated medication issues and because, to be honest, I can't bear the thought of not seeing him. I've had powerful transference issues with him since the beginning. But I notice him easing himself out. When I bring up an issue, he'll say, that's something you can work on with (the social worker).
So it can work, but I think it has to happen organically.
Posted by fayeroe on June 5, 2009, at 11:43:23
In reply to Could two therapists work?, posted by zenhussy on June 4, 2009, at 1:00:07
> and what if this idea was from the therapist themselves?
I"ve always known that your T is a very good one. She has been with you through ups and downs. I don't think she would suggest something that wasn't going to work in a positive way for you.
>
> feeling skeptical but given circumstances beyond control the necessity to seek new therapist has arisen.Being skeptical is good. Means you're thinking outside your box..
>
> have the good fortune of therapist and pdoc who are in frequent communication and use team approach whenever called for. has made huge difference in last few years w/ advances in healing and understanding supported by their team mentality.You have a great relationship with the two. If it has helped so much..and it has...considering the idea of two Ts sounds good to me.
>
> not looking forward to interviewing new ppl for this next leg of the long healing journey.I remember how shocked I was when I was
"given" Dr. Paul after I had been with the other guy for a year...but I couldn't ask for a better Pdoc now.
>
> therapist said that perhaps a team approach of two therapists might be useful for those of us w/ deep trauma(s) in our lives.
>
> have read much over the years of therapists not being keen on this idea. makes sense and agree for most part. too easy to segment out information and be selective in what's shared where....even knowing they'll be in touch cousulting on the case.That is a concern that I have for you.
>
> but to have two separate therapists each week working on one's case and treat, in their own styles and approaches, the client as a team? separate but in touch, on par, and like minded enough to manage the challenges that come up in working w/ deep trauma survivors.I think it would be beneficial to you.
>
> skeptical but curious.Curious is good.
>
> still in shock over abrupt changes that make continuing the work w/ this therapist of past several years not really an option any longer. at least not the level of work we had been attending to over the past few years anyway.
>
> it took so long to get to this point of even trusting this therapist and achieving this level of work. so hard to imagine rebuilding that level of trust w/ someone new. how long before the trust permeates all levels? took years w/ the current therapist. patience, support and stability are very key things for deep trauma survivors and when one of those things goes out of balance it is a deep blow to the fragile psyche and more fragile healing parts.
>
> not doing therapy is not an option. take time and interview new ppl as solo therapist or try the approach of two therapist who agree to co-treat our case?I'd go for two.
>
> it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts so damn much.I know it does. I would take it off your shoulders if I could.
>
>
> xoxoxo Pat
>
Posted by muffled on June 7, 2009, at 21:26:33
In reply to Re: Could two therapists work?, posted by emmanuel98 on June 4, 2009, at 19:52:25
I know of others who see two diff types of T's , like reg T and an art T.
But also I have heard it can be dicey cuz of the triangle thing.
I think it best they can comminucate w/each other bout you.
I think if they doing diff things, then maybe its OK?
M
Posted by zenhussy on June 8, 2009, at 12:45:34
In reply to Could two therapists work?, posted by zenhussy on June 4, 2009, at 1:00:07
thank you all. going to listen today to more of this pitch for the two therapist idea and really work on whether or not this would be a good fit.
would like to have a better idea of just what this entails before embarking on the interview process for new therapists.
will reply more in depth this evening.
thanks again for the thoughtful replies. it helps to hear from those who also deal w/ dissociative disorders given the unique therapeutic challenges they can present.
Posted by zenhussy on June 8, 2009, at 22:12:51
In reply to Re: Could two therapists work?-quick reply for all, posted by zenhussy on June 8, 2009, at 12:45:34
will have to wait for pdoc to return from time away to ask directly what his thoughts are given this being his idea.
can see the value of it *if* done in a particular way for that individual client....otherwise too many cooks in the kitchen!
not a good way to end therapy of several years but so it goes. = ( have names to call and interviews to schedule...in due time.
sucks to feel so hardened after finally getting some softer edges. extraordinarily painful. into the steeled state of survival mode, shut it up, shut it in, move on...life is suffering.
ain't no buddhist acceptance yet on this one in this household. sigh. reeling.
Posted by jane d on June 18, 2009, at 6:05:57
In reply to idea came from pdoc...curiouser and curiouser..., posted by zenhussy on June 8, 2009, at 22:12:51
It is an intriguing idea. Or at least it is when it's just hypothetical. I don't know how I'd feel about doing it myself. And have no idea what you should do. But I do have a lot of faith in your ability to make a good decision for yourself here even though the situation stinks. Hang in there.
jane
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 6:53:04
In reply to Could two therapists work?, posted by zenhussy on June 4, 2009, at 1:00:07
Would the therapists use different methods?
- Scott
Posted by zenhussy on June 22, 2009, at 22:31:16
In reply to Are you still considering this? » zenhussy, posted by jane d on June 18, 2009, at 6:05:57
don't ever disappear forever, okay? your words are just the right salve for this wounded tired soul. thank you.
Daisy said in another post below "I think like all things, therapy evolves and changes. And when your therapist makes a change, it stings if you aren't ready to make the same one."
total ouch about being not quite ready for the changes our therapist is making/has made. it does sting like a skinned kneee.
won't know for another month the detail from pdoc about the two pronged approach to therapy for survivors of deep trauma (pdoc's words). limbo didn't seem like such a good place to remain so going w/ the known and familiar for now.
very skittish and hesitant to return to the work after so much time off and now such large changes.
therapist has been very clear about which boundaries are changing and they totally make sense for someone who needs to watch out for their energy levels. thinking on these things isn't the major anxiety inducer.
that title goes to the old fear of "being too much to handle".......be it a parent, therapist, physician, any professional involved in team zen healing.
having had that experience in the past and having a deeply rooted fear of that from childhood makes any perceived threat of being referred on yet another sign that there aren't that many options left for figuring out what our needs are and how to get them met.
will attempt to go w/ the flow of these changes as best able. don't feel much able to manage anything. but history has shown much better functioning in life when the meds are accompanied by therapy and other modalities of healing.
have a gut feeling/instinct about therapist's proposed current and future plans. on one hand it is great that so much thought has been put into this from therpist's perspective and how it impacts the clients. then there's the gut instinct which tends to be a deeper intuition that some survivors hone for survival reasons. that instinct is sensing that the time frame being set forth isn't realistic given the huge changes in the therapist's life. life doesn't give guarantees and learning to live w/ that uncertainty can be an awfully uncomfortable place to reside in.
old fear stirred up. coming back from a two month break to such changes was more than we were up to at the time. still not entirely convinced this is a good idea but until hearing from the source what the arguement is for two therapist will just stick w/ the current one.
much trepidation about what the next phase entails.
sick of the irrational feelings that accompany the old fear of "being too much to handle". feels really rotten and hopeless.
hard to separate that out when feeling this way......it is just a feeling and feelings can be changed. but it feels like we're what's rotten here.
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 7:15:09
In reply to Re: Are you still considering this? » jane d, posted by zenhussy on June 22, 2009, at 22:31:16
> still not entirely convinced this is a good idea but until hearing from the source what the arguement is for two therapist will just stick w/ the current one.
That makes a lot of sense. After you've heard what your pdoc has to say, you'll be better able to make plans.
> hard to separate that out when feeling this way......it is just a feeling and feelings can be changed. but it feels like we're what's rotten here.You've been with this therapist a long time. She must not think you're rotten. I hate it when therapist's personal lives intrude into the therapy room, but when someone is ill, I suppose there's no way around that.
You seem to taking it far more sensibly than I would.
Posted by paxvox59 on June 23, 2009, at 12:46:02
In reply to Re: Are you still considering this? » jane d, posted by zenhussy on June 22, 2009, at 22:31:16
Zen- how are you?
Paxvox
This is the end of the thread.
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