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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by toetapper on October 10, 2009, at 1:23:48
In reply to Re: Homely then, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 21:36:43
I read your post earlier and then got distracted and browsed around some other sites, but I just read an op-ed piece at the Times titled "The Eye of the Beholder" and had to come back.
It's been a long week and I'm really tired but I think what I want to say is each of us has something about ourselves we feel insecure about. We are scrutinized and judged by everyone around us, constantly, but we have to hold in mind there is no fixed measure, nothing we can point to as a standard, a definitive. What is important to one person is not to the next, what is beautiful to one person is not to the next, what is homely to one person is not to the next. Some people think Barbie is grotesque!
I've never seen you, I have no idea where you would fall on my personal spectrum of attractiveness, how I would judge you based on that alone. Would I find you homely? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
I think not, if for no other reason than I have read your words and peered into your heart and your mind for three or four years now, and I agree with what Pegasus said in a few posts above: Believe in your own experience first. I don't know if you have limp hair or a platter face, I'm not even sure if that, by definition, means you are homely. Maybe to some, maybe not to others. But I do know you can believe in yourself when you say "My beauty lies within." You are correct, it does, irrespective of whether or not it also lies without.
But what really prompted me to post is how envious I am that your relationship with your T reaches far enough and deep enough to be truthful, even in the face of discomfort to each of you. That, to me, is an expression of love. He is giving you implicit AND explicit invitation to trust him, to believe in him, and your relationship.
You are beautiful Dinah, inside outside and everything in between, no matter what the mirror says. And you are loved, and cared for, by so many. Each of whom, all of whom!, know you for who you are.
Posted by 10derHeart on October 10, 2009, at 4:06:49
In reply to Re: Homely then, posted by toetapper on October 10, 2009, at 1:23:48
What a beautiful, eloquent post.
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2009, at 9:20:30
In reply to Re: Homely then, posted by toetapper on October 10, 2009, at 1:23:48
It was a beautiful post. And it embodies many of the ideas I am trying to address in therapy.
This in particular struck me.
"But what really prompted me to post is how envious I am that your relationship with your T reaches far enough and deep enough to be truthful, even in the face of discomfort to each of you. That, to me, is an expression of love. He is giving you implicit AND explicit invitation to trust him, to believe in him, and your relationship."
It's the thing I remember most about yesterday's session. I know that it was really hard for him not to mutter a reflexive denial. He trusted in our relationship enough to do something that was hard for him, and I trusted it enough to take in something that hurt, even if I at the very same time welcomed it. He made himself vulnerable to me, and that was such a loving thing to do. It might come easy enough to some therapists, but he is not one of those therapists.
Thank you for really understanding that.
Posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2009, at 12:54:29
In reply to Re: Homely then » toetapper, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2009, at 9:20:30
Wow I just this thread. I'm amazed. As was said beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Dinah does your husband and Son see you as unattractive? Avoid you? Not want to be seen in public with you? Do people avoid you in the outside world? Do they avert their eyes when the see you? I doubt it but of course only hear your words here where they are eleoquently put. I hate the lines, wrinkles fact that I'd give anything to be middle aged again. In all seriousness those were definitely the very bestest years of my life. Enjoy them and enjoy life while you can. I think my rant is kind of based on a conversation I had with a woman yesterday who lost her 14 year old Daughter to a bout of Cancer. I was totally in awe of her strength which she saw as weakness that she cries? Made me feel so selfish. I think a lot of us all need to live in the present I always think into the future. But I find it hard to believe that a therapist would even agree. I hope I was civil it just stuck a personal nerve as well. Dinah you are a wonderful person. Rejoice in who you are you have a family that truly loves you. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2009, at 14:59:48
In reply to Re: Homely then, posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2009, at 12:54:29
Well... I think my husband and son are embarrassed to be seen with me sometimes. Not simply because of my looks of course. And my son would never ever ever dream of admitting it. My husband refers to it on occasion.
I *know* it's not important. Or at least that it shouldn't be. But study after study after study show it is.
But never mind. I know it's a difficult topic, and I don't wish to make anyone uncomfortable.
It was just such a new thing in therapy for me.
Posted by seldomseen on October 10, 2009, at 18:33:11
In reply to Re: Homely then » toetapper, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2009, at 9:20:30
Having read this whole thread, I see the value in your interaction with your therapist. Sometimes I think reflexive denials are so transparent that we end up seeing right through them and resenting the person.
Sometimes it's enough to make a person want to just yell "enough already" let's talk about the real issue here. "this is what *I* think and I want to talk about it with you". I think to constantly hear "you're beautiful" or something along those lines, when one truly does not believe it could be very tiring, if not negating of one's feelings.
I don't know what you look like on the outside, and frankly I don't really care. You've shown me tremendous beauty, fragility, wisdom and the complexity of Dinah here on babble.
That trumps long legs, big hair and symmetrical features any day in my book
I look forward to, and hope you decide to share this latest phase of your therapy with us here on babble. I think it will lead you to a lot of peace and bridge the divide that you feel. I think you will get a lot of comfort from this line of inquiry.
Peace to you.
Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on October 11, 2009, at 9:00:08
In reply to Re: Homely then » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on October 10, 2009, at 18:33:11
Thank you, Seldom. :)
My feelings are so conflicting on the topic. On the one hand, I really do think my mother is ugly, so when I see her face in my mirror, I see ugly. But my grandma was beautiful, and she looked more or less the same.
And the most romantic thing I've ever seen on screen was when coach's daughter (played by Allyce Beasley) was trying to point out that she deserved nothing better than her lout of a fiance. She begs him to look at her. He stares and says that he hadn't realized how much she looks like her mother. She starts to point out that that was the problem, when she sees her father's look of blank incomprehension and amends it to "Mom was not... comfortable with her beauty." His reply that that made her even more beautiful and that she grew more beautiful every day of her life was pure romance of the real variety. Forget Rhett sweeping Scarlett upstairs. It reminded me of how Grandpa looked at Grandma.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ6rwZg-J9w
(about 2:40 in)
Yet my other feelings are very real either. I never think of myself as pretty, I wasn't even a pretty child. But I was comfortable with being a ridiculously skinny kid, always tan, with thin blonde hair that was always falling out of its ponytails, shirttail askew, and socks that slid down into my shoes. What I see now just isn't me.
Then of course there are the practical issues that I really ought to lose fifty pounds or so.
It's complicated, and I'm glad that I'll be able to really discuss it with him.
Posted by antigua3 on October 11, 2009, at 11:09:45
In reply to Re: Homely then » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 21:33:13
I'd like to hear "reflexive denial" every once in a while...
Haven't you mentioned before that "attractiveness" is important to your T?
I don't see you as unattractive or homely, and I just wonder if he's projecting here...
just an off the wall thought,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on October 11, 2009, at 14:11:05
In reply to Re: Homely then » Dinah, posted by antigua3 on October 11, 2009, at 11:09:45
The oddest things bring me comfort. :)
Though they all seem to have his being authentic at the core of them. And this from me! I've always been so adamant about preferring my truth beveled and polished. I must really really trust how much he cares for me. I must really feel loved and secure when I'm with him. I don't think I'd like just anyone agreeing that I'm ugly.
No doubt his ideas about attractiveness do pay a role, and I'm positive he'd like me to dress better and wear makeup. But strangely enough, I don't know that he sees me as being as unattractive as he used to see me, even though my looks have gotten worse, not better, with age. But he cares for me now, and sees the inner me as well as the outer me. I used to show him a picture at the beginning of each session of me as a child so that he'd have in mind what I *really* looked like.
I think I see a common theme in my writing. I think perhaps it's not being unattractive that really bothers me, so much as it is being unattractive in the same way as my mother. When I was growing up, everyone said I looked like Daddy. Same dark circles under the eyes, and big ears, and skinny skinny frame. I don't think I'll ever be reconciled to looking in the mirror and seeing my mother looking back. My feelings about her are so mixed and overlaid with things that...
Well, to look like my mother is the worst thing possible to me.
Posted by rnny on October 12, 2009, at 22:19:05
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » obsidian, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 20:06:36
On one of the other boards here, someone posted pictures of their new puppy! Why not post a picture of yourself and we will give you feedback.
Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2009, at 22:54:15
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly, posted by rnny on October 12, 2009, at 22:19:05
I don't think I'd feel as comfortable being as honest as I am here if I weren't as anonymous. :)
I tried to look hard at myself today. It's amazingly hard to do.
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2009, at 16:28:28
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » obsidian, posted by 10derHeart on October 9, 2009, at 20:50:59
He said more or less what 10der said.
He says I do indeed overall have the same sort of look as Susan Boyle.
He tried to say I looked better than my mother, but since he'd once seen a photo of my mother in her thirties or forties and thought she was me, he had to retract that.
He finally settled on yes, there is a strong family resemblance. But he thinks I have a prettier smile than my mother. Which is only in his imagination, because really neither of us has a particularly pretty smile.
He did point out that if I looked more like Daddy when I was younger, and more like my mother now, it was likely because I had gained weight and if I lost weight I'd look less like her.
So... I didn't want to leave it with a misleading impression of his stance. He won't actually acknowledge that I'm ugly.
Posted by Phillipa on October 13, 2009, at 22:38:51
In reply to Ok, he doesn't, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2009, at 16:28:28
Dinah I still say your're a beautiful person. Phillipa ps been gone all day.
Posted by workinprogress on October 14, 2009, at 1:04:19
In reply to Ok, he doesn't, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2009, at 16:28:28
Dinah-
I've been following this thread and had numerous thoughts, but no time to write until now.
I would say this... 1st- there's the pat "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", which is true. It absolutely is. One can grow in attraction to someone because of time, perspective, expectations, and just plain getting to know someone.
2nd- I so so so get the idea that, "wow, if we're willing to be that frank, then he really does care for me, knows me, and is willing to be absolutely honest and present with me". And that Dinah, that is ****ing beautiful. Really really beautiful and amazing. Probably one of the most beautiful things we can ask for in life. For someone to love *all* of you, without equivocation.
3rd- I don't think any of that is negated by him clarifying with you, or the shifting of your perspective of what he meant/said. Just having the conversation is, well, that's just it. And I do think he is being entirely honest with you (so it isn't negated)... because he, like so many have expressed here, probably doesn't see things so black and white.
4th- If you do want to go black and white in terms of what "people"- whomever they are- deem beautiful or ugly, well, maybe you weren't particularly blessed in that arena. In terms of some arbitrary standard of what's "beautiful" or "ugly". But, it's still just arbitrary. And what people are saying here is that that's just one piece of it and it's not only arbitrary and not the perspective of all- it's not universal.
5th- You have some, but not *lots* of control over how you look. You can change the way you dress, get help with makeup or clothing choices, or lose some weight. But, to a certain extent, we've got what we've got. It is not by any means a reflection of "who you are" or certainly your "goodness" or "worth". Some people may look at it that way, but really, are you going to hold much stock in people judging you for what you had no choice in? I'm guessing, with all the work you've done... not so much.
6th- I don't think #5 is what you're "saying" at all. But, I think in this society, it's pretty hard to really embody and embrace #5... I know I struggle with it. So, my guess is that it's probably a struggle with you underneath all of this discussion (how could it not be in our society of stick thin models with perfect skin?)
7th- This is the part that's been in all my responses in my head to you during this thread. What I *know* of Dinah is that you are incredibly beautiful. You are always able to give perspective, to offer insight and feedback to those on this board. But, everything you say is laced with love, caring and respect. Even when you're challenging or strongly disagreeing with someone, I feel love laced throughout your words. You see the light, the sunshine, the beauty in *everyone*. That, my friend, is immeasurably beautiful. I hope someday to be able to put aside my own insecurities and lace love throughout my interactions, to see the sunshine in everyone. To offer everyone light....
That Dinah, is beauty I've seen in few others in my experience. So, regardless of the other 6... I hope you'll give yourself credit for that one, because I think that, and you, is/are among the most truly beautiful things I've encountered.
xo
WIP
Posted by Dinah on October 14, 2009, at 7:32:07
In reply to Re: Ok, he doesn't » Dinah, posted by workinprogress on October 14, 2009, at 1:04:19
That is really beautiful, and I think it actually got through to me. I have to go to the office, but I'll think on this today.
(And you've totally understood how I feel about discussing this topic with my therapist. It really is a reflection of the safety I feel with him.)
Posted by rskontos on October 14, 2009, at 13:48:37
In reply to My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 11:57:42
Dinah,
I have been gone for a while. Doing other things mostly. Trying to sort myself out as well. I came back here and read this thread and it hurt me for you to think of yourself in those terms. But I do, believe I understand when you hate the reflection of yours that echos your mother. I too often feel I look like my mother and I want to tear out that image in my head. I might look like her but I am not like her. I worked hard at being a good mother and person. Of which she was neither.
Now. I think that maybe you hate the outside reflection of you that doesn't match what you feel inside. It is hard to look at ourselves and not see all the bad we perceive out there. Perhaps further down the road when we feel more settled with ourselves we can the outside for what it really is. I don't know.
I do know that I went to an exercise retreat. It did me a world of good because I put myself out there and let strangers see me. The part of me I always hide. It was hard, I got panicky. I even went up on stage and told my journey of how I arrived at that point. It was scary but so good for me. Only triggered one panic attack which I was able to focused down with only self talk. No meds. I only dissociated a few times. Mostly I stayed present.
I did win (not sure it was a prize) a chance to have my photo taken by a professional, with a professional makeup artist and hair professional. I hate my photo. Because it reflects someone I don't think I am right now.
Is that how you might feel sometimes? The outside reflects someone you aren't really. If so, you have company.
I feel you are a beautiful person. At this Retreat, there were women of all sizes, shapes, colors and bodies. But each one was special and lovely in her own right. Most were of a type most people would not want to be, but they were there doing something for themselves because they were worth it. I applauded each person and her story. Each person had a beautiful spirit.
That beauty of spirit is what we see here. Maybe one day, you can blend the two, the outside with the inside, and be ok with it.
I hope that is what your conversations with your T leads to. A new identity of what is inside and out. And how the two can live in harmony.Take care, you're a beauty inside and out.
Rsk
Posted by workinprogress on October 15, 2009, at 0:57:04
In reply to Re: Ok, he doesn't » workinprogress, posted by Dinah on October 14, 2009, at 7:32:07
Dinah-
I'm so glad I might have been able to be helpful. And believe me, I so get that the crux of this message was about the relationship and what this conversation meant for its progress/development/deepening. Very cool stuff.
I'd be honored if you kept us posted on how this conversation continues.
WIP
> That is really beautiful, and I think it actually got through to me. I have to go to the office, but I'll think on this today.
>
> (And you've totally understood how I feel about discussing this topic with my therapist. It really is a reflection of the safety I feel with him.)
Posted by Dinah on October 16, 2009, at 8:29:42
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » Dinah, posted by rskontos on October 14, 2009, at 13:48:37
It sounds interesting, the exercise retreat. I am very very bad at exercise, and I suspect if I want to lose weight, that is the key. Over the years I've begun to eat less and less, and at this point I don't think my eating really justifies my weight. Although what I do eat is probably mainly carbs. Fitting in exercise is so hard, though. If I have extra time and energy, I think I ought to use it on the doggies or household stuff. Although it might be turning cool soon, and my dog would appreciate some walks. Actually, both would.
I do think, to a large extent, it is the disconnect. I think it would bother anyone to look in the mirror and see someone they don't recognize as themselves, even if they *liked* what they saw, never mind if they don't. That's why I spend what is for me an outrageous sum getting my hair colored to an approximation of what it was when I was younger. And why I was a real sucker for last summer's clothes that were so much what I wore when I was younger. My therapist got a bit irritated last session because I ask him so often if he sees the me that I really am as well as the physical body in front of him.
I'm glad you guys see the inner me here. I think that's one reason I like Babble so much, and feel so comfortable here.
How have you been doing lately? I don't think I'm up to date with you.
Posted by Dinah on October 16, 2009, at 8:37:41
In reply to Re: Ok, he doesn't » Dinah, posted by workinprogress on October 15, 2009, at 0:57:04
Sometimes my therapist and I have a session, or group of sessions, that really reaches me, and changes my life. Of course, my therapist says it really isn't *just* that session. It's all the sessions that led up to it. One session so enormously helped with my issues about sex that I no longer count it as a "major" issue in my life, after an entire adult lifetime when it really really was.
I won't say I suddenly like my reflection in the mirror, or would allow anyone to take my photo. But... I think yesterday I was able to look in the mirror and see a bit less distorted vision of myself than usual. Maybe I saw a bit of physical features that don't look like my mother, but are pure me. The fact that all of them aren't good differences doesn't matter a bit. :)
I'm also feeling a bit encouraged to try again to lose weight.
And if I probe that spot within, the shame over my feelings about my appearance feels less sore. And as you likely know, there are really two aspects to nearly all issues. The actual issue, and the overlay of shame and secrecy or anger or fear. I am struck with how useful therapy can be for at least the latter aspect. And when we're lucky, the former as well.
Now that I trust him enough to speak in complete openness of spirit.
Posted by Kath on October 16, 2009, at 12:13:02
In reply to Re: Ok, he doesn't » workinprogress, posted by Dinah on October 16, 2009, at 8:37:41
Wow Dinah - so many positive things in that last post.
I look in the mirror & see my lines & wrinkles. When I mention it to people, they say they hardly notice them. Some people say they Don't notice them! I have realized that when I look in the mirror I'm not smiling; not talking - just looking. When I'm with someone else, I'm interacting with them (well not if we're just companionably doing our own thing in each other's company)....so there's "life" in my face.
I send you hugs Dinah. To me you're a very beautiful person....wise, kind, patient etcetera...
love, Kath
Posted by Phillipa on October 16, 2009, at 19:45:44
In reply to Re: Ok, he doesn't » Dinah, posted by Kath on October 16, 2009, at 12:13:02
Kath I see in me what you see in you. Love Phillipa
Posted by Kath on October 16, 2009, at 19:58:30
In reply to Re: Ok, he doesn't » Kath, posted by Phillipa on October 16, 2009, at 19:45:44
Sort of hard to get used to. I don't FEEL old. But so many people do a double take when I say I'm 62 - even my son's friends who are in their early & mid 20's, so maybe it's not as bad as I think!!
:-(
Kath
Posted by Phillipa on October 16, 2009, at 22:22:21
In reply to Re: Ok, he doesn't » Phillipa, posted by Kath on October 16, 2009, at 19:58:30
I see the pics greg has taken and cringe. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2009, at 11:18:04
In reply to Re: Ok, he doesn't » Dinah, posted by Kath on October 16, 2009, at 12:13:02
I've been making a real effort to watch what I'm eating, since Friday. Not a diet precisely, and it's early days yet, but I'm trying and from a more positive viewpoint. I'm going to take my dog for a walk later today too.
I told my therapist that it's happened a few times lately. That we discussed something we may have discussed before, but not at the same level. And the binding of shame on each of those issues loosened. That doesn't end the issue of course, yet it really does bring peace to it.
I asked him if now that I truly truly trust him, if all my issues will be solved one after another. :)
And it only took fifteen years.
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2009, at 11:20:45
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » Dinah, posted by rskontos on October 14, 2009, at 13:48:37
You know, I think I'm likely underplaying the role dissociation plays in this. I know at least part of the issue is that I don't have a unified self image, and that in many ways I don't feel connected to myself. My body/face/etc is just one of the more obvious manifestations of that.
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