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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Ted on October 31, 2000, at 13:53:29
In reply to other message on my miscarriage and self-injury, posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 13:00:22
Hi Judy,
This is probably at least in part due to borderline personality disorder. This disorder affect women much more than men and its hallmark is self injury. If you do a search on "borderline personality disorder" in altavista (www.altavista.com) and read up a bit, you will start to understand a little. The question of why.... well if you could answer that, I am sure that a gold medal would be waiting for you in Stockholm (Nobel Prize).
I suppose it is possible you have dissociative identity disorder also. This is when you have multiple "selves". DID and BPD often occur together, but DID is much rarer. A trigger is often needed, usually trauma, such as sexual molestation or rape. Your miscarriage could be the trigger.
Until you get yourself under control, I think you should lock up all kitchen knives, razor blades, etc., and give the key to a trustworthy significant other for safekeeping.
Take care of yourself.
Ted
Posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 14:42:50
In reply to Re: other message on my miscarriage and self-injury, posted by Ted on October 31, 2000, at 13:53:29
Thank you very much for answering so quickly. I have been dxed with bipolar and panic disorders. I guess I thought that people with borderline personality cut because of rage, at least that is what I had read. I am not conscious of cutting, I had a psychologist who said that I did dissociate a lot so maybe that is part of it. I think that was a really good suggestion to get rid of razors in the house, that is what I am using. Thanks again.
Posted by shar on October 31, 2000, at 16:31:58
In reply to to Ted, posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 14:42:50
I can't remember where I read this, but it was about people who are really anxious/panicky sort of going into a "different world" as sort of a safety mechanism. The idea being, I believe, that there is something too threatening in the present environment to deal with (as Ted said, a trigger). Rage as a reaction to something that happened before you had control over your life, could be very terrifying and threatening, and I think could cause you to want to "get away" from it.
Anytime you are not here and now, it's possible to experience anything from forgetfulness, ending up somewhere in the house and wondering why you went there, or ending up at work and remembering nothing about the drive (I've done these things and the last is really scary, like "were all the lights I went thru green?"). In your case, I think you are distancing yourself more than the cases I mentioned, if you "wake up" to find you've been cutting.
Another instance, and it may not apply at all to you, is a form of seizure where you sort of trance out, but I doubt that would have cutting associated with it. If you are taking meds that lower seizure thresholds it might be worth looking at.
Finally, I think Ted's idea of a safe place for you is an excellent one. Until you are more here and now, locking up your razors, knives, scissors, etc. is a very good idea.
My counselor told me for my own dissociative tendencies (pretty minor ones) that physically paying attention to my body would help. Such as, saying my feet are on the ground and looking at them, my hands are in my pockets, I am in my living room, etc. Touching the chair "this is my dining room chair" being really physical.
She also said walking while paying attention to your feet hitting the ground and what your surroundings look like will help keep one "earth bound."
Good luck, and I hope that your tendencies to cut will lessen, as you feel stronger and more "in control" or present.
Shar
>
> Thank you very much for answering so quickly. I have been dxed with bipolar and panic disorders. I guess I thought that people with borderline personality cut because of rage, at least that is what I had read. I am not conscious of cutting, I had a psychologist who said that I did dissociate a lot so maybe that is part of it. I think that was a really good suggestion to get rid of razors in the house, that is what I am using. Thanks again.
Posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 17:10:41
In reply to Trancing Out » judy1, posted by shar on October 31, 2000, at 16:31:58
I am really watching the board because I'm afraid, so thank you Shar. I agree I don't think I have a seizure problem (I'm taking depakote and klonopin in addition to risperdal and an AD). So I guess I can't face things. I used to cut a lot when I was younger but I thought I was over it. Thank you for your suggestions, I will try some of them.
Posted by noa on October 31, 2000, at 19:02:10
In reply to other message on my miscarriage and self-injury, posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 13:00:22
A while back I read a book on self-injury called Cutting : Understanding and Overcoming Self-Mutilation
by Steven Levenkron (see Dr. Bob's "read" page, link at top of babble page). He said that there are two basic types of self-injury--with and without the dissociation.I don't think it necessarily calls for a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder, and actually, even if that Dx fits, it isn't all that helpful in addressing the self-injury, which Dr. Levenkron describes as a problem that many therapists haven't been trained to treat. Anyway, you might want to take a look at that book (I took it out from the library), as well as the book, Bodily Harm : The Breakthrough Healing Program for Self-Injurers
by Karen Conterio, Wendy Lader.
Also, the authors of Bodily Harm base their book on their experience running an organization called SAFE (Self Abuse Finally Ends) which runs specialized programs. There was a US website, but now all I could find was the Canadian SAFE website:
http://www.wwdc.com/safe/index.htm
Also, there are quite a few websites about self injury. Here is one:http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/injury.html
When you visit these sites, tho, keep in mind that cutting is also associated with other problems, and so a lot of the links that you will see may or may not be relevant for you. I think that there are probably many many different reasons self-injurious behaviors develop.
Posted by coral on October 31, 2000, at 20:08:47
In reply to to Ted, posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 14:42:50
Dear Judy,
Have you contacted your doctor? Are you alone? This is not a time to attempt to "tough it out alone." Make sure someone is with you. Having only one disassociative episode in my life, I vividly recall the bright, red blood gushing out of my arm in contrast with the stark white of the sink - with absolutely NO awareness that I was bleeding. My roommate walked in, took one look, and passed out cold. God as my witness, I distinctly remember thinking, "Gosh, I wonder what's wrong with her. I better help her." Get help and don't be alone. One technique I've heard of but can't verify its effectiveness is to keep setting an alarm clock or timer every thirty minutes (except when you're sleeping). Why it's happening or why you're doing it is less important right now - your emphasis MUST be on keeping yourself someplace safe. You're in my prayers.As far as BPD is concerned, my sister is BPD and the "causes" of BPD self-mutilation are tied in with other self-destructive behaviors such as promiscuous sex, drugs, alcohol abuse (lack of impulse control) or more commonly with an attempt to regain center stage, as an attention-getting mechanism. My sister multilates via surgeries, an extremely sophisticated form of BPD self-multilation. It's NOT a question IF she'll have another surgery, just when. One of the best websites for BPD is www.BPDcentral.com.
Posted by noa on October 31, 2000, at 20:29:40
In reply to BPD, posted by coral on October 31, 2000, at 20:08:47
>I vividly recall the bright, red blood gushing out of my arm in contrast with the stark white of the sink - with absolutely NO awareness that I was bleeding. My roommate walked in, took one look, and passed out cold. God as my witness, I distinctly remember thinking, "Gosh, I wonder what's wrong with her. I better help her."
The book "Cutting" describes this kind of event--I think the example was a teen who called 911 because her little sister was freaked out. You can guess the reason why the little sister was freaked out.
I agree with Coral about making a plan for safety. That is the number one priority.
Posted by noa on October 31, 2000, at 20:37:16
In reply to BPD, posted by coral on October 31, 2000, at 20:08:47
Re dissociation---people tend to think of DID (dissociative identity disorder) when dissociation is mentioned, but I don't believe dissociation always means DID. As was mentioned earlier, panic attacks can come with dissociation, and I think that there are probably lots of people who have variations of dissociative disorders but not the other aspects of DID (personality fragments, etc.)
Posted by Rzip on October 31, 2000, at 20:54:35
In reply to BPD, posted by coral on October 31, 2000, at 20:08:47
> Dear Judy,
I have experienced dissociative states as you described. Four techniques have TEMPORARILY helped:
(I call it shocking the whole system-- Body and Mind):
1) A very loud timer, set at 10 minute intervals (depend on the intensity of your state of mind) definitely helps me to bring me to reality for that split second to reset it. But every time you touch the timer, you have to consciously bring yourself back to reality. Try very very hard, focus.
* Also hide the timer in different places in your house so that when it goes off, you have to be annoyed enough to search for it. During that interim of searching, you want to focus on finding the timer in the real world. Focus on bring yourself back is the key.2) Coupled with the timer is to take a icy cold/boiling hot shower. When you find your personality slipping away, make an effort to head to the shower. Turn the icy COLD full blast (don't touch the hot handle). Step into the shower, you should physically feel a tremor descent from the top of your head, down the back of your spine. Absorb the coldness, stand under the shower until you feel your body adjust to it. Then, turn off the cold handle such that there is no water from the shower head. Let your body feel the uncomfortness for a couple of seconds (or step out of the shower). Then turn on the hot handle full blast (no cold water) and step back in. Again, let your body be physically "shocked". Tremor. Thirdly, step out of the shower for the 2nd time. Adjust the Hot/Cold handles to a warm-comfortable temperature and let your body get normalized.
* This technique works very well for me. However, I think it works because I usually take a warm temperatured shower. But the idea here is to physically shock your body and mind.
3) Physically mimic the anxiety and confusion going on in your mind. To do this, sit down at a NOT SO comfortable hard-back seat and physically tap your left or right knee (only one of the two) up and down in a nervous gesture.
* Here you want to act out the internal tumorial. This could be coupled with the next step...
4) While the muscles in your knee is going up and down...sent out a babbling dissociative e-mail to PB.
* The e-mail is a mechanism to act out your mind. Just babble over the net.
The above four steps has worked well for me in numerous times. The most recent one this morning. The key is that you always want to be CONSCIOUSLY PHYSICALLY OCCUPIED.
For me, the dissociative states occur at dawn (two or three consecutive mornings now), how about you?
Hope the above helps,
Rzip
Posted by alicefranklin on October 31, 2000, at 21:09:36
In reply to other message on my miscarriage and self-injury, posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 13:00:22
www.priory.com/dbt.htm
Posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 23:34:00
In reply to Re: BPD, posted by Rzip on October 31, 2000, at 20:54:35
> For me, the dissociative states occur at dawn (two or three consecutive mornings now), how about you?
Yes!! It happened at 4 this morning. I'm sorry you are going through this also, but it helps me to know I'm not alone. There were a lot of very good suggestions in your letter, and I recognized myself. Take care.
Posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 23:40:12
In reply to BPD, posted by coral on October 31, 2000, at 20:08:47
Thank you for your prayers. I'm not alone, but that doesn't seem to stop my behavior. I will try the timer, Rzip mentioned it also. My sleep is getting messed up now, which sometimes brings on a manic or hypomanic episode, which would probably end this but cause other problems. I think I'm overwhelmed.
Posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 23:47:26
In reply to Re: BPD, posted by noa on October 31, 2000, at 20:29:40
Thank you for all the sites and the books you mentioned. I did visit one site and learned a lot. I wish I had a shrink I could trust enough to work this out, but I don't have that option. So far, no stitches, and I am trying to do a good job keeping my wounds clean. I slept in the other room last night and there was blood all over the sheets, I just feel disgusted with myself.
Posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 23:51:53
In reply to Re: other message on my miscarriage and self-injury » judy1, posted by alicefranklin on October 31, 2000, at 21:09:36
Thank you for the site, when and if I'm able to function, that would probably be a good type of therapy for me. Do you just call and ask therapists if they practice it?
Posted by shar on November 1, 2000, at 0:31:49
In reply to dbt- alicefranklin, posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 23:51:53
Judy1:
What options are available to you? You mentioned therapy was not an option. Is that for financial reasons?
What are your options?
What about a hospital stay? I say that because you are sounding like you are in deep, and I'd like to see you get some help.
What about Emotions Anonymous? Or something like that?
If you are not "functional" you need assistance! You should not have to go through this horrible time alone. I believe you are overwhelmed, and encourage you to get help tomorrow.
Shar
Posted by judy1 on November 1, 2000, at 1:07:10
In reply to What are your options for getting help?, posted by shar on November 1, 2000, at 0:31:49
Dear Shar,
I have access to a psychiatrist(s), it is not financial but fear. Fear of hospitals, of losing control of being hurt. But maybe i am already in this place. I am so afraid to go to sleep, thank you for sharing your insomnia with me. I am going to try very hard and call the psychiatrist tomorrow. I pray he won't be angry at me. Thank you for being here.
Posted by shar on November 1, 2000, at 1:13:32
In reply to Re: What are your options for getting help?- Shar, posted by judy1 on November 1, 2000, at 1:07:10
I can almost guarantee he will not be angry at you. I hope you will be frank with him about what you are going through AND that you are afraid of hospitals and of being hurt or losing control.
I think it is very important for you to call.
Shar> Dear Shar,
> I have access to a psychiatrist(s), it is not financial but fear. Fear of hospitals, of losing control of being hurt. But maybe i am already in this place. I am so afraid to go to sleep, thank you for sharing your insomnia with me. I am going to try very hard and call the psychiatrist tomorrow. I pray he won't be angry at me. Thank you for being here.
Posted by judy1 on November 1, 2000, at 1:30:26
In reply to What are your options for getting help? » judy1, posted by shar on November 1, 2000, at 1:13:32
I just left a message on his answering machine (thank you for the courage), he has a message that says he will call in the morning. It said if it was an emergency to call another number, but I think that means suicide. You and the others who are trying to help me are such good people, I don't deserve this. I will let you know what happens tomorrow.
Posted by coral on November 1, 2000, at 4:13:20
In reply to Shar, posted by judy1 on November 1, 2000, at 1:30:26
Dear Judy,
CONGRATULATIONS on calling the psychiatrist! That took a chunk of courage!
In your message, you said, "I don't deserve this." IF you mean you don't deserve to have Freddie Krueger with you, you're absolutely right. NO ONE deserves the terror, fear, pain and damage you're experiencing.
IF you mean you don't deserve what help we may be offering, yes, you do. You deserve every bit of help and hope that is possible in the world. Obviously, we care and want to help. I think it was Shar who called the people on this board a "tag team." Good description. I have no idea what's driving this, but the beast who is hanging around you right now is particularly malignant, vicious and a blight on life.
Please call your psychiatrist back and leave the message that this is an emergency or call the other number. Keep posting.
Coral
Posted by judy1 on November 1, 2000, at 11:03:55
In reply to Re: help, posted by coral on November 1, 2000, at 4:13:20
My psychiatrist was actually very nice, he had me go to my family doctor- I had to have several stitches (7), it was deeper than I thought. He (the shrink) said many of the things that all of you had mentioned (getting rid of sharp objects). We talked about suicide, I have ideation but I won't do it. I'm really exhausted right now, but I wanted to thank everyone first. Take care.
Posted by shar on November 1, 2000, at 12:02:16
In reply to Re: help- Coral and Shar, posted by judy1 on November 1, 2000, at 11:03:55
Judy,
Whew! I am a lot more relaxed about you now. So glad you talked to your shrink and went to your doc. Now, after a rest, do you need to make an appointment with your shrink? Or did you say you already have one?You have a lot of strength to be functioning so well, and keeping your head above water, with the Beast pulling at your feet. Above everything else, your health and heart and mind deserve loving care.
Shar
> My psychiatrist was actually very nice, he had me go to my family doctor- I had to have several stitches (7), it was deeper than I thought. He (the shrink) said many of the things that all of you had mentioned (getting rid of sharp objects). We talked about suicide, I have ideation but I won't do it. I'm really exhausted right now, but I wanted to thank everyone first. Take care.
Posted by Noa on November 1, 2000, at 16:32:01
In reply to Re: BPD-Rzip, posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 23:34:00
>
> > For me, the dissociative states occur at dawn (two or three consecutive mornings now), how about you?
> Yes!! It happened at 4 this morning. I'm sorry you are going through this also, but it helps me to know I'm not alone. There were a lot of very good suggestions in your letter, and I recognized myself. Take care.THis is interesting. Perhaps it is related to a sleep disorder? Nightmares triggering panic attacks?
Posted by Noa on November 1, 2000, at 16:33:32
In reply to Re: BPD- Noa, posted by judy1 on October 31, 2000, at 23:47:26
Perhaps you can find out from the SAFE Canada site if there are any SAFE-type group programs in your area. (maybe they can direct you to the US branch if you are in the US--as I said, a few months back, the US branch did have a web site).
Posted by Noa on November 1, 2000, at 16:35:17
In reply to Shar, posted by judy1 on November 1, 2000, at 1:30:26
> I just left a message on his answering machine
good!
Posted by Noa on November 1, 2000, at 16:37:00
In reply to That's good news. » judy1, posted by shar on November 1, 2000, at 12:02:16
> Judy,
good work. Get some rest, and keep us posted. I am proud of you for being courageous to reach out for help!
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