![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ksvt on January 6, 2001, at 9:58:05
One of my therapist's recent suggestions to help me out of a real down period now is to invite my 2 children (almost 13 and 15) to come in and meet with her (and me). I think she believes they should be better informed about what happens with me and she also thinks i need to hear from them that I'm not as much of a negative influence on them when i am depressed as I think I do. My younger child knows nothing about my depression, and I've had only a brief conversation with my 15 year old quite awhile ago. I wouldn't trust him even to remember that we talked about this. My kids are at an age where they share information with my husband and me very judiciously (eg very infrequently and not necessarily voluntarily). I have a tough time seeing myself putting them through what would be very awkward for all of us. I think my therapist is concerned about the degree of my isolation, but it also seems to me that by bringing all of this out in the open, the effect I have on them might be more manifest, and I might feel worse if I know they are trying to alter how they might otherwise behave, to accommodate my depression. Has anyone out there had this sort of experience, or have thoughts about this. My suffering is very silent - on the surface I function pretty well and there a very few people who even know I suffer from depression. thanks ksvt
Posted by Noa on January 6, 2001, at 10:57:53
In reply to Would like advice about therapist recommendation, posted by ksvt on January 6, 2001, at 9:58:05
I don't know--but I suspect that kids sense stuff on a gut level, and perhaps bringing it out into the open could demystify it somewhat, give a a name to something that they might have some sense is happening. If your therapist is worried about isolation, then is it possible that you withdraw from your kids when you are depressed, to shield them? If so, I wonder what they make of that, and perhaps talking about it could help them to understand it. I think starting a dialogue could be helpful, but first discuss it thoroughly with the therapist--what are the boundaries? How will it be presented to them? Will there be opps for further dialogue? Shouldn't your husband be part of the dialogue too?
Posted by stjames on January 6, 2001, at 16:49:25
In reply to Would like advice about therapist recommendation, posted by ksvt on January 6, 2001, at 9:58:05
I have a tough time seeing myself putting them through what would be very awkward for all of us.
James here.....
Maybe awkward for you but no doubt the kids know something is wrong already. Keep in mind that kids
see everything from their perspective and often assume they are to blame. Letting them know what is really going on is a good thing.james
Posted by ksvt on January 6, 2001, at 21:21:30
In reply to Re: Would like advice about therapist recommendation, posted by Noa on January 6, 2001, at 10:57:53
> Shouldn't your husband be part of the dialogue too?
I think my therapist envisions meeting with my husband and I at a different time. I'm sure one of the things we'd talk about is a kids meeting. Obviously I'd need his support on this. I'm not sure what my kids sense, other than that I'm irritable and crabby. I don't feel very positive or optamistic about anything these days, so it's hard for me to generate much enthusiasm about this. To me, it's just one more crummy thing I've put my family through. There is one aspect about this that does appeal. I worry alot about my passing along a proclivity for depression. I'm not a very good example to use to support the argument that depression is treatable, but I'd like my kids to be able to recognize the signs in themselves. I get pretty freaked by all the statistics about teen suicides. ksvt
Posted by shellie on January 6, 2001, at 22:35:09
In reply to Re: Would like advice about therapist recommendation, posted by ksvt on January 6, 2001, at 21:21:30
Hi ksvt,
I don't know about your therapist's suggestion. But of course, I don't know you or your kids, and your therapist I'm sure has a really good sense of you. But ages 13 to 15 are such self-centered ages that I'm not sure that they are not so self-absorbed at this moment that they are really noticing much about you. Having a therapy session with them at this point seems so formal to me and I wonder if they would not resent you as the center. Can you try letting them know at certain times that you are not feeling well inside, that you feel sad (or whatever). And ask them if they ever feel sad.
If you see any sign of depression in your children, I would get them into their own therapy--with you involved, of course.
On the other hand, I could be totally wrong.
Shellie
Posted by Racer on January 7, 2001, at 4:46:21
In reply to Would like advice about therapist recommendation, posted by ksvt on January 6, 2001, at 9:58:05
My advice, as an adult suffering from recurrant major depression, who grew up with a mother who suffered untreated depression: Do it.
Discuss it first with your therapist, and with your husband and probably both together. But do it.
Here's why:
Kids are so entirely self centered, self referent, during the teen years, that the outward manifestations of your depression probably bring up fears in them. Despite that wisdom which says that kids never talk to grownups, my experience is that inside every uncommunicative teen, there's a talkative ten year old yearning to get out -- if only someone will offer encouragement. Mind you, I've only been able to offer encouragement to other people's kids, because I'm unable to have children. Nonetheless, I've experienced so many teenagers telling me shyly, haltingly, their fears and insecurities, that I suspect your kids are inwardly wishing they knew why you are so unhappy about them.
Remember: kids are like little animals. They're phenomenally sensitive to body language and other non-verbal cues. This is part of their learning to judge their effect on their environment. Talking about your condition won't make them try to accommodate you, but it will likely relieve their level of anxiety a great deal. That sensitivity about non-verbal cues, coupled with that self-centeredness, probably has them thinking right now that they're so bad, they've turned out so far from what you wanted, that you're miserable because of them!
Maybe I'm wrong, but I am trying to help. I remember being about that age, and 'knowing' that my mother hated me because I'd ruined her life and been so bad that she could never be happy.
Guess what? I obediently screwed up in every possible way so that my mother could be right.
I'm twenty years older now, and only now starting to straighten my life out.
My mother? She's just as miserable now, and I see howshe's making herself miserable. It still hurts me, and it hurts more to know that I can't do anything to help her.
But it also makes me angry that I have to work so very hard to unlearn all the lessons she taught me about screwing up my life. And I'm still angry that she was so selfish as to maintain her depression and her victim status without seeking help for herself.
Again, this is from my perspective. This is what I see now, based on twenty some years of experience on top of those experiences. Your mileage will vary, but just in case: the best thing you can do for your kids is to get help for yourself. The next best thing you can do for yourself and your kids and the rest of us is to be open with them: help them learn that depression is not something so shameful that it must be hidden.
If you want to have something that has to be hidden, get a wart! Share your depression, because the light is the one true enemy of depression. Shame lives in the darkness, open the doors and windows and let your nearest and dearest see the world you live in. They will bring sunshine with them, and drive out the depression.
There, was that long winded enough? Best thoughts and wishes to you, and best luck on a successful, happy outcome for everyone.
Posted by ksvt on January 7, 2001, at 10:24:37
In reply to Re: DO IT!!! My advice:, posted by Racer on January 7, 2001, at 4:46:21
> God you guys, I can't believe you hit on so many of the things that have been worrying me. The different perspectives each of you takes sort of highlights my own internal debate about this. My kids are pretty self centered right now, as I'm sure I was at the same age. I remember pretty vividly the point when I recognized that I was capable of visibly hurting my father with something I said. I really resented him for being so weak and for making me, in a very non-verbal way, feel bad about my kneejerk teenage barbs. Sad to say, I've never quite gotten beyond that enmity, and I'd hate to have my kids grow up feeling the same way about me. So on the one hand, I'm fearful that they'll hate me for my own weaknesses ( and worse, the role they play in making me feel better or worse), and on the other, I'm afraid that I'm making them feel that they disappoint me, with all the negative messages I send. (it's unbelievably hard with teenagers to not spend a huge amount of time reminding them of things they don't want to do). I really appreciate all of the feedback i've gotten from everyone. You've helped give me a focus for discussions with my therapist and my spouse about whether and how this can work. I feel alot less anxious about it ( at least for the moment) and more intrigued with the possibilities such a session might hold. Thanks again ksvt PS: BTW Racer - how go the job wars?
My advice, as an adult suffering from recurrant major depression, who grew up with a mother who suffered untreated depression: Do it.
>
> Discuss it first with your therapist, and with your husband and probably both together. But do it.
>
> Here's why:
>
> Kids are so entirely self centered, self referent, during the teen years, that the outward manifestations of your depression probably bring up fears in them. Despite that wisdom which says that kids never talk to grownups, my experience is that inside every uncommunicative teen, there's a talkative ten year old yearning to get out -- if only someone will offer encouragement. Mind you, I've only been able to offer encouragement to other people's kids, because I'm unable to have children. Nonetheless, I've experienced so many teenagers telling me shyly, haltingly, their fears and insecurities, that I suspect your kids are inwardly wishing they knew why you are so unhappy about them.
>
> Remember: kids are like little animals. They're phenomenally sensitive to body language and other non-verbal cues. This is part of their learning to judge their effect on their environment. Talking about your condition won't make them try to accommodate you, but it will likely relieve their level of anxiety a great deal. That sensitivity about non-verbal cues, coupled with that self-centeredness, probably has them thinking right now that they're so bad, they've turned out so far from what you wanted, that you're miserable because of them!
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but I am trying to help. I remember being about that age, and 'knowing' that my mother hated me because I'd ruined her life and been so bad that she could never be happy.
>
> Guess what? I obediently screwed up in every possible way so that my mother could be right.
>
> I'm twenty years older now, and only now starting to straighten my life out.
>
> My mother? She's just as miserable now, and I see howshe's making herself miserable. It still hurts me, and it hurts more to know that I can't do anything to help her.
>
> But it also makes me angry that I have to work so very hard to unlearn all the lessons she taught me about screwing up my life. And I'm still angry that she was so selfish as to maintain her depression and her victim status without seeking help for herself.
>
> Again, this is from my perspective. This is what I see now, based on twenty some years of experience on top of those experiences. Your mileage will vary, but just in case: the best thing you can do for your kids is to get help for yourself. The next best thing you can do for yourself and your kids and the rest of us is to be open with them: help them learn that depression is not something so shameful that it must be hidden.
>
> If you want to have something that has to be hidden, get a wart! Share your depression, because the light is the one true enemy of depression. Shame lives in the darkness, open the doors and windows and let your nearest and dearest see the world you live in. They will bring sunshine with them, and drive out the depression.
>
> There, was that long winded enough? Best thoughts and wishes to you, and best luck on a successful, happy outcome for everyone.
Posted by julesvox on January 7, 2001, at 11:17:40
In reply to Re: advice - shellie and racer, posted by ksvt on January 7, 2001, at 10:24:37
>I remember pretty vividly the point when I recognized that I was capable of visibly hurting my father with something I said. I really resented him for being so weak
ksvt--i'm thinking that this is an important stage for kids to go through, one that's painful but necessary in all families. hopefully kids can come out on the other side with new respect for parents. like you, i never got to the other side but grew up believing i was entirely responsible for my parents' feelings and both despising them and feeling completely unable to separate myself from their pain. i tried to be the model child to make them happier, my sister was the bad child to try to get love & boundaries, but neither worked.
>Share your depression, because the light is the one true enemy of depression.
amen Racer. i hate that it was not OK to talk about my mom's depression and that it became a shameful thing. i wish it had been OK to talk about how much pain she was in and how my sister & i felt about it. i know now that she was suicidal and i'm not really surprised; i think i knew (though i dont' know if it would've been appropriate to be told that as a kid).
now that i'm in treatment for clinical depression--prob. hereditary--i wish i could really talk to my parents about it. that shame is still there. so i'm doing my healing in other relationships.
i hope talking to your kids works out for you. if nothing else, i wonder if your anxiety around it is enough reason to at least really deal with that possibility w/your partner.
all best,
j.
Posted by quilter on January 8, 2001, at 0:48:36
In reply to Re: DO IT!!! My advice:, posted by julesvox on January 7, 2001, at 11:17:40
I agree with Racer. I just recently found out my 21 year old daughter is struggling with guilt because she did not tell anyone when she caught me reading a suicide related site shortly before my last attempt 3+ years ago. They need to know that this particular choice, this illness is not their responsibility. That you and your drs. and spouse are in charge of it, and will do your best to take care of it. They need to know that they can talk to you about this and that there are ways to get help. Both of my girls are now on meds for their depression. All I can do for them is to be willing to talk about our illness and to listen. Suffering in silence doesn't work, my mother tried that. Maybe the reverse won't work either, but it helps a bit with the guilt I feel for passing along this curse.
Quilter
Posted by ksvt on January 8, 2001, at 19:24:32
In reply to Re: DO IT!!! My advice:, posted by quilter on January 8, 2001, at 0:48:36
>To julesvox and quilter and others - I'm pretty overwelmed by the thoughtfulness of your responses. My therapist thinks that I will find out that my kids are not as aware or affected as I think they are. She also thinks, as many have expressed here, that they do sense alot. I really don't want them growing up thinking that they could not please me, or that I was disappointed in them - all of which i guess could be extrapolated from my negativity. Thanks ksvt
I agree with Racer. I just recently found out my 21 year old daughter is struggling with guilt because she did not tell anyone when she caught me reading a suicide related site shortly before my last attempt 3+ years ago. They need to know that this particular choice, this illness is not their responsibility. That you and your drs. and spouse are in charge of it, and will do your best to take care of it. They need to know that they can talk to you about this and that there are ways to get help. Both of my girls are now on meds for their depression. All I can do for them is to be willing to talk about our illness and to listen. Suffering in silence doesn't work, my mother tried that. Maybe the reverse won't work either, but it helps a bit with the guilt I feel for passing along this curse.
> Quilter
Posted by medlib on January 8, 2001, at 23:39:14
In reply to Re: DO IT!!! My advice:, posted by ksvt on January 8, 2001, at 19:24:32
kvst---
I'd like to share with you my experiences raising 2 teens as a divorced mother with life-long double dysthmia (during a time when tricyclic ADs were all that was available). I could not have hidden my depression had I wished to (I was too often too dysfunctional); but I *would* not have concealed it had I been able. My brother and I were raised by 2 successful, happily married, loving parents, who created a singularly toxic home environment simply by refusing to acknowledge that they *ever* experienced a negative emotion. When we had kids, my brother and I each focused on making home a place where communication of *all* emotions was encouraged. It may have been the only thing I did "right." Both my kids have told me that being able to talk about feelings was what enabled them to survive my depression relatively sane. Both report feeling damaged by it, mainly because they had no other emotional resources. Both are adults who are successful in relationships, education and employment; neither has needed therapy or meds for mental illness. I take *no* credit for this outcome; I feel lucky to have been able to not get in their way any more than I did.
I learned: (from my grown son) that I had no concept of what "support" really means; (from my daughter) that, altho many teens are very perceptive, none have the adult experience base necessary to draw consistently accurate conclusions from their perceptions. (Erroneous conclusions can be explosively harmful.) That kids model first, their parents (good *and* bad); second, the opposite of their parents; third, their peers, and lastly (if lucky), their own unique traits.
If one of your teens inherits or develops depression, do you really want him to hide it in shame-filled silence? (As you probably know, that way lies suicide for many teens.) Your husband could provide timely extra support to your kids (and you) if he knew it was needed. Can you deny him and them that opportunity?
IMHO, your kids need to know: that you have a chronic relapsing-remitting-type illness that is not your fault, or theirs. That neither you nor they can "fix" it, so neither blame nor "help" is acceptable. That you are getting the best help you can find in order to minimize the impact of your illness on their and your lives, but that sometimes the best available won't be enough, and you regret that. That it's okay (and normal) to be angry with each other, but that it's not okay to hurt others or themselves because of it. And, finally, that help is available (and not shameful to accept) for them, too, if they need it.
I I haven't been trite enough already, I have to agree with Racer about the light being Truth; my experience is that it *does* set you free.
Good luck and well wishes---medlib
> >To julesvox and quilter and others - I'm pretty overwelmed by the thoughtfulness of your responses. My therapist thinks that I will find out that my kids are not as aware or affected as I think they are. She also thinks, as many have expressed here, that they do sense alot. I really don't want them growing up thinking that they could not please me, or that I was disappointed in them - all of which i guess could be extrapolated from my negativity. Thanks ksvt
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree with Racer. I just recently found out my 21 year old daughter is struggling with guilt because she did not tell anyone when she caught me reading a suicide related site shortly before my last attempt 3+ years ago. They need to know that this particular choice, this illness is not their responsibility. That you and your drs. and spouse are in charge of it, and will do your best to take care of it. They need to know that they can talk to you about this and that there are ways to get help. Both of my girls are now on meds for their depression. All I can do for them is to be willing to talk about our illness and to listen. Suffering in silence doesn't work, my mother tried that. Maybe the reverse won't work either, but it helps a bit with the guilt I feel for passing along this curse.
> > Quilter
Posted by ksvt on January 9, 2001, at 7:02:20
In reply to Re: DO IT!!! My advice: » ksvt, posted by medlib on January 8, 2001, at 23:39:14
>
> I learned: (from my grown son) that I had no concept of what "support" really means; (from my daughter) that, altho many teens are very perceptive, none have the adult experience base necessary to draw consistently accurate conclusions from their perceptions. (
>
medlib - thanks for the response. Would you mind amplifying the statement about what you learned from your kids, particularly the part about you having no concept of what support really means? Thanks ksvt
Posted by medlib on January 9, 2001, at 17:06:11
In reply to Re: DO IT!!! My advice: » medlib, posted by ksvt on January 9, 2001, at 7:02:20
Kvst--
Glad to. I was worried about blathering on ad infinitum, or I would have been more explicit the first time. I realize it sounded unhelpfully cryptic.
My mother thought that her role as a mother offering loving support consisted of improving upon or perfecting her kids. She would say things like, "That's fine, dear. But next time you might want to..." I never figured out why what she said didn't feel good; I knew her intentions were good. Finally, my son clued me in, noting that unasked-for advice is *always* experienced as implied criticism, regardless of intent. "Real" support is *unqualified* approval or empathy, expressed verbally or nonverbally, of something that someone is, or does; it is most powerful when it is specific. I find this very difficult to pull off (maybe because I never experienced it). However, I have noticed that feedback from my efforts is pretty much along the lines my son described.
BTW, he feels that the best way to support teens generally is to allow them as much control over their lives as possible, always explaining all the consequences of all of their options beforehand--and not criticizing their choices, but also not protecting them from those consequences after the fact. He feels that objective information, including how their choices will affect your feelings and behavior is much more helpful than arbitrary rules. He calls this "basic respect" for the human being within an interning adult. Oddly, 3000 miles away, my brother (who is bipolar) independently came to the same conclusions and raised his son that way with excellent results. When I asked my son for an example of a supportive statement (I'm a bit slow to visualize what I've never encountered), he said, "I really like how you've...(fill in the blank)...; is there anything I can do to support you in this?" (Probably this comes from my tendency to extinguish any spark of interest I perceived in my kids, by inundating them with information and equipment, unasked.)
My daughter was always extremely perceptive of others' feelings; she noticed my withdrawn depression and pain. She concluded, however, that if I really loved her, I would "fix" myself and act more warmly loving to her, and that, because I didn't do that, I must think that she wasn't worth loving. She spent most of her teens very angry with me, and she acted out that anger in quite self-destructive ways. Sometimes, I think that teens are just as ego-centric as infants, though not, as infants, because that is all they can perceive. With teens, I think it is because they believe that they can affect or control only themselves. A more "normal" parent might have introduced them to a larger community that they could affect. Ah, well.
Finally found the "off" button. Well wishes--medlib
> >
> > I learned: (from my grown son) that I had no concept of what "support" really means; (from my daughter) that, altho many teens are very perceptive, none have the adult experience base necessary to draw consistently accurate conclusions from their perceptions. (
> >
> medlib - thanks for the response. Would you mind amplifying the statement about what you learned from your kids, particularly the part about you having no concept of what support really means? Thanks ksvt
Posted by Noa on January 9, 2001, at 17:47:28
In reply to Re: DO IT!!! My advice: » ksvt, posted by medlib on January 9, 2001, at 17:06:11
Medlib--I liked reading your observations about parenting. Sounds like you have a nice relationship with your son.
Last year, my mother said something that really pushed my buttons (one of many times in my life!)--I think it was when I needed to buy a car, and she questioned my judgment, saying something like, "how are you going to make the payments, you'll just end up in debt again, you'll never make anything of yourself," or something like that.
In discussing it with my therapist, he mentioned something about whether I would be able to accept a question about this without getting defensive, if it hadn't been put the way my mother put it.
I swear, I couldn't even imagine what a "good" way to ask the question would be---I didn't have a role model for asking hard questions without belittling! So, I asked him how he might ask his own daughter, were she an adult in similar circumstances. His response was that he might say something like, "Are you confident that you can manage the payments for this car?"
Wow. Once he gave me this example, I suddenly could picture how a parent could deal with the feelings of anxiety my mother had about this financial situation, even be able to communicate with their child about it, without having those feelings lead them to humiliate the child or convey a lack of faith in the child.
I often wonder what my life would be like if I had a parent who could do this, who could be honest without crushing my ego.
Posted by ksvt on January 9, 2001, at 20:31:47
In reply to Re: DO IT!!! My advice: » ksvt, posted by medlib on January 9, 2001, at 17:06:11
> medlib - your explanations of parenting styles are wonderful. I think my Dad was a little like your Mom. He always reminded us of things we should have done. The unqualified support is tough with teens because alot of their choices are made without your knowledge. My kids hate it when my husband and I ask them prying questions (defined as far as I can tell as any question), but it's awfully difficult not to try to solicit some information when none is being offered. Therefore you tend to find things out after the fact, and whatever info you do get is given grudgingly. There are times when I feel like most of my communications with my kids are trying to get them to do stuff they need to do like study for a test or do their homework or complete some chore they've been reminded of repeatedly. The alternative choice they've made, to watch TV for hours or play video games, is difficult to support in an unqualified way. Any suggestions of a way to have those conversations without passing along some implied criticism? ksvt
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.