![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 13:57:48
In reply to thank you, Lar, posted by Jai on November 22, 2003, at 8:06:58
> > > > Environmental toxicologist.
> > > >
> > > Wow, that's even more incredible than I thought !
> >
> > Why so?
>
> In my observation the marriage of a scientist and the environment is sweet. That you had choosen that direction shows your generosity that continues today.Ya, well...
> > Classic nervous breakdown. In a relatively brief period of time, I lost my academic world, my home, my life savings, my wife and kids, my health, my dad was near death, my eldest son was being investigated for a brain tumour (turned out to be migraines)....a tad too much stress.
> >
> >
> You definitely had much too much on your plate.Do you think?
> My partner's mental breakdown began with his 2 1/2 year old son's untimely death. Sometimes these life experiences precipitate a breakdown sometimes they accompany a breakdown that was coming anyway.
I think the distinction is moot.
> My mothers family of 7 children there were only 4 that made it to old age. Of the 3 who died much too young, one (he was the oldest) was a celebrated brilliant doctor and in his thirties became Bipolar and took his own life. Of the 4 that lived: 2 were alcoholics 2 bipolar. The two Bipolars were in my life since my birth. My mom and her brother.
I have 100% incidence in my male bloodline, both mood disorder and substance abuse.
> I have never liked anything but the truth. The truth is sometimes hard for people to take when it's so painful to hear.
Yes, I almost totally agree. There is one exception. There are those who say they will speak with brutal honesty, but they get off on the brutality, not the honesty.
> I was very careful not to burden others with my life struggles. Sometimes it was just too much and spilled over out of my control, I just could not contain it. People weren't all that exicted to hear about mental breakdowns: really they cringed and turned away.
I think it's a primal fear. That it can strike anyone.
> I am not afraid to hear about mental illness or look directly at what it's all about. I have my theories about mental illnesses. Sometimes I wished I had become a doctor....
It's never too late.
> I had the impression way back in the 1950's that it had something to do with diet and chemicals.
Factors, certainly. IMHO, an interaction between genetic influences and environmental stressors. Not one or the other, both at the same time.
> > You seem so kind and considerate to everyone who posts, so you must have this_____ under control...
> >
> My mother was not kind or considerate within her life & illnesses. So I appreicate kindness when I see it.My mom, the same. Birds of a feather?
> > Thank you. I manage, but I'm not well, ya know?
> I guessed you might be having a hard time but when you chat on these babble topics you appear so healthy... Honestly I don't know how you are not well?It feels like my breakdown was literally that. Something seems permanently altered. I am a different man than I was before. I simply do not have the capacity or endurance that I once had. Nothing at all like it, in fact.
> If you care to share I would love to hear. I hope I am not being too much. I am totally sincere.
Current diagnoses include: treatment-resistant major depression, dysthymia (so-called double depression), chronic fatigue syndrome, acute PTSD, chronic PTSD, chronic insomnia, irritable bowel syndrome. I don't quite meet the criteria for fibromyalgia, but my doctor calls it that anyway. Others, too.
I have stabilized my mood, without medication, via nutritional supplements. I manage the others with conceptualizations such as a daily assessment of my energy budget, and similar. I'm doing much better than I was, but I am not yet well. The trend is upwards, but it is two steps forward, one step back.
> Thanks Lar, for being so up front with me.
You're welcome.
> You don't have to answer my questions if you don't want to. I will totally accept what ever you want to do.
> JaiWell, I guess you know by now how I handled the questions, eh?
Lar
Posted by Jai on November 22, 2003, at 17:51:57
In reply to Re: thank you, Lar » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 13:57:48
> > You definitely had much too much on your plate.
>
> Do you think?Well yes I do.
Sometimes these life experiences precipitate a breakdown sometimes they accompany a breakdown that was coming anyway.
>
> I think the distinction is moot.I think the end result is the same but the getting there is different.
> >
> I have 100% incidence in my male bloodline, both mood disorder and substance abuse.
>
At what age is the onset? Or did it appear all your life?
>
There is one exception. There are those who say they will speak with brutal honesty, but they get off on the brutality, not the honesty.
>
That sounds like abuse, not honesty. It seems like that is a way of shoving people away and not letting them in close.
> I think it's a primal fear. That it can strike anyone.Well my family is in mortal fear of Bipolar striking after 30 years old.
>
Sometimes I wished I had become a doctor....
> It's never too late.what a sweet sentiment. My mind is too old to go through the rigors of med school.
>
> > My mother was not kind or considerate within her life & illnesses.
My mom, the same. Birds of a feather?
>
Your mom was mentally abusive? Was she mentally ill? How did you move through this?> It feels like my breakdown was literally that. Something seems permanently altered. I am a different man than I was before. I simply do not have the capacity or endurance that I once had. Nothing at all like it, in fact.
> Current diagnoses include: treatment-resistant major depression, dysthymia (so-called double depression), chronic fatigue syndrome, acute PTSD, chronic PTSD,
>
Did you try EMDR?
>
chronic insomnia, irritable bowel syndrome. I don't quite meet the criteria for fibromyalgia, but my doctor calls it that anyway. Others, too.
>
Have you tried the following for your intestines:
1. Garden of life Primal Defense?
2. Renew Life Oil Smart?
>
What happens to you with Valerian?
stimulated?
> I have stabilized my mood, without medication, via nutritional supplements.
>
what works? What do you take per day?I manage the others with conceptualizations
such as a daily assessment of my energy budget, and similar. I'm doing much better than I was, but I am not yet well. The trend is upwards, but it is two steps forward, one step back.
>
Your communications have a lot of energy behind them. Kindness takes energy.
I hope to hear from you.
Jai
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2003, at 8:02:46
In reply to what can I say?, posted by Jai on November 22, 2003, at 17:51:57
> > > You definitely had much too much on your plate.
> >
> > Do you think?
>
> Well yes I do.You couldn't see the twinkle in my eye, from over there, eh?
> Sometimes these life experiences precipitate a breakdown sometimes they accompany a breakdown that was coming anyway.
> >
> > I think the distinction is moot.
>
> I think the end result is the same but the getting there is different.What I meant was, something was already triggering a breakdown that was coming anyway. It is more a definitional distinction to discriminate the way you had chosen to do than a procedural one. Breakdowns are triggered, but an observer may have seen each trigger over time, or only the latter ones.
Or, did I misunderstand, and you were discriminating between precipitating events and sequelae?
> > >
> > I have 100% incidence in my male bloodline, both mood disorder and substance abuse.
> At what age is the onset? Or did it appear all your life?My mood thing was always there. My brother's too. I don't know about the others. Substance abuse began with availability. Even my dad acknowledged that much.
> >
> There is one exception. There are those who say they will speak with brutal honesty, but they get off on the brutality, not the honesty.
> >
> That sounds like abuse, not honesty.I just wanted to make a point that honesty should also include honest feelings, e.g. respect and empathy.
> It seems like that is a way of shoving people away and not letting them in close.
I consider it to be emotional sadism.
> > I think it's a primal fear. That it can strike anyone.
>
> Well my family is in mortal fear of Bipolar striking after 30 years old.Late onset....wow. Most often occurs by in puberty/early adulthood, I think.
> Sometimes I wished I had become a doctor....
> > It's never too late.
>
> what a sweet sentiment.Truly, I do believe it. It's never too late.
> My mind is too old to go through the rigors of med school.
That is, of course, a reasonable consideration. If it weren't for the abuse endured in residency, I'd be there.
> > > My mother was not kind or considerate within her life & illnesses.
> My mom, the same. Birds of a feather?
> >
> Your mom was mentally abusive?Emotionally. My dominant memories are of terror. Moreover, I have no recollection, ever, of being so much as hugged. It may have happened, but I don't recall it....it certainly and absolutely did not happen enough.
> Was she mentally ill?
Oh, probably.
> How did you move through this?
12-stepping, at least in part. Addiction does have its blessings.
> > It feels like my breakdown was literally that. Something seems permanently altered. I am a different man than I was before. I simply do not have the capacity or endurance that I once had. Nothing at all like it, in fact.
> > Current diagnoses include: treatment-resistant major depression, dysthymia (so-called double depression), chronic fatigue syndrome, acute PTSD, chronic PTSD,
> Did you try EMDR?
Yes. It worked wonders on the acute form, but I ran out of treatments before trying to address the other.
> chronic insomnia, irritable bowel syndrome. I don't quite meet the criteria for fibromyalgia, but my doctor calls it that anyway. Others, too.
> >
> Have you tried the following for your intestines:
> 1. Garden of life Primal Defense?No.
> 2. Renew Life Oil Smart?
I use a lot of essential oils...is that what's in there?
> >
> What happens to you with Valerian?
> stimulated?How the heck did you know that?
> > I have stabilized my mood, without medication, via nutritional supplements.
> >
> what works? What do you take per day?That would be a separate post, and I'm not "there" mentally at the minute.
> I manage the others with conceptualizations
> such as a daily assessment of my energy budget, and similar. I'm doing much better than I was, but I am not yet well. The trend is upwards, but it is two steps forward, one step back.
> >
> Your communications have a lot of energy behind them. Kindness takes energy.Aren't you a dear person.
What you say is true, but....I get energy back from what I do, too.
> I hope to hear from you.
> JaiAnd you.
Lar
Posted by Jai on November 23, 2003, at 10:45:50
In reply to Re: what can I say? » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2003, at 8:02:46
> You couldn't see the twinkle in my eye, from over there, eh?
>
It's a funny thing about this board, I am so nervous to respond with humor. One persons humor can be anothers insult.
> Or, did I misunderstand, and you were discriminating between precipitating events and sequelae?
>
For example: my mother's family has late onset bipolar. My mother gave birth to me when she was 33 (perfect set up for the onset) But the previous birth (my sibling) was very upsetting and deadly. They both almost died. So my mother was terribly afraid to be pregnant again. Irish & Catholics in the 1950's etc....
She did and it was me. It was poisonous from the conception...it's a mircle I am still alive and that was only the beginning. So between the pregnancy and the timing she went into a tail spin. Back then they used insulin shock treatment...oh boy this it getting too long. Anyway she had breakdowns every 2 to 2 1/2 years of my life. She just died this year and we had her funeral on Aprils Fools day (not our choice believe me)......the whole story could fill a book.
so to get back to the point, I saw every breakdown coming and got real good at spotting the signs. God what a job for child?!! So it appears she might have had them anyway but who knows she never had time to recover and really rest. p.s. (She also has late onset Schizophrenia) > > > >
> I just wanted to make a point that honesty should also include honest feelings, e.g. respect and empathy.
>
Very good point and I may say you are a good example.
> Emotionally. My dominant memories are of terror.We are birds of a feather.
>
Moreover, I have no recollection, ever, of being so much as hugged. It may have happened, but I don't recall it....it certainly and absolutely did not happen enough.
>
I too was not given enough physical love (throw in some sexual abuse!!)and support. It took me forever as an adult to be able to get massages. Now I love it. It took me a long time to accept love and kindness. All that broke down and now I feel so much more open.
> > Current diagnoses include: treatment-resistant major depression, dysthymia (so-called double depression),I have never heard of this double depression, it sounds so intense. Should I look it up or can you share about it?
>
chronic fatigue syndrome
>
it sounds like the negative stuff is still in your tissues. have you heard of reconnection therapy? My sister does it to her clients. I have never done it myself. I guess she helps people release.
> Yes. It worked wonders on the acute form, but I ran out of treatments before trying to address the other.
>
I did EMDR for a solid year and I am amazed to see who I am now. For one thing I don't tremble anymore...I used to store tension in my body all the time. I used to have one emotional reaction to everything...FEAR. No longer, I have choices now.
> 2. Renew Life Oil Smart?
> I use a lot of essential oils...is that what's in there?
>
What essential oils do you use? Renew Life makes Oil Smart, a formula that helps in irritable bowel syndrome. It's a supplement.
> What happens to you with Valerian? stimulated?
> How the heck did you know that?
>
What's with that? Do you know why it does that? It almost seems toxic.
I hope to hear from you again.
It's a beautiful day out and I am off to see some birds, hopefully. Last night we went out canoeing & saw a river otter. It was so moving than I had tears running down my face. I have never seen one alive before. It was so curious about us...it came in real close to get a good look. It went away and came back and barked at us in a friendly way.
talk to you soon.
Jai
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2003, at 11:53:24
In reply to humor , posted by Jai on November 23, 2003, at 10:45:50
> > You couldn't see the twinkle in my eye, from over there, eh?
> >
> It's a funny thing about this board, I am so nervous to respond with humor. One persons humor can be anothers insult.Ya, I know, but I was teasing you.
> > Or, did I misunderstand, and you were discriminating between precipitating events and sequelae?
> >
> For example: my mother's family has late onset bipolar. My mother gave birth to me when she was 33 (perfect set up for the onset) But the previous birth (my sibling) was very upsetting and deadly. They both almost died. So my mother was terribly afraid to be pregnant again. Irish & Catholics in the 1950's etc....
> She did and it was me. It was poisonous from the conception...it's a mircle I am still alive and that was only the beginning. So between the pregnancy and the timing she went into a tail spin. Back then they used insulin shock treatment...oh boy this it getting too long. Anyway she had breakdowns every 2 to 2 1/2 years of my life. She just died this year and we had her funeral on Aprils Fools day (not our choice believe me)......the whole story could fill a book.
> so to get back to the point, I saw every breakdown coming and got real good at spotting the signs. God what a job for child?!! So it appears she might have had them anyway but who knows she never had time to recover and really rest. p.s. (She also has late onset Schizophrenia) > > > >What a job for a child....
> > I just wanted to make a point that honesty should also include honest feelings, e.g. respect and empathy.
> >
> Very good point and I may say you are a good example.Thank you.
> > Emotionally. My dominant memories are of terror.
>
> We are birds of a feather.Not a great way to remember childhood.
> >
> Moreover, I have no recollection, ever, of being so much as hugged. It may have happened, but I don't recall it....it certainly and absolutely did not happen enough.
> >
> I too was not given enough physical love (throw in some sexual abuse!!)and support. It took me forever as an adult to be able to get massages. Now I love it. It took me a long time to accept love and kindness. All that broke down and now I feel so much more open.You have shown courage in overcoming so much.
> > > Current diagnoses include: treatment-resistant major depression, dysthymia (so-called double depression),
>
> I have never heard of this double depression, it sounds so intense. Should I look it up or can you share about it?It's euphemism for major depression superimposed on dysthymia. In figurative terms, if you think of mood on a scale from -5 to +5, and euthymia at zero, my set point is not zero. It's more like -1 or -1.25 (dysthymia). Then there are major depressive swings on top of that (I think I've hit -4.5 or lower).
I used to think I was BP II, but my periods of approaching zero just felt like hypomania to me, in the context of my own experience. With the help of my medical care team, I now see things in a different light. Their objectivity has helped me re-assess my subjectivity.
> chronic fatigue syndrome
> >
> it sounds like the negative stuff is still in your tissues. have you heard of reconnection therapy? My sister does it to her clients. I have never done it myself. I guess she helps people release.It doesn't sound like a useful approach to me. 'Negative stuff in my tissues' doesn't touch me much....
> > Yes. It worked wonders on the acute form, but I ran out of treatments before trying to address the other.
> >
> I did EMDR for a solid year and I am amazed to see who I am now. For one thing I don't tremble anymore...I used to store tension in my body all the time. I used to have one emotional reaction to everything...FEAR. No longer, I have choices now.I can't afford the treatment. One day, perhaps.
> > 2. Renew Life Oil Smart?
> > I use a lot of essential oils...is that what's in there?
> >
> What essential oils do you use?Fish oil for DHA and EPA, and borage oil for GLA. Regular diet supplies more than enough ALNA, omega-6 and omega-9 fatty acids.
> Renew Life makes Oil Smart, a formula that helps in irritable bowel syndrome. It's a supplement.
I'll try and see what's in it.
> > What happens to you with Valerian? stimulated?
> > How the heck did you know that?
> >
> What's with that? Do you know why it does that? It almost seems toxic.So, valerian does that to your, too? I was amazed you predicted that for my own response.
PTSD permanently changes your biochemistry, if it arises from childhood abuse. Poor response to antidepressant therapy (excessive side effects) is another marker, IMHO.
> I hope to hear from you again.
I'm a gabber. Try to shut me up....heh. <joke>
> It's a beautiful day out and I am off to see some birds, hopefully.
I'm a birdwatcher, but most of the passerines have left already. You must be someplace warmer than where I am.
> Last night we went out canoeing & saw a river otter. It was so moving than I had tears running down my face. I have never seen one alive before. It was so curious about us...it came in real close to get a good look. It went away and came back and barked at us in a friendly way.
That's a lovely image. I love canoeing, but I've never seen an otter like that.
> talk to you soon.
> JaiKay.
Lar
Posted by Jai on November 23, 2003, at 20:14:57
In reply to Re: humor » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2003, at 11:53:24
> Ya, I know, but I was teasing you.
>
you do have light sense of humor...you know uplifting.
> What a job for a child....
>
If a way, that's why I am not in the medical arena. All my life I have played the therapist for my friends. I was a good one too. But then I wasn't really a friend. It was never equal. Now I know how to be friends.
>
> > > Emotionally. My dominant memories are of terror.
> >
> > We are birds of a feather.
>
> Not a great way to remember childhood.
>
I have a poem called "Home is Where the Fear is"
>
> You have shown courage in overcoming so much.
>
Thank you for seeing and saying.
>
Then there are major depressive swings on top of that (I think I've hit -4.5 or lower).
>
What does that look like -4.5 ? Inside you and outside you?
>
> It doesn't sound like a useful approach to me. 'Negative stuff in my tissues' doesn't touch me much....Sorry, that's messed up. I meant that if you do have trauma stored in your tissues that healing touch can and does help release it. Oh pity, sometimes I get too excited and say it all wrong.
> I can't afford the treatment. One day, perhaps.
>
How much does it cost? Is it more expensive then regular therapy?
My insurance covered most of it. It was a gift to myself.
>
> Fish oil for DHA and EPA, and borage oil for GLA.
>
what brand do you use?
> PTSD permanently changes your biochemistry, if it arises from childhood abuse.
>
Oh god! I had no idea!
>
You must be someplace warmer than where I am.
>
I doubt I am somewhere warmer. I think maybe colder? We go out to see the Red Wing Black birds. After the hunters have had their day and all the beautiful leaves have turned and fallen to the earth. It's real cold. We went out right before dusk. As the long blue shadows streched across the water. The river was flat and shinny. All the hills were casting large fields of black on the water. The trees bare bones ready for winter. We saw an owl rushing through the island forest. We canoed to this island where we have been so many times and seen splendid sights. It takes 1/2 an hour. We had packed food, mittens, warms clothes. We sat and waited. The day darkened as we waited. Our canoe hanging on the reflection of the sky. We waited and watched. On Saturday it paid off with quite a show of black birds and the river otter. We struggled home against the current as the stars became our only source of light.
>
thanks for being so interested and appreciative. I appreciate it.Jai
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 24, 2003, at 8:10:18
In reply to birds and all that jazz, posted by Jai on November 23, 2003, at 20:14:57
> > Ya, I know, but I was teasing you.
> >
> you do have light sense of humor...you know uplifting.Thanks.
> > What a job for a child....
> >
> If a way, that's why I am not in the medical arena. All my life I have played the therapist for my friends. I was a good one too.Well, once you've done it for yourself....
> But then I wasn't really a friend. It was never equal. Now I know how to be friends.
I have both kinds. I know what you mean.
> > > > Emotionally. My dominant memories are of terror.
> > >
> > > We are birds of a feather.
> >
> > Not a great way to remember childhood.
> >
> I have a poem called "Home is Where the Fear is"I don't know I want to read that, or not.
> > You have shown courage in overcoming so much.
> >
> Thank you for seeing and saying.That's a lovely bit of prose, that.
>>> Then there are major depressive swings on top of that (I think I've hit -4.5 or lower).
> >
> What does that look like -4.5 ? Inside you and outside you?It is bizarre, from my present perspective. I guess I only have a superficial recall. I believe in what is called state-dependent learning...total recall requires a similar mind-set/state. That's for the best.
One episode, I was simply near catatonic. I was warehoused (hospitalized) for that one. Another was quite different....I was active physically, but I was so suicidally fixated that I could not look at anything without interpreting it as an agent of my death. More than that, I'd have trouble expressing in words.
> > It doesn't sound like a useful approach to me. 'Negative stuff in my tissues' doesn't touch me much....
>
> Sorry, that's messed up. I meant that if you do have trauma stored in your tissues that healing touch can and does help release it.Oh, OK. Reiki or similar. I do that (but not recently, come to think of it). Again, a funding issue.
> Oh pity, sometimes I get too excited and say it all wrong.
That's what conversations are for. They let you sort it out.
> > I can't afford the treatment. One day, perhaps.
> >
> How much does it cost? Is it more expensive then regular therapy?Irrelevant if it's more or less. I can't afford anything.
I get counselling through a hospital clinic, or I wouldn't even have that.
I got 10 EMDR treatments through a community treatment facility, at their lowest co-pay of $5 per. The government (through grants) picked up the rest. After the 10 sessions you're on your own. $120 per? $150 per? something like that.
> My insurance covered most of it. It was a gift to myself.
I don't have any health insurance. I get basic medical care free (I'm in Ontario), but there's a ton of stuff that you don't get without an employer-based health plan or private coverage. I had to pay out of pocket for recent blood work to get a diagnosis of hypogonadism. :-/
> > Fish oil for DHA and EPA, and borage oil for GLA.
> >
> what brand do you use?The cheapest I can find. Walmart these days.
> > PTSD permanently changes your biochemistry, if it arises from childhood abuse.
> >
> Oh god! I had no idea!You won't find that in any textbook (yet), I wouldn't think, but laboratory experiments involving primates have demonstrated that if a persistent or recurrent critical stressor occurs during a developmental window (crudely analogous to a good chunk of human childhood), the biochemical response to subsequent stressors is not only different than that of unstressed individuals, but it remains different for the rest of the life span. I believe that many of the poorly explained disorders of adulthood (multiple chemical sensitivity, fibromyalgia, certain forms of arthritis, chronic fatigue syndrome, irritable bowel, and some psychiatric disorders in the mood/anxiety spectrum) arise as sequelae of childhood trauma. PTSD may be easier to link directly to childhood trauma, but the others are secondary sequelae, IMHO.
I had a reference to the research on my old 'puter. I'll see if I can dig it up again.
> You must be someplace warmer than where I am.
> >
> I doubt I am somewhere warmer. I think maybe colder? We go out to see the Red Wing Black birds.RWB (birder code for red-wing blackbirds) have all gone from here. South of me, if not warmer?
I'm an hour's drive NE of Toronto.
> After the hunters have had their day and all the beautiful leaves have turned and fallen to the earth. It's real cold. We went out right before dusk. As the long blue shadows streched across the water. The river was flat and shinny. All the hills were casting large fields of black on the water. The trees bare bones ready for winter. We saw an owl rushing through the island forest. We canoed to this island where we have been so many times and seen splendid sights. It takes 1/2 an hour. We had packed food, mittens, warms clothes. We sat and waited. The day darkened as we waited. Our canoe hanging on the reflection of the sky. We waited and watched. On Saturday it paid off with quite a show of black birds and the river otter. We struggled home against the current as the stars became our only source of light.
That's very beautiful.
> thanks for being so interested and appreciative. I appreciate it.
>
> JaiMutual.
Lar
Posted by Jai on November 24, 2003, at 21:16:53
In reply to Re: birds and all that jazz » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on November 24, 2003, at 8:10:18
> I have both kinds. I know what you mean.
>
Well, I never thought of that keep both friends....hummm. novel idea.
> > I have a poem called "Home is Where the Fear is"
>
> I don't know I want to read that, or not.
>
It's a very heavy poem, I read it at my women's circle and they were impressed. recently I re-read it and it's a deep, terrifying ride.
>
> That's a lovely bit of prose, that.
>
You sound so Irish. I just finished an Irish novel, "Reading in the Dark" by Seamus Deane. It's a good read.
>
> One episode, I was simply near catatonic. I was warehoused (hospitalized) for that one.
>
what did that feel like to be housed inside of?
My mother was catatonic after my birth...for months. I am so curious how that must have felt. what does the world look like?
Another was quite different....I was active physically, but I was so suicidally fixated that I could not look at anything without interpreting it as an agent of my death. More than that, I'd have trouble expressing in words.
>
This is ugly. I must admit, I too have pondered the exit mucho. It's only recently that I can say that it's not an option anymore. Never thought that would happen.
> Oh, OK. Reiki or similar. I do that (but not recently, come to think of it). Again, a funding issue.
>
I got a free hour of Reiki...wow. I loved the relaxation. Money, money, money, it's such a hurdle to get over.
>
> I don't have any health insurance. I get basic medical care free (I'm in Ontario),
>
oops! You are further North....by far. I am in the states but abutting Canada. Not really too far from you. I am originally from Wisconsin. some of my ancestors are from Canada/ Ireland. You know the famine...the death boats that came into Canada refused entry into New York harbor.
>
> > > PTSD permanently changes your biochemistry, if it arises from childhood
> You won't find that in any textbook (yet), I wouldn't think, but laboratory experiments involving primates have demonstrated that if a persistent or recurrent critical stressor occurs during a developmental window (crudely analogous to a good chunk of human childhood), the biochemical response to subsequent stressors is not only different than that of unstressed individuals, but it remains different for the rest of the life span. I believe that many of the poorly explained disorders of adulthood (multiple chemical sensitivity, fibromyalgia, certain forms of arthritis, chronic fatigue syndrome, irritable bowel, and some psychiatric disorders in the mood/anxiety spectrum) arise as sequelae of childhood trauma. PTSD may be easier to link directly to childhood trauma, but the others are secondary sequelae, IMHO.
>
wow this is harsh. I am so sad that I may be changed beyond my control. Oh well.
> I had a reference to the research on my old 'puter. I'll see if I can dig it up again.
> I would be every so appreciative.
>
Once again, thank you Lar for being so responsive and interested. I am touched.
Jai
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2003, at 0:30:38
In reply to This is fun, posted by Jai on November 24, 2003, at 21:16:53
> I just finished an Irish novel, "Reading in the Dark" by Seamus Deane. It's a good read.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Jai on November 25, 2003, at 7:43:28
In reply to Re: double double quotes » Jai, posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2003, at 0:30:38
> > I just finished an Irish novel, "Reading in the Dark" by Seamus Deane. It's a good read.
>
> I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
>
> The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
So this is how it would look?
I just finished an Irish novel, **Reading in the Dark** by Seamus Deane. It's a good read.
thanks for the heads up.
Jai
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 8:30:59
In reply to This is fun, posted by Jai on November 24, 2003, at 21:16:53
> > I have both kinds. I know what you mean.
> >
> Well, I never thought of that keep both friends....hummm. novel idea.I have many of my "therapy friends" who call, even after many years... The others, I call them too.
> > > I have a poem called "Home is Where the Fear is"
> >
> > I don't know I want to read that, or not.
> >
> It's a very heavy poem, I read it at my women's circle and they were impressed. recently I re-read it and it's a deep, terrifying ride.You wrote it, or...?
> > That's a lovely bit of prose, that.
> >
> You sound so Irish. I just finished an Irish novel, "Reading in the Dark" by Seamus Deane. It's a good read.Not Irish...pure Canuck...like there is such a thing. One of my grandpas came over from the Hebrides (Scotland).
> > One episode, I was simply near catatonic. I was warehoused (hospitalized) for that one.
> >
> what did that feel like to be housed inside of?It was irrelevant. I was fed, medicated, and pushed to bathe until they didn't have to push me, then <phoomp> out ya go....
> My mother was catatonic after my birth...for months. I am so curious how that must have felt. what does the world look like?
It shrinks to nothing. I can speak from lesser but similar events. The "event horizon", the boundaries of what seem real, just get smaller and smaller. Fewer and fewer outside influences have any bearing whatsoever. Eventually, nothing matters at all. Not even survival impulses. It's a darn good thing breathing isn't a conscious act.
> Another was quite different....I was active physically, but I was so suicidally fixated that I could not look at anything without interpreting it as an agent of my death. More than that, I'd have trouble expressing in words.
> >
> This is ugly. I must admit, I too have pondered the exit mucho. It's only recently that I can say that it's not an option anymore. Never thought that would happen.Hallucinating the process along with seeing the object is not fun. The imagery was as present as the object.
> > Oh, OK. Reiki or similar. I do that (but not recently, come to think of it). Again, a funding issue.
> >
> I got a free hour of Reiki...wow. I loved the relaxation. Money, money, money, it's such a hurdle to get over.Reiki is cool. But it very much matters the practitioner.
> > I don't have any health insurance. I get basic medical care free (I'm in Ontario),
> >
> oops! You are further North....by far.I KNEW that.
> I am in the states but abutting Canada.
It is a Canadian past-time to tut-tut when Mericans speak of what winter is like "up north", when they are referring to e.g. Nebraska or Maine.....All of Canada is north of that, eh?
> Not really too far from you.
I drive truck down the 1-81, I-75 and I-69 corridors, as well as up through Wisonsin via Chicago, and New York state via Buffalo. On which route shall I wave, as I pass by?
> I am originally from Wisconsin.
The Dells....that's gorgeous.
> some of my ancestors are from Canada/ Ireland. You know the famine...the death boats that came into Canada refused entry into New York harbor.
Well, I'm glad your ancestors made it.
> > > > PTSD permanently changes your biochemistry, if it arises from childhood
> > You won't find that in any textbook (yet), I wouldn't think, but laboratory experiments involving primates have demonstrated that if a persistent or recurrent critical stressor occurs during a developmental window (crudely analogous to a good chunk of human childhood), the biochemical response to subsequent stressors is not only different than that of unstressed individuals, but it remains different for the rest of the life span. I believe that many of the poorly explained disorders of adulthood (multiple chemical sensitivity, fibromyalgia, certain forms of arthritis, chronic fatigue syndrome, irritable bowel, and some psychiatric disorders in the mood/anxiety spectrum) arise as sequelae of childhood trauma. PTSD may be easier to link directly to childhood trauma, but the others are secondary sequelae, IMHO.
> >
> wow this is harsh. I am so sad that I may be changed beyond my control. Oh well.Not beyond control. Made different. Different rules apply. But, without that insight, treatments may be very inappropriate, or a waste of time.
> > I had a reference to the research on my old 'puter. I'll see if I can dig it up again.
> > I would be every so appreciative.
> >
> Once again, thank you Lar for being so responsive and interested. I am touched.
> JaiI am too.
Lar
Posted by Jai on November 25, 2003, at 9:40:09
In reply to Re: This is fun » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 8:30:59
I have a poem called "Home is Where the Fear is"
> You wrote it, or...?
Why, yes I did.
I was depressed as a child. But hard as I try I just couldn't get real far from my life. It's hard to leave when some adult is sexually hunting you down. I had to be vigilant and wanted to be spaced out...really tough trick. usually awake all night.
> Hallucinating the process along with seeing the object is not fun. The imagery was as present as the object.
>
How ever did you get out of that pickle?
> Reiki is cool. But it very much matters the practitioner.
>
Isn't that the truth.
> I KNEW that.
Well you are too clever by far.
> I drive truck down the 1-81, I-75 and I-69 corridors, as well as up through Wisonsin via Chicago, and New York state via Buffalo. On which route shall I wave, as I pass by?
>
Try Vermont?
Does all the driving hurt your kidneys?
I am originally from Green Bay (the arse hole of Wisconsin the reason I say that is: the main product made there is toilet paper)
> Well, I'm glad your ancestors made it.
I know, it's so awesome.
> Not beyond control. Made different. Different rules apply. But, without that insight, treatments may be very inappropriate, or a waste of time.
such as Valerian. What else comes to mind?
chromium? I am still trying to figure out chromium.
Well, I must rush off to work. The holiday season is very demanding. Retail...that is.
I haven't had a day off during the holidays for 11 years! You can imagine how I feel about the holidays...put on a happy face. but honestly my nature is to be up beat...so I do have fun inspite of the stress. Sometimes because of it!
Love this connection.
Jai
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 26, 2003, at 0:33:08
In reply to Re: double double quotes, posted by Jai on November 25, 2003, at 7:43:28
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2003, at 17:01:37
In reply to riding down the highways, posted by Jai on November 25, 2003, at 9:40:09
> I have a poem called "Home is Where the Fear is"
> > You wrote it, or...?
> Why, yes I did.Well maybe I might like to read it some time, if you'd allow me.
> I was depressed as a child. But hard as I try I just couldn't get real far from my life. It's hard to leave when some adult is sexually hunting you down. I had to be vigilant and wanted to be spaced out...really tough trick. usually awake all night.
Oh, s***
> > Hallucinating the process along with seeing the object is not fun. The imagery was as present as the object.
> >
> How ever did you get out of that pickle?Time. It passed. All things pass.
> > Reiki is cool. But it very much matters the practitioner.
> >
> Isn't that the truth.I can't find my favourite one. She moved her practise.
> > I KNEW that.
> Well you are too clever by far.I don't remember what I knew, now, so I'm not *that* clever.
> > I drive truck down the 1-81, I-75 and I-69 corridors, as well as up through Wisonsin via Chicago, and New York state via Buffalo. On which route shall I wave, as I pass by?
> >
> Try Vermont?I haven't been in Vermont for a while, sorry.
> Does all the driving hurt your kidneys?
It's harder on the bladder, to be truthful.
The tractor frame is on an air bag suspension, the cab is on air bags against the frame, and the seat is on an air bag against the cab, but you still feel the road.
> I am originally from Green Bay (the arse hole of Wisconsin the reason I say that is: the main product made there is toilet paper)
Green Bay is too close to Chicago for my liking....everybody drives very fast and aggressively, IMHO.
> > Well, I'm glad your ancestors made it.
> I know, it's so awesome.<grin>
> > Not beyond control. Made different. Different rules apply. But, without that insight, treatments may be very inappropriate, or a waste of time.
> such as Valerian. What else comes to mind?
> chromium? I am still trying to figure out chromium.Chromium if blood sugar is fluctuating. The big thing I was thinking about was there can be an inversion of diurnal cortisol, or, deficient adrenergic response (what some call adrenal fatigue). So, drugs can do the opposite of what they're supposed to (via the inversion), or do something nasty unopposed by adrenal secretions (the fatigue thingie)....that's my hypothesis.
> Well, I must rush off to work. The holiday season is very demanding. Retail...that is.
> I haven't had a day off during the holidays for 11 years! You can imagine how I feel about the holidays...put on a happy face. but honestly my nature is to be up beat...so I do have fun inspite of the stress. Sometimes because of it!Well, I hope you keep finding time for you....like the canoeing.
> Love this connection.
> JaiMe too
Happy Thanksgiving, eh? (We had ours over a month ago.)
Lar
Posted by Jai on November 26, 2003, at 19:21:44
In reply to Re: riding down the highways » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2003, at 17:01:37
"Home is Where the Fear is"
> Well maybe I might like to read it some time, if you'd allow me.
>
wow you're brave, really it's not that bad but it is painful to me. I would love to share it but since it talks about topics that are hard, I just didn't know if that would be allowed on this site. I want to be sensitive to all who may be reading this.
>
> Time. It passed. All things pass.
>
You are so fortunate you know that time will change everything.
> I don't remember what I knew, now, so I'm not *that* clever.
>
Wanna hear a kick, I don't remember either.
> I haven't been in Vermont for a while, sorry.
> It's harder on the bladder, to be truthful.
>
Is it doing damage?
> Green Bay is too close to Chicago for my liking....everybody drives very fast and aggressively, IMHO.
>
I left Green Bay when I turned 28. I moved to Oregon. After many years I bounced to the East Coast and then my beloved home Vermont.
>
and your birth place?
> Chromium if blood sugar is fluctuating. The big thing I was thinking about was there can be an inversion of diurnal cortisol, or, deficient adrenergic response (what some call adrenal fatigue). So, drugs can do the opposite of what they're supposed to (via the inversion), or do something nasty unopposed by adrenal secretions (the fatigue thingie)....that's my hypothesis.
>
Very interesting possiblity I really want to think about that idea.
>
Well, this holiday is over. Next Christmas then New Years. Then my birthday( which by the way is a holiday too but one I can be proud of!). I had an okay time working. My partner has to work tomorrow. we work at the same store. He always has to work on the holidays. so I will be home alone...it's kind of weird knowing there are people gathering all over the states in groups and this is the time I get to spend alone. Odd.
what's your day look like tomorrow?
What is your thanksgiving like? Is it the same as ours?
this is such a funny chat, we have gotten to know eachother over this public forum. So public. We have shared such important and painful things we have and are struggled with. Can I end a sentence with the word with?
How long have you been active on this site?
>
I just can't wait for you answers.
Jai
ps ( I am having real difficulty with my computer and my internet connection. Forgive me if at some point I take a while to answer...beleive me it's not my druthers. At one point I lost all my connections and I couldn't get back into psycho babble??? I tried but someone had my name....I guess that was me when my computer was healthy!!! what do you do when your computer freaks out? How do you get back on...you know reconnect with your name and all that jazz?)
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 6:16:12
In reply to t-day celebration , posted by Jai on November 26, 2003, at 19:21:44
> "Home is Where the Fear is"
> > Well maybe I might like to read it some time, if you'd allow me.
> >
> wow you're brave, really it's not that bad but it is painful to me. I would love to share it but since it talks about topics that are hard, I just didn't know if that would be allowed on this site. I want to be sensitive to all who may be reading this.'Kay.
> > Time. It passed. All things pass.
> >
> You are so fortunate you know that time will change everything.Sometimes, it's all you've got, to know that.
> > I don't remember what I knew, now, so I'm not *that* clever.
> >
> Wanna hear a kick, I don't remember either.Remember what? <wink>
> > I haven't been in Vermont for a while, sorry.
> > It's harder on the bladder, to be truthful.
> >
> Is it doing damage?Na. Significant nuisance is all. All that coffee has to go somewhere. Now, IBS on the road is no thrill.
> > Green Bay is too close to Chicago for my liking....everybody drives very fast and aggressively, IMHO.
> >
> I left Green Bay when I turned 28. I moved to Oregon. After many years I bounced to the East Coast and then my beloved home Vermont.
>
> and your birth place?Born raised and lived within 100 km of Toronto all my life. Once I was old enough to decide for myself, I have lived outside the city, but it's nice to know it's there if I need a special product, service or such.
> > Chromium if blood sugar is fluctuating. The big thing I was thinking about was there can be an inversion of diurnal cortisol, or, deficient adrenergic response (what some call adrenal fatigue). So, drugs can do the opposite of what they're supposed to (via the inversion), or do something nasty unopposed by adrenal secretions (the fatigue thingie)....that's my hypothesis.
> >
> Very interesting possiblity I really want to think about that idea.Just thinking points, really.
> Well, this holiday is over.
What's up with it being on a Thursday, anyway? Extra-long weekend to overcome family fatigue?
> Next Christmas then New Years.
Oh, you're familiar with the calendar.....how nice. ;-)
> Then my birthday( which by the way is a holiday too but one I can be proud of!). I had an okay time working. My partner has to work tomorrow. we work at the same store. He always has to work on the holidays. so I will be home alone...it's kind of weird knowing there are people gathering all over the states in groups and this is the time I get to spend alone. Odd.
Not odd, different, IMHO.
> what's your day look like tomorrow?
That would have been yesterday? Nothing special.
> What is your thanksgiving like? Is it the same as ours?
We don't do Pilgrims. But it's a thanks-for-the-bountiful-harvest type celebration. A family time. Turkey. Pumpkin pie.
> this is such a funny chat, we have gotten to know eachother over this public forum. So public. We have shared such important and painful things we have and are struggled with. Can I end a sentence with the word with?
Yes, but it's improper. heh
The verb are struggled is a little odd, too. You'd need to use both forms to avoid that, i.e we have struggled and are struggling.
If you put "with which" ahead of the second we, you get away from the dangling participle.
> How long have you been active on this site?
A little over a year?
> I just can't wait for you answers.
> JaiSorry, made you wait.
> ps ( I am having real difficulty with my computer and my internet connection. Forgive me if at some point I take a while to answer...beleive me it's not my druthers. At one point I lost all my connections and I couldn't get back into psycho babble??? I tried but someone had my name....I guess that was me when my computer was healthy!!! what do you do when your computer freaks out? How do you get back on...you know reconnect with your name and all that jazz?)
Logging on here can be done from any computer. It's public. Anyone can read posts. Replying to posts, or starting a thread, requires that you know your username and password. That too can come from any computer. I've replied to posts from many different computers, and never had the slightest problem.
If you have specific questions, post them on Admin. Somebody will know the answer.
Lar
Posted by Jai on November 28, 2003, at 7:42:05
In reply to Re: t-day celebration » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 6:16:12
Dear Lar,
did I get too excited? I tend to want to have the most fun I can (without being rude) and that fills me with this exicted energy. Did I detect a chill coming from you?
My theory of life:
I am a spirited, curious woman who loves to join in on fun and deep discussions.I am open to new ideas and ways of seeing the known and the unknown.I am dedicated to Truth and practice the Lazy Woman’s Guide to Enlightenment:
1. tell the truth
2. be kind
3. blame no one, rescue no one, be not a victim
4. breath
5. put one foot in front of the other
I can wait to hear from you.
Peace Jai
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 8:04:17
In reply to Re: t-day celebration, posted by Jai on November 28, 2003, at 7:42:05
> Dear Lar,
> did I get too excited?Too excited?
> I tend to want to have the most fun I can (without being rude) and that fills me with this exicted energy. Did I detect a chill coming from you?
Chill? I'm tired....this is not a good time of year for me...I should move to Australia. Christmas at the beach makes more sense to me....midsummer not mid-winter....
> My theory of life:
> I am a spirited, curious woman who loves to join in on fun and deep discussions.I am open to new ideas and ways of seeing the known and the unknown.I am dedicated to Truth and practice the Lazy Woman’s Guide to Enlightenment:
> 1. tell the truth
> 2. be kind
> 3. blame no one, rescue no one, be not a victim
> 4. breath
> 5. put one foot in front of the othergood list
I live by the Golden Rule. Covers the first three, and more, methinks.
> I can wait to hear from you.
> Peace Jai
>
>
Posted by Jai on November 28, 2003, at 8:41:09
In reply to Re: t-day celebration » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 8:04:17
> Chill? I'm tired....this is not a good time of year for me...I should move to Australia. Christmas at the beach makes more sense to me....midsummer not mid-winter....
>
Sorry, I forgot. Saddness often looks like a chill. I hope you can get some of that sun. Today is so rainy & dark here.
My family roots are from Ireland. All this rain makes sense to me. I used to love bike riding in the Portland mist. Maybe it's the negative ions I like.
I hope you can get some rest.Jai
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