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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 15:41:55
I make no bones about the newly known differences between childhood and adulthood. If you wait awhile, this information will get back to your therapist.
After all, they imprisonned and burned folks at the stake for saying the Earth was round and that it orbitted the Sun for up to a 100 years. Can you wait???
Piaget sensed this principle 80 years ago. Can you wait 20 years for your therapist to wise up?
The principle is that we genically undergo a major overhaul sometime between our 10th birthday and fifteenth birthday. Detail oriented folks may not accept such general sweeping reports of something barely understood. So what? I saw the benefits of accepting this premise and employing insightful use of its essence.
Maybe this is so far away from where you are and what you want as to not be interesting. Picture this! It takes 1/10th the time to understand a three dimensional model of a product compared to something in a drawing or a picture (two dimensional). Children store memories as feelings, whereas adults store memeories as pictures, with feelings only adding value to the picture (Roger Penrose on the web). This is only one small example for exploring the advantages of adulthood over childhood. BTW, we are adults. Assuming we aren't creates a distorted reality, a faulty fantasy world.
Adulthood is so much better than childhood!!!!!!
Rod
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2004, at 16:16:57
In reply to What's it all about.......?, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 15:41:55
I do beg your pardon?
Was it necessary to refer to therapists that way to get your point across?
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2004, at 16:36:10
In reply to What's it all about.......?, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 15:41:55
FWIW, if you are trying this as a communication style to increase your effectiveness as a life coach, I will give you some feedback on how it affected me if you like.
Posted by partlycloudy on August 6, 2004, at 17:02:12
In reply to Re: What's it all about.......? » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2004, at 16:36:10
I would be happy to do the same.
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on August 6, 2004, at 17:44:58
In reply to What's it all about.......?, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 15:41:55
So, what you are saying is that all of sudden our minds can take on the meaning of complex understanding of something. - Intellectual intelligence
Does this happen to everyone? Emotionally some people (ShadowPlayers) seem not to mature, but I guess that's another matter. Intectually people mature, but they don't emotionally. Hey, who put my posting name in there?
Posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 18:41:49
In reply to Re: What is *this* all about? » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2004, at 16:16:57
(((Dinah))),
Guess I didn't use my usually preamblings to qualify and qualify and qualify all over again.
Here's the deal. Roger Penrose and Antonio Dimasio, have bookend studies that you and anyone else can read, study, be amazed by, and incorporate. Along about the time of pubic hair, our brains undergo a major transformation, and not a day toooo late!
These studies were reported over 10 years ago. I first saw Dimasio on the Discovery channel in the early 90's. I ask therapists if they have seen or heard anything about this information. No public mental health professional had heard anything about it as of 2002 when I asked.
Some had this or that reactions to the information. Reponses are mostly vitriolic, loaded with conjecture and derogation. One therapist and close friend of mine I hadn't seen in a couple of years said I was talking about "voodoo".
Most said it had nothing to do with stabilizing beneficiaries (clients). I must agree. It's about wellness not bandaides. I imply that such bandaides serve to distract the therapist from learning new stuff.
There is new stuff. Some new stuff is watershed. Ignoring this watershed stuff returns the same poor results year after year. My hope is it doesn't take another 90 years to accept the obvious.
Ask your therapist for statistics of wellness for clients over time. You design the criteria that would please you.
Does anyone get well? When and how? I would love to be wrong and there be over 50% real success and healing. What a different world that would be?!?!
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 18:45:39
In reply to What's it all about.......?, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 15:41:55
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2004, at 23:48:39
In reply to What is *this* all about? -I apologise for my tone » Dinah, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 18:41:49
I appreciate your apology.
With that in mind, I'll go back and try to actually read what you were saying.
Because what I was going to tell you is that for people with personality structures like mine, at least, (I know I can't speak more globally), I find myself tuning out the rest of the message if I find the first part distressing. And I'm more protective of my therapist than he probably would be of himself if he were reading. Much as I would be of a friend or family member.
So while I realize that there is a popular communication technique that involves shocking people to get their attention, it never works with me. So you might want to keep those individual variations in mind with your clients and learn a number of different approaches to take.
From what I did take in in this reading of your post, though, I'm a bit confused. I have some books authored by the scientists you cite, yet haven't found anything in their books about what you're saying. Perhaps I just don't have the right books, or I'm not reading the right pages, or I'm not interpreting it the same way.
Do you have books and page numbers or URL's from these scientists pertaining to the points you are making so that I can follow along with you in your posts? I think there would be more room for discussion if I more fully understood what you were saying and the scientific theory behind it. And I think I could do that best by reading the same things you are reading.
Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 4:47:55
In reply to Re: Thank you » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2004, at 23:48:39
(((Dinah))),
> Do you have books and page numbers or URL's from these scientists pertaining to the points you are making so that I can follow along with you in your posts? I think there would be more room for discussion if I more fully understood what you were saying and the scientific theory behind it. And I think I could do that best by reading the same things you are reading.
><<< I'll dredge up some meaningful bibliography for you and for us to discuss. Please be patient. I'm good at research, but that means it takes me longer.
I seem to remember that most of Dimasio's time line discussion of the genetic overhaul stuff was on Nova and/or the Discovery channel, concerning differences in recovery from childhood brain traumas and adult brain traumas. If you listen carefully to his evidence and his references to data collected, you hear him alluding to studies of genetic remapping of the human brain around the time of puberty. Digging deeper, he has his own papers, and references to other people's work, in some of his University of Iowa website articles.
Other folks I amalgamate into the model I present include Jean Piaget, Virginia Satir, Sir Roger Penrose, Dr. Penfield, and the Phd from NYU with all the recent brain wave new stuff (sorry I can't find his name right off). I must have left it in my other computer...
It would help if you would tell me what does wash with your info. Also, give me some idea of how you see it different. Bear in mind that I don't hear this from the mental health industry. Virginia Satir and Roger Penrose are in high esteem but contriversial, whereas the others are off the radar screen entirely.
I'll tighten up my sources and get back to you, I promise.
Rod
Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 10:31:19
In reply to Re: Thank you... Back Atcha » Dinah, posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 4:47:55
My personal library is in disarray, and the only book I can find immediately is "The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness" by Antonio R. Damasio and two by Joseph LeDoux. But I suspect I might have another one by Damasio, and my husband might have one or two.
However I'm sure the others can be located in my local library or the university library nearby. I'm not sure about the ones that are off the radar of course, but the mainstream ones are readily available I'm sure. I'll see what I can find and glance through it.
Something about the way we think changing at a certain age and the color of memories changing at the same time? Is that what I'm looking for?
Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 18:17:14
In reply to I'm looking forward to it » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 10:31:19
(((Dinah))),
>
> Something about the way we think changing at a certain age and the color of memories changing at the same time? Is that what I'm looking for?
><<< Color vs Black & White is Bandler & Grinder and NLP. The premise suggested by David Peck, who studied under Bandler and Grinder in the early 80s, connects Penrose to NLP. Penrose pointed out that the nature of a memory changes from color to black and white for children over a three or four day period normally. Bandler and Grinder point out that black and white memories from childhood usually indicate a memory created from trauma. David suggested that both are indicators of a phenomenon he had witnessed over his 35 years of practice. He noticed that a memeory from a traumatic childhood continued to high-jack emotions as long as it remained black and white. So he embarked on a serious venture to use the visusal cortex to update the memory into color, associated with a happy event in color, thereby overlaying the happy feelings over the updated now color memory. To all our surprise, it worked just as David had figured.
He was still surprised though. It works and works well. If one of the features of a blackmailing memory changes, the memory looses its power over the senses. When we add self imposed out-of-body analysis of our situation, it becomes a fiarly complete package, a phenomenon. I can manage any of those bad memories or any newly discovered habits I have let go bad. It's amazing how it only takes seconds to overcome any upset now.
Can I forward any of David's papers that pertain to this to your yahoo email address? Hope to hear more from (((y'alls)))...
Rod
Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 18:54:42
In reply to Re: Re: looking forward to it - Me toooo, posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 18:17:14
I don't mind if you do, Rod. You know the address. But perhaps before you do that I should get up to speed on the research that went into it, so that I'd be more likely to understand it. The neuroscience background. Penrose did you say? And Bandler and Grinder? I tried a google search but got nowhere. It might take a while, so hold off on sending me anything till I manage to locate the research. I'll check the university library.
I happened to ask my son about his memories, and none of them are black and white. In fact, he looked at me like I was insane for suggesting that any memories at all be black and white. What age is this change supposed to take place? I have no black and white memories whatsoever. But then I have no serious trauma to remember either. And memories rarely distress me. I have a memory sorting and storage system that effectively strips memories of their associated affective content and stores them separately. It takes a lot of work to integrate them.
The theory behind imagining a happier outcome sounds like some of the EMDR techniques. I'm no expert in that, but I think I remember something along those lines when I was researching the technique.
I've heard of NLP. Neuro-Linguistic Programming? Does your method work along similar theories? If so, I could probably research that and get a better understanding of your posts that way.
Posted by JenStar on August 7, 2004, at 20:58:35
In reply to What's it all about.......?, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 15:41:55
hi Rod,
in your opinion, what could (should) a therapist do differently once they learn more about Damasio & Penrose's theories? How would this affect the majority of adults in therapy?Are you referring to Antonio R. Damasio, by the way?
JenStarPS - it may have nothing to do with how I process memories, but I really do like adulthood better than childhood! (But that's a loooong story....)
> I make no bones about the newly known differences between childhood and adulthood. If you wait awhile, this information will get back to your therapist.
>
> After all, they imprisonned and burned folks at the stake for saying the Earth was round and that it orbitted the Sun for up to a 100 years. Can you wait???
>
> Piaget sensed this principle 80 years ago. Can you wait 20 years for your therapist to wise up?
>
> The principle is that we genically undergo a major overhaul sometime between our 10th birthday and fifteenth birthday. Detail oriented folks may not accept such general sweeping reports of something barely understood. So what? I saw the benefits of accepting this premise and employing insightful use of its essence.
>
> Maybe this is so far away from where you are and what you want as to not be interesting. Picture this! It takes 1/10th the time to understand a three dimensional model of a product compared to something in a drawing or a picture (two dimensional). Children store memories as feelings, whereas adults store memeories as pictures, with feelings only adding value to the picture (Roger Penrose on the web). This is only one small example for exploring the advantages of adulthood over childhood. BTW, we are adults. Assuming we aren't creates a distorted reality, a faulty fantasy world.
>
> Adulthood is so much better than childhood!!!!!!
>
> Rod
>
>
>
Posted by 64bowtie on August 9, 2004, at 7:03:17
In reply to Re: Re: looking forward to it - Me toooo » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 18:54:42
(((Dinah))),
Penrose did you say? => Sir Roger Penrose, PhD, talks about the micro tubins activity in the neuron reminds me of how electrons act in a transistor. He argues that if we are alive, we are consious beings. Explains the falasy of Freud, and his self admission that he invented the un-conscious mind.
Bandler & Grinder? => Practiced NLP till recently
google search? => NLP
>What age is this change supposed to take place?
<<< Hmmmm... This mostly came from NLP empiricism. Each Individual is different. Everything seems to come together by age 15 for most (99%). A lot of the black & white stuff is either colorized or seen as distortions and thus discarded. Your son can rethink everything he can remember and subliminally see the black & white stuff consciously as distorted, and instantly colorize them or discard them. We daydream all the time and we aren't gonna daydream in black and white. That would seem wierd. So we update; we colorize. We need more time and a lot more research to be exact in this approach. My implementaion: close is good enough like in horseshoes and hand grenades. If the client reports black & white with stillness in the background and they are the only one in the foreground, I vote unresolved blackmailing memory that is highjacking the emotions.
<<< Carefull neuro-science studies have been reported to show that:
1. children see "it" in color
2. resolve "it" to the background of their awareness.
3. If asked by leading question if that memory is black & white or color, report more than 50% of the time black & white (remember, this is a resolved issues. Unresolved stuff is different and lingers into adulthood unresolved and mostly black & white). Seems there is so little interest that the memory remains in this distorted form of black & White.
4. If need be, and the memory is utilised, it seems to change and be colorized.
5. When asked about the resolved memory while in their 20s, universally, if they still have the memory its in color, if not there is no recollection. Damasio hypothesises that during the dramatic genetic remapping of the brain, stuff gets lost or discarded. Scarey, but explains alot to me about what happened to my memory as a teenager. I didn't drink or do drugs and I was a two sport athlete, Track & field, and Tennis. No one hit me in the head, but somethings just, went away.
6. Trauma victims seem to have those dark, black & white memories into their 60s (that was David's oldest clients we saw). Drug and alcohol abusers we interviewed, were first surprised, then baffled that we knew about their black & white world in their minds. When David would coax them past some painful memories he used the dicotomy of, black & white = pain, and color = pleasure, to steer them to resolution by updating visually with color. Call me a liar, but it really, really works. Cients reported relief from lingering emotional pain for the first time ever. I was there. My ferver for my project is linked to those Ah-hah type episodes, driving me on..., no matter what....!
7. David may have gone way out on a limb with his promoting the technique that, since we can be in two places at once via the mind's eye, that we sit across the room from ourselves and notice that we could have a tooth ache but seeing ourselves from across the room, we can't feel it. Likewise, if we have shame or blame that is blackmailing us, we can be across the room and lovingly reassure ourselves that we can and will take care of ourselves. I used to suggest the same dialog with ourselves only be done while looking at ourselves in a mirror. David upped the ante and now I use "Mirror Work" as I call it much less often. David had victims of childhood sexual assault create the disembodied entity across the room, being the child, and would ask the client in a very soft voice,David: "Do you see that hurting child across the room? Tell me, do they look safe and comfortable? What do you want to say to that child that is you? Can you say it to them right now lovingly, with love in your heart for them and the pain they enduered? In your mind, Go ahead and tell that child you love them and they will be OK and grow up to be you. Tell them you will take care of them and love them no matter what". ...followed by a couple of minutes of silence... then comes the tears.
Man or woman, the tears would fall, and there wouldn't be a dry eye in the room. It was always awesome.
>sounds like some of the EMDR techniques
<<< We were busy trying to study a phenomenon so labels didn't seem to help.
>I've heard of NLP. Neuro-Linguistic Programming?
<<< By practice, I have added some NLP skills to my dog & pony show. I have also added Landmark Education stuff, and because Landmark is joined at the hip with Scientology, I expect to be sued any day now, except Landmark principles are all public domain in nature, but not by name. If I reproduce Landmark literature, I would be guilty of copyright infringement. I don't copy Landmark literature, but I read it and understand it, and disregard the L. Ron Hubbard type spooky stuff.
Note: I use 12 step stuff toooo.
Gosh! I'm at the end. Did I answer your questions?
Rod
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2004, at 9:55:00
In reply to Re: Re: Re: » Dinah, posted by 64bowtie on August 9, 2004, at 7:03:17
Posted by AuntieMel on August 9, 2004, at 22:22:51
In reply to Re: Re: looking forward to it - Me toooo, posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 18:17:14
Please forward the papers to me, too.
auntiemel
at
gmail
dotcomThanks - sounds like something I'd enjoy reading.
This is the end of the thread.
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