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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by RH on August 24, 2004, at 19:23:18
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept, posted by Simon Sobo MD on August 24, 2004, at 12:48:02
> Glad to see word is finally getting around. See the movie Garden State
Thanks for the flick tip, I'm going to check it out.
Don't be too optimistic, Dr. Sobo. Sales of the various brain chemical balanacing drugs is in the billions, if not tens of billions. I can obtain many of these over the intenet without seeing a doctor. Not that I would.
For the sake of those who are in turmoil, I understand that these drugs can provide the relief needed to go on. And, yes, I am aware that some patients show up at the hospital in a fetal postion, nearly catatonic, and I would not hesitate to use any good tool to help these folks, if I was a doctor, regardless of what might be the fundamental problem.
And it does not seem to me that a regulating mechanism in the brain might not malfunction, but that conditon may only explain those souls who we typically think of as needing institutionalization.
It is the huge number of people relying on meds that seems suspicious, as well as the faulty psuedo science behind the meds.
I am not sure exactly what role these drugs play in the ongoing slide into nihilism, but my research leads me to believe they hasten it. Still, I keep an open mind that they may in some way be helping to stave it off.
Sometimes I think patients should be seeing a philosopher, not a psychologist or pdoc. Does anyone agree with me? (Fortunately, some of the latter are the former -- patients should understand how to shop for that type.)
Who can argue with good therapy?
Final thought:
In addition to therapy and introspection, forcing happy thoughts on oneself does seem to work, for me certainly, and I know others who have made this confession.
RH
Posted by Atticus on August 25, 2004, at 10:41:42
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept, posted by RH on August 24, 2004, at 18:44:44
RH,
Have you ever personally experienced severe clinical depression with an associated panic disorder? Do you really understand just how deep the abyss can be? I have and do every day. This isn't just a case of the "blues" we're talking about here. I didn't arrive in the ER in a fetal position; I arrived with the veins in my left wrist and forearm slashed to ribbons after fighting with this illness for eight years. And I can't speak for anyone else, but being put on Effexor XR in the hospital has literally changed my life. My perceptions are dramatically more lucid than they've been in a decade. I'm a senior writer and editor at a major nationally known university -- not someone who, as you describe people for whom meds may be appropriate, is a candidate for "institutionalization." I've been able to resume writing poetry (check out my 24 entries on the Psycho-Babble-Writing page) as well as painting. None of this would have been possible by the sheer power of positive thinking, believe me. I get very upset when I read posts such as yours, because mentally ill people such as myself have to battle the stigma every day that if we could just think "happy thoughts" and snap out of it, everything would be swell. I feel that conceptualizing mental illness as something that is merely perceptual, and has no basis in biochemistry, is just a giant step backwards in terms of protecting the mentally ill from discrimination and ostracism. I do feel that plugging SSRIs in television commercials and in magazine ads is inappropriate because it leads laypeople to self-diagosis and to go to their physicians and demand medications that may be completely inappropriate. But I can't conceive of dismissing all psychotropic medications as only fit for those unable to function outside a lock-up ward. One of my colleagues at work has two brothers who are both paranoid-schizophrenic, and they have learned to function in society (albeit not at the level of people without such an illness) due primarily to their medications. Were either of these men to go off their medications, the results would be catastrophic. And I think they would be for me and many others as well. I really had hoped that the "pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps-with-some-help-from-talk-therapy" school of thinking was finally fading. I'm very sad to read that this isn't the case. Atticus
Posted by Susan47 on August 25, 2004, at 11:07:10
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept » RH, posted by Atticus on August 25, 2004, at 10:41:42
Thank you Atticus. I couldn't agree with you more. Meds have changed my life. It wasn't even possible to *think* those "happy thoughts" before meds. You're right, the abyss is just that.
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 25, 2004, at 22:36:25
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept » RH, posted by Atticus on August 25, 2004, at 10:41:42
I remember as a child holding my mothers face in my hands as she spun from her mania to depression.
"Mom, it's not your fault they will discover it's just a chemical problem."
Mania always took us all on a dangerous trip. So when she'd come down.... really down we'd all be reeling from the rapid descent.
It did turn out to be the biological chemicals.
We really can't step backwards and demote all this learning into a light weight idea of just pull yourself up....etc.
My mothers family were all sick. It was the chemistry of my grandparents together.Has science taught us nothing?
Posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 11:26:28
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept » RH, posted by Atticus on August 25, 2004, at 10:41:42
As a fellow sufferer of depression and anxiety, I completely agree with Atticus that sometimes there are mental states that are just beyond my ability to "snap out of it" without assistance from meds. I am very thankful for Lexapro and Xanax; although I was terrified to take them initially, they turned out to be a godsend and allowed me to get back to normal funtioning again.
There are also times when I'm not THAT low, and in those times I CAN alter my mental state by focusing on it, talking, smiling, buying nice clothes, baking, reading, laughing, exercising, ec. I'm thankful that I have some control over my mental state and I am working hard to learn stress control techniques.
I've always been fascinated by Zen Buudhism and the control over the physical body that monks seem to have. I also love to read about how positive thinking can heal, because it's a wonderful thought and I'd love to get to the point where I CAN control my body better.
For me, a combination of positive thinking PLUS backup from meds seems to work. There may be people who can overcome depression through focus alone, and that's great. I wish I could do it too, and maybe someday I will be able to.
But I firmly believe -- FIRMLY! -- that brain chemicals and pathways are responsible for many of the things in today's society that we attack as personality flaws or character flaws. I think that brain chemicals (like insulin for diabetics, or TSH for thyroid patients) can definitely fluctuate and affect a person's outlook. And sometimes that person needs assistance from a chem (just like diabetics may need insulin at times) to get back to normal.
I think it's very hard to understand things like depression or panic/anxiety unless you suffer from them. I myself was dismissive and a bit condecending in my outlook on mental health issues as a younger person...it was only when I myself started having panic attacks & depression that I truly understood how it feels.I guess it's sort of like understanding an addiction (like alcohol.) Unless one suffers from alcoholism, it's easy to dismiss it and say "just be strong...don't drink!" Lucikly our society is starting to learn how strong addictions can be, and is slowly moving in the direction of help rather than stigmatization. Hopefully mental health care follows!
Anyway, sorry if I got up on the soapbox there. (It's a nice soapbox! I like it!)
thanks for listening.
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 11:37:14
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept, posted by RH on August 24, 2004, at 18:44:44
RH,
I myself wonder sometimes about the vast number of prescriptions being written for things like SSRI's. Personally, I believe I benefited greatly from the use of my SSRI, and that without it I would not have been able to 'fix' myself. But in general I wonder if we ARE overprescribing drugs (esp. to children).The things I wonder are:
1. Is there more mental illness today than 100 years ago, or are we better at diagnosing it?2. Are we exacerbating tendencies toward mental illness (driving them into full-blown issues) because of the stressful world we create?
3. Do we "need" drugs like SSRI's because our manufactured life is just too hard for the human being to handle -- too much job stress, money stress, basic survival stress? Is our society a step ahead of our brain chemistry?
3. Over time, is the use of SSRI's going to diminish or increase? It's possible (in pseudo scientific terms) that a natural damping mechanisn will take place: First, we had no SSRI's; they came onto the market and there is HUGE use, then use will fluctuate down and up until it 'damps down' to a baseline.
4. Or...is it possible...that in the future we'll ALL be taking SSRI's, just like we take vitamins now, to balance out our systems & achieve optimal mental balance?
Just a few thoughts. In the meantime, though...I still like my SSRI. I'm glad it's here!
JenSTar
Posted by Atticus on August 26, 2004, at 14:57:06
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept » Atticus, posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 11:26:28
Hi JenStar,
I agree completely with your post. I didn't mean to lessen in any way the value of meditative techniques. The breathing techniques that I learned in the hospital and in intensive outpatient treatment afterwards can literally lower my blood pressure by 10 points or more in less than 10 minutes. But I know I'd still be in the lock-up ward in the hospital without the Effexor XR, which has allowed me to get to a place where I can at least begin to apply meditative techniques involving deep breathing and visualization. It's the idea that no mental illness is EVER based on biochemical imbalances -- except in the instances of people who need to be permanently institutionalized -- that I think is counterproductive to helping people without mental illness understand those of us who have to cope with it every day of our lives. Atticus
Posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 17:07:52
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept » JenStar, posted by Atticus on August 26, 2004, at 14:57:06
Yes, I wish more people could understand how useful the medications can be to bring people to a 'starting point' from which other techniques can be effective. If someone had told me to "think happy thoughts" when I was in the midst of my anxiety, it would have done nothing except make me ferociously angry. Now, however, after I've been on the Lex and I'm back to a stable place... it's OK to hear that and I can actually work with it!
It is SO COOL that you can lower your BP by 10 points thru medidation! I wish I could do that. Was it hard to learn it?
JenStar
Posted by RH on August 28, 2004, at 3:50:20
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept » RH, posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 11:37:14
Hi Jenstar:
1. More today
2. that what's going on
3. that may be how it's going
3. possibly
4. no, the dominant ones will not take them and will use the situation to create another caste division.
Posted by aPenName on September 23, 2004, at 14:53:11
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept, posted by RH on August 28, 2004, at 3:50:20
I want more information on this chemical imbalance concept. About 4 years ago, my psychiatrist assured me that one can do a brain scan (I forgot which one) and see the chemical imbalance in a depressed vs. non-depressed person. I also have a close friend who's had a medication prescription chosen from the results of such a scan.
However, due to that tract, "The Anti-Depressant Fact Book", my mother continually argues with me that there is Zero evidence that chemical imbalances cause depression and that anti-depressants may be needed (in some cases, perhaps mine) for a lifetime.
So, all you experts out there: Do you have any journal articles I can reference? I'm a scientist, so I understand a lot of the issues here, about how the brain is very complex. I understand that there is a huge host of possible inputs which affect a human and how their brain works and reacts to situations. But I *know* from my experience what it's like to be thrown for no apparent outside reason into the deep abyss and not be able to control myself, to not stop crying and being depressed, considering my life and all my relationships wortheless and a waste. I've taken the data on myself for years before I was treated, and can reasonably see how chemical imbalance is possible. How it's not "my fault", as much as I've tried to "wish myself better", not just a bad day, or the pain of graduate school, or any of those outside influences at the root. (outside influences CAN contribute). At least three of my siblings are being treated for depression as well (one medicine, 2 therapy alone), we all agree my late father would have benefited greatly from it. I have a schizophrenic uncle, and some evidence of suicide and depression a generation before that (that all maternal side). There appears to be in my limited experience reasonable cause for some sort of genetic effect which may support the "chemical imbalance".
So I'm looking for the evidence. Sure, drug reps are 'evil', and companies are out to make money, can we get past that to some science, please?
thanks in advance,
aPenname
Posted by just plain jane on September 27, 2004, at 9:49:28
In reply to Re: about the chemical imbalance concept, posted by aPenName on September 23, 2004, at 14:53:11
I have a hard time with the concept of conclusive evidence, so,
my thoughts on this are:
no one can be sure, no matter how much science they throw my way, there is still
for me
the God factor.
Pretty close to conclusive is all we can ever get, I do believe.JMO
just plain jane
This is the end of the thread.
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