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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by AMD on April 2, 2005, at 11:41:48
Hey experts,
I have had a few benders the past month, drinking way too much. Last night I went out, overdrank, and vaguely recall getting a cab ride downtown, then another one up to my apartment, before stumbling into the apartment around 5 a.m. I probably had 5-6 drinks over the course of 3 hours, so my BAL, I'd sure, rose quickly. I was also smoking.
This is not good.
However, is it not good to the point where I could have done serious damage to my brain, heart, liver after a few of these nights? I know blacking out is never fun -- and I was probably close to that, since the memories toward the end of the night are foggy -- but does that indicate you've really f'd your brain, or is it merely a temporary symptom. I do take vitamin B supplements before I go out, along with fish oil. Not that that helps, but ...
Anyhow, I feel out of sorts today (hung over), but I'm obsessing, as usual. Four binges in a month -- is that enough to get DT or other neurological problems from?
Does the brain recover from damage like that, if one abstains from drinking? I'm just worried here. Well, freaking out, as I so eloquently put it.
I read these online research articles and they sound so scary, but I wonder what really constitutes "long-term heavy drinking," and how much true damage is done.
Perhaps I'll feel better tomorrow after sobering up a bit more.
12 steps, 12 steps. First meeting is tonight.
Thanks -- I am becoming an expert on very substances through self-experimentation, it seems.
amd
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2005, at 11:41:49
In reply to Alcohol (questions) for Lar, chemist, posted by AMD on April 1, 2005, at 18:25:04
> Anyhow, I feel out of sorts today (hung over), but I'm obsessing, as usual. Four binges in a month -- is that enough to get DT or other neurological problems from?
No. DT is an acute withdrawal phenomenon. The other stuff comes from daily (or close to it) use over an extended period.
> Does the brain recover from damage like that, if one abstains from drinking? I'm just worried here. Well, freaking out, as I so eloquently put it.
Yes. The brain recovers from it. I think I'm a good example. I averaged 12 (Canadian) beers a day, on work days. 24 on off days. For extended periods. For years.
There is a set of post-intoxication symptoms, called the sequelae. That's what you're having. Stop drinking, and you won't get them. It's as simple as that.
> I read these online research articles and they sound so scary, but I wonder what really constitutes "long-term heavy drinking," and how much true damage is done.
It usually takes multiple years of daily drinking to stupor.
> Perhaps I'll feel better tomorrow after sobering up a bit more.I surely think so.
> 12 steps, 12 steps. First meeting is tonight.Good plan. Get a sponsor. One who you "connect" with.
> Thanks -- I am becoming an expert on very substances through self-experimentation, it seems.
>
> amdJust remember, "If you keep on doing what you always did, you'll keep on getting what you always got. Insanity is doing the same things over, but expecting different results."
We call it the disease of addiction. I like the original Old French meaning of the word (it came into English during the Norman conquest c. 1066). The root word is diseasu, meaning "not at peace". I feel that's an appropriate way to look at it.
Find peace. Find peace in mutual support, among people who understand.
Lar
Posted by AMD on April 2, 2005, at 22:10:23
In reply to Re: Alcohol (questions) for Lar, chemist » AMD, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2005, at 10:40:34
I appreciate your posts for many reasons, Lar, but I especially love the knowledge and tidbits of wisdom you pass on in the form of quotations or word etymology. I am fascinated by the magic of words and language.
I am feeling a little better today.
Your experience, by the way, seems to be an argument /for/ drinking! ;)
amd
Posted by FredPotter on April 4, 2005, at 19:52:23
In reply to Re: Alcohol (questions) for Lar, chemist, posted by AMD on April 2, 2005, at 22:10:23
It took me a few attempts to stop drinking for good. Each time, after 3 or 4 days I felt wonderful. A feeling to look forward to. As Larry says, it's almost never too late with the brain and alcohol
Posted by Mistermindmasta on April 5, 2005, at 0:36:36
In reply to Alcohol (questions) for Lar, chemist, posted by AMD on April 1, 2005, at 18:25:04
As far as my research has taken me, alcohol can be acutely neurotoxic, but generally reversible. In fact, I think 100% of the neurotoxicity that alcoholics experience is reversible. You should be ok, but I might be wrong on that... hopefully Larry answers.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2005, at 11:53:02
In reply to Re: Alcohol (questions) for Lar, chemist, posted by AMD on April 2, 2005, at 22:10:23
> I appreciate your posts for many reasons, Lar, but I especially love the knowledge and tidbits of wisdom you pass on in the form of quotations or word etymology. I am fascinated by the magic of words and language.
Thanks. I do collect aphorisms in my brain. They are very useful. Sometimes I make up my own.
I am simply fascinated.
I had trouble getting into the 12-step thing, but most especially with the influence of a Christian/God thing. I appreciate religion for what it can do to guide people towards a certain quality of life, but the 12-steps are a spiritual program. Not religious, spiritual.
So, I had to re-write the 12-steps from the get go. Everywhere it said God, I substituted "good". I do believe in Good. It's my spirit, joined with yours, and all others. It's a voice within us all, sometimes drowned out in the cacophony of turmoiled thought, but it's always there. Quiet, patient, but determined, it's always there.
I actually first joined the 12-steps as an Adult Child of an Alcoholic, but we'll save that for another day.
> I am feeling a little better today.
Yes, the sequelae are time-limited. For example, unlike other toxic substances, your elimination of alcohol is linear. No matter the dose, the average person can eliminate only about one standard drink per hour. It's a flat-rate. The more you ingest, the longer it takes to get it all outta there. The elimination process consumes some very precious substances that we call vitamins. Also, the antioxidant glutathione.....which protects organs from damage caused by the intermediate metabolic product, acetaldehyde. It's the depletion of glutathione that is the critical element in damage from alcohol.
The other thing is the consumption of NAD+, a key energy molecule in numerous essential metabolic processes....two molecules of NAD+ for every molecule of alcohol.....and... that's about 18,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 NAD+s per hour. The whole liver goes into maximal stress mode to handle the alcohol. Everything else the liver does gets pretty much shoved aside.
More than you ever wanted to know about the metabolism of alcohol:
http://www.rsoa.org/lectures/2_01/2_01.pdfChronic users of alcohol do cause the up-regulation of CYP2E1, but that's also another story. However, it does explain the resistance of alcoholics to medication that might stabilize them during detox and rehab.
> Your experience, by the way, seems to be an argument /for/ drinking! ;)
>
> amdI fail to see that, myself. Who knows what I might otherwise have been like, had I never abused substances. Whatever the effect of drug and alcohol abuse on me, they led me to a spiritual path of self-examination. One of internal discovery. Most people in life never get that chance. All those "normals" out there, who live in ignorance of spiritual self-awareness. I have wished they had the need to come into our rooms....
I don't go to meetings just now....but I'm always living as if I'm at one.
Best,
Lar
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