![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by AMD on May 7, 2005, at 21:17:31
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » AMD, posted by Larry Hoover on May 6, 2005, at 22:50:04
Would one bump of K be enough to trigger "Olney's Lesions" or the vaculoes seen in rats?
Also, I forgot in my last post to state that I'm taking Lamictal, Celexa, and had Seroquel about 8-10 hours after first going to bed in order to get more sleep. Did these drugs exasperate or block the K's effects?
Just what I need. Now I'm going to be walking around imaging little holes in my cells, and think I have brain damage. Ugh!
amd
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 8, 2005, at 9:01:00
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » Larry Hoover, posted by AMD on May 7, 2005, at 20:32:34
> Well, I rarely drink /that/ much, and if you did it daily for /years/ and have recovered to a point indicative of your literate, intelligent posts, well ... I guess there is hope for those of us out there with the occasional habit.
If there is a benefit to others, hearing my story, so be it. However, that is not a license to misbehave.
> My problem is deeper. I went out Friday and, whaddyaknow, one drink too many and I'm flying, next thing I know it's cocaine, cigarettes, beers, and 36 hours in bed. I am up now, still feeling more-or-less horrible, mind-scattered, and generally ... well, I've been on here enough that you know how I get.
Do you note the effect of the first drink? That's where you need all your judgment. That's where the key decision is made.
> Are there any long-term effects from one bump? And what about cognition? How long should I expect the ketamine to be in my system and affecting my concentration and executive functioning?
No.
> Dammit -- this is vicious cycle. I calculate I do one night of hard partying out every two weeks or so. Is this extreme? Is this "moderate" or "heavy"?Heavy.
> Given the amount of time between "parties," should I relax about long-term damage and concentrate, instead, on quitting before it /does/ become a more habitual and (I assume permanently damaging) habit?
There are two issues. Acute exposure and chronic exposure. Acute exposure can cause long-term damage. There are many variables, but don't assume that your binges are safe.
Concentrate on that "Friday night, I'll have one drink" attitude. "The first drink is too many, and a thousand never enough."
> I am considering doing another geographic -- leaving New York and heading back to California, where I was drug and (mostly) alcohol free for 18 months, near family, and stable in my job. I know, this probably sounds like a "band aid," but I wonder if the East Villege is not the best mileau.
Just remember, you will go with you on that trip. Whoever you now are, i.e.
> More erudite thoughts welcome!
>
> And for the record, chemist (and you know this), erudite means "out of rudeness (ignorance)". So that was, in fact, a complement.
>
> aLar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 8, 2005, at 9:12:06
In reply to Ugh -- ketamine vacuoles, Olney's Lesions » Larry Hoover, posted by AMD on May 7, 2005, at 21:17:31
> Would one bump of K be enough to trigger "Olney's Lesions" or the vaculoes seen in rats?
Virtually impossible.
> Also, I forgot in my last post to state that I'm taking Lamictal, Celexa, and had Seroquel about 8-10 hours after first going to bed in order to get more sleep. Did these drugs exasperate or block the K's effects?
Exacerbate. No.
> Just what I need. Now I'm going to be walking around imaging little holes in my cells, and think I have brain damage. Ugh!
>
> amdOlney's Lesions are also associated with another NMDA blocker, dextromethorphan.
The lesions are likely caused by chronic excessive doses.
In a single acute exposure to a toxicant, there is an injury threshold. Your body can take a tiny bit, with no problem. More, and the biochemical stressors increase along with it. At some point, the stress meets the capacity of the system to manage that stress. Any dose beyond that will cause damage.
The problem with chronic exposure is that it can do two things. It can constantly deplete the biochemical resources of the cells, preventing them, in effect, from stockpiling the safety equipment they would otherwise store. And, it can disturb regulatory systems in the cell, up- or down-regulating cell function.
Then, it is possible that low chronic doses routinely exceed the toxic threshold (cell injury), or that acute exposures at lesser doses than that single dose example above exceed the toxic threshold. You now have the setting for permanent injury from both acute and chronic exposures.
I strongly advise you seek out substance abuse counselling. There is some really good counselling out there (and some crap, too). You need to understand what it is that you gain from doing these drug binges. However it is that you process your experiences, the pain of continuing on with the drugs is still less than the pain of changing. Counselling can help you put your finger on the balance, tipping your decisions in one way, and one way only. Then, you can consciously find ways to provide safe substitutes for those things drugs once gave you. If you can satisfy those needs, you won't want drugs to meet them.
Best,
Lar
Posted by chemist on May 8, 2005, at 12:39:34
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » Larry Hoover, posted by AMD on May 7, 2005, at 20:32:34
hello amd...in general: using a substance - ketamine, 3,4-MDMA, cocaine, alcohol, etc. - once in any quantity short of landing one in the emergency room is going to induce remorse (perhaps) and a lousy waking the next day and very little else: this is a well-established fact and not my opinion. my opinions, commentary, and even some factual information follow, delineated by asterisks....yours, chemist
> Well, I rarely drink /that/ much, and if you did it daily for /years/ and have recovered to a point indicative of your literate, intelligent posts, well ... I guess there is hope for those of us out there with the occasional habit.*** everybody enjoys immunity from the ills of addiction and damage to the body/mind for the very infrequent party gone awry, i suspect...many of us boozed our way through college and/or high school, tried an assortment of drugs in our youth, and lived to tell about it...when use becomes a problem - or when headaches and money spent at bars becomes excessive - it's time to throw in the towel, in my opinion....*****
>
> My problem is deeper. I went out Friday and, whaddyaknow, one drink too many and I'm flying, next thing I know it's cocaine, cigarettes, beers, and 36 hours in bed. I am up now, still feeling more-or-less horrible, mind-scattered, and generally ... well, I've been on here enough that you know how I get.
>
> Mix some marijuana in there, as well.**** the ``occasional habit'' sounds like a cyclical breaking of self-imposed prohibition. the question is if/when occasional becomes often, at which point it might be a little late to try to evaluate the situation with a clear head. at that point, you will be glad to know that the a.a. meetings on perry street are not fictional plot devices for a recently-concluded cable television program series starring sarah jessica parker. try the late-night meetings on friday or saturday night: an old pal of mine kicked a 2-liter per day vodka habit and was among the lightweights in attendence there (yes, a friend and not yours truly: however, i cannot say that i was not unimpressed by the stories i heard and the people who told them.)...if you are looking to get scared straight about booze and drugs, rest assured, a trip like this one will do it. ******
>
> I also did a bump of ketamine, which has me worried. I didn't even know what I was doing at the time -- didn't realize it wasn't just another line.**** probably not pure ketamine...more than likely the coke...*****
>
> I didn't feel any noticable effects from the K. It was probably offset by the cocaine. But I'm not in the habit of using downers, and I especially didn't want to do it unknowningly.**** see above comment. if a bump is an amount one would assign to the quantity of a powdered substance that can fit on the end of a automobile key (or so i am told...): forget about it, don't do it again, and stay away from tranquilizers used by the veterinarian. the coke will show up invariably at social functions where you can reasonably expect to find it. this means: if you can spot the guy who is holding when you walk into a room, you had better be of a mind to be able to decide yes or no...don't put yourself in the position of being unable to decide if doing some blow is good or not: if you are liquored-up, then chances are.....*****
>
> Are there any long-term effects from one bump? And what about cognition? How long should I expect the ketamine to be in my system and affecting my concentration and executive functioning?**** nope. as for residence time, it is certainly gone by now. the only residue is in your conscience *****
>
> Dammit -- this is vicious cycle. I calculate I do one night of hard partying out every two weeks or so. Is this extreme? Is this "moderate" or "heavy"? Given the amount of time between "parties," should I relax about long-term damage and concentrate, instead, on quitting before it /does/ become a more habitual and (I assume permanently damaging) habit?**** to me, the one night of hard partying inclusive of coke, pot, a potential spell in the k-hole, lots of booze, smokes, and three prescription meds is one night too many: i say ``heavy.'' however, i have not been in a social setting where anything other than booze and cigarettes makes an appearence: even pot is in the noise level, although i expect it to be as it's not on my menu...thus, my idea of ``heavy'' is likely biased...i think your proposal to concentrate on quitting this behaviour - forget about whether it is damaging your liver, brain, memory, etc. for the moment, as there are more pressing issues at hand - is the best plan. it makes the other queries irrelevant: one of the reasons i do not post questions concerning use of alcohol/drugs in addition to the drugs prescribed to me is that i do not mix them. hence, no worries about marijuana, alcohol, etc. this does not mean i am worry-free: it means i have less to worry about, and that is very attractive to me...perhaps you can try a similar tack...***
>
> I am considering doing another geographic -- leaving New York and heading back to California, where I was drug and (mostly) alcohol free for 18 months, near family, and stable in my job. I know, this probably sounds like a "band aid," but I wonder if the East Villege is not the best mileau.**** it depends on what you are doing there, really...yours truly hails from the nyc metro area, and the perils of my youth are no longer present when i visit: the closest i come to living on the edge is banking on the NR to exhibit some sort of regular schedule. i would recommend heavier use of zagat's and more visits to the guggenheim, the whitney, and moma for a good start. i realize that the temptations are many in the city, and that turning the channel, as it were, is difficult. however, i am certain that the night-life in los angeles and san francisco rivals that of n.y.c., and the party scene can be found by those who look for it...*****
>
> More erudite thoughts welcome!
>
> And for the record, chemist (and you know this), erudite means "out of rudeness (ignorance)". So that was, in fact, a complement.*** many thanks, and tongue firmly in cheek in previous, of course...****
>
> a
Posted by chemist on May 8, 2005, at 12:54:10
In reply to Ugh -- ketamine vacuoles, Olney's Lesions » Larry Hoover, posted by AMD on May 7, 2005, at 21:17:31
hello again...this is beginning to remind me of a section of joseph heller's finest, where Ewing's tumor makes a cameo...larry not only is more intelligent and experienced than i, he is a toxicologist and thus much more savvy with things of this sort...i will reiterate my previous statement in reference to one way to avoid things related to intake of booze and party favors that are not regulated by our government (no snickering, please): do not ingest (nor inhale). while this is easier said than done for alcohol and cigarettes, the added dimension of the current state of criminalization of cocaine, marijuana, and ketamine (as used by humans, at least) should help in deterring their use...yours, c
> Would one bump of K be enough to trigger "Olney's Lesions" or the vaculoes seen in rats?
>
> Also, I forgot in my last post to state that I'm taking Lamictal, Celexa, and had Seroquel about 8-10 hours after first going to bed in order to get more sleep. Did these drugs exasperate or block the K's effects?
>
> Just what I need. Now I'm going to be walking around imaging little holes in my cells, and think I have brain damage. Ugh!
>
> amd
Posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 18:28:26
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » AMD, posted by Larry Hoover on May 8, 2005, at 9:01:00
Thank you for the responses. I'm still feeling a bit depressed and thus also all the effects that go with it: memory is blunted, recall slow; it's hard to get out of bed; I want to sleep constantly (which is easy to do when you have a bottle of Seroquel handy). So until this passes, I'll be in full-on "freak out" mode.
You're right, this is definitely heavy use, and it's definitely a prohibition breaking cycle given my post-use guilt.
I keep thinking: "What did you do, what did you do, what did you do?" And hoping at any minute the capacity to smile will return, life will look good again, and my hopes and desires won't seem as unattainable as they do now.
I should never play such a mental crap shoot with my brain. I can't believe all the substances I mixed -- that's eight or nine different chemicals in there playing with one another. Not a good idea, amd.
The kick-starter for all of this is that first drink: it lowers my inhibitions, and the next thing I know I'll do anything. I'm sure if heroin had been present at the time I'd have injected. So on the one hand I will freak out about the damage I may have done with the K, while on the other I count myself lucky it stopped with that.
I am just afraid that something is mixed up in my head now, especially after doing the ketamine, and that whatever is mixed up my brain won't be able to unmix.
One day at a time, I suppose. Perhaps in a week I'll have a clear head again and can do what it takes not to have a repeat of this.
I need to change my surroundings, too. I live above a bar; I date a woman who indulges. Both, I think, need to go. Sure, in theory it's me who has to change. But their presence is definitely not helping.
I need counseling, and help.
I hope I will be all right. I don't want my memory to be destroyed because I did an animal tranquilizer one night. (So ketamine has never been used on humans? And if it has, this amount -- 25 - 75 mg of powdered K -- would not call permanent damage?)
Larry, chemist -- I'll try to quit bugging you guys with questions. Next time I'll do a Google search and look for the previous answers you supplied, which will invariably address my concerns.
amd
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 8, 2005, at 18:53:32
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » Larry Hoover, posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 18:28:26
> The kick-starter for all of this is that first drink: it lowers my inhibitions, and the next thing I know I'll do anything.
Another AA saying: "One drink, one drunk."
It all starts with one. You have to not take that first one.
I hope you come to terms with that. Not using substances means managing the first use.
> One day at a time, I suppose.
One hour at a time. One minute at a time. One second at a time. Take as small a slice of life that you need, to make it manageable.
> I need to change my surroundings, too. I live above a bar; I date a woman who indulges. Both, I think, need to go. Sure, in theory it's me who has to change. But their presence is definitely not helping.
You're quick to see the implications. Another saying: "You have to change your play places, your play people, and your play things."
The point is, using is situational. If you stay out of bars, you stand a much better chance of not taking that first drink.
> I need counseling, and help.
Good idea. You are not alone.
> I hope I will be all right. I don't want my memory to be destroyed because I did an animal tranquilizer one night. (So ketamine has never been used on humans? And if it has, this amount -- 25 - 75 mg of powdered K -- would not call permanent damage?)Ketamine is still used in humans. It used to be employed much more frequently than it is today, but it still has uses in anaesthesiology.
> Larry, chemist -- I'll try to quit bugging you guys with questions. Next time I'll do a Google search and look for the previous answers you supplied, which will invariably address my concerns.
>
> amdDon't worry about questions. The only stupid question is the one not asked.
I like questions.
And I like you. So don't worry about it, okay?
Lar
Posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 19:08:08
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » AMD, posted by Larry Hoover on May 8, 2005, at 18:53:32
Larry,
I don't know where I'd be without your support. Same goes for chemist. Still in trouble, but certainly better off than I'd be stuck in my own swirling head. I'm trying to stay optimistic about tomorrow, rather than worrying about yesterday. What happened happened: the best I can hope for is that over time if there was any damage, it will repair itself. The fact that I'm writing this, thinking about my problem ... well, I haven't lost all cognition yet.
Can I look forward to feeling better every day, without drugs or alcohol in my life? Has the repairing begun ... will tomorrow feel clearer than the next day, and so forth?
New question: would ketamine interfere with the efficacy of Lamictal, which I've been taking and which has kept me more-or-less stable aside from when I'm misbehaving?
I am going to try to go run at the gym now, stay positive. The more I think about the stuff I put into myself Thursday night, the more I panic. Need to keep my mind off that and concentrate on things that make me think and thus reaffirm that I haven't yet completely lost it.
So, again: has recovery begun, at least mentally? Or can I expect to wake up tomorrow worse off than today? (That is, are any of the changes induced by these chemicals of delayed onset?)
On a completely separate topic -- I've been on Celexa for several years. My pdoc has begun lowering the dose, and says it might actually improve my concentration and mood. Is this possible? I've read SSRI's can actually decrease dopamine levels, and I'm curious to see if my old energy level, enthusiasm and concentration will actually improve upon lowering the Celexa dose (very, very slowly of course).
amd
Posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 19:09:48
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » Larry Hoover, posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 19:08:08
It occurs to me an XML feed of dr-bob.org postings would be useful for those of us not completely sated by our current addiction (a much healthier addiction it is, I must add).
I should spend more time on the Social board. I bet there are some good ideas for reading, music, leisure activities over on that board.
amd
Posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 20:29:28
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » Larry Hoover, posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 19:08:08
I misspoke in this post: I mean, will tomorrow will better, /then/ the next day better still, and so forth?
amd
Posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 2:29:03
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » Larry Hoover, posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 18:28:26
> Thank you for the responses. I'm still feeling a bit depressed and thus also all the effects that go with it: memory is blunted, recall slow; it's hard to get out of bed; I want to sleep constantly (which is easy to do when you have a bottle of Seroquel handy). So until this passes, I'll be in full-on "freak out" mode.
*** i hope you get some rest: aside from the implications of an unpleasant pattern emerging, you are being rather proactive (in my opinion) and addressing the issues before your weekend is a seven-day-long affair...*****
>
> You're right, this is definitely heavy use, and it's definitely a prohibition breaking cycle given my post-use guilt.**** whatever the reason(s), the mixing and matching is not helping...nor is the guilt, which i see as being as detrimental at this point as a big night on the town. again, it comes down to things that can be chosen and things that must be worked upon with vigor. if you can eliminate one chemical variable from the mix every so often, you make the big picture much clearer to yourself..***
>
> I keep thinking: "What did you do, what did you do, what did you do?" And hoping at any minute the capacity to smile will return, life will look good again, and my hopes and desires won't seem as unattainable as they do now.**** you've got the guilts, my chum. throw in a jumbo chemical cocktail + hangover and some depression and there you have it: a recipe that is good for many days thereafter...****
>
> I should never play such a mental crap shoot with my brain. I can't believe all the substances I mixed -- that's eight or nine different chemicals in there playing with one another. Not a good idea, amd.
>
> The kick-starter for all of this is that first drink: it lowers my inhibitions, and the next thing I know I'll do anything. I'm sure if heroin had been present at the time I'd have injected. So on the one hand I will freak out about the damage I may have done with the K, while on the other I count myself lucky it stopped with that.**** next time i come north, i'll meet you in newark and introduce you to my dead friends, as we head into the city via the path and j.c. i have one remaining living heroin addict friend, who is fresh out of rehab #7, and picked up hep C this last go 'round. she is 36 years old and has been shooting smack since we were kids - 14 years old. some kids play with dolls; others play with a kit and know how to spike a dose under their toenails to make sure mom doesn't see the tracks. if you are doing anything that loosens you to the point that you would be game for booting junk, stop right now. immediately. being the chatty drunk is one thing; the dead guy on the sofa the morning after is another. stay away from the sh*t and anything that puts you near it. ****
>
> I am just afraid that something is mixed up in my head now, especially after doing the ketamine, and that whatever is mixed up my brain won't be able to unmix.**** listen to larry. and listen to me about the next step you might have taken. the k is the least of your problems. you do not know if you even did the drug advertised, and the quantity was miniscule. you could be headed for a bigger ride on a one-way street if you don't watch it. cross ``powders: misc. and other'' off the list of party favors. ****
>
> One day at a time, I suppose. Perhaps in a week I'll have a clear head again and can do what it takes not to have a repeat of this.
>
> I need to change my surroundings, too. I live above a bar; I date a woman who indulges. Both, I think, need to go. Sure, in theory it's me who has to change. But their presence is definitely not helping.**** you will not change the location of the bar, methinks: whether your relationship weathers a more tame outing remains to be seen. there are bars and liquor stores all over the place, and i am not sure that a change of venue will be effective in areas other than getting to bed earlier and not spending cash on booze just downstairs. your call...****
>
> I need counseling, and help.
>
> I hope I will be all right. I don't want my memory to be destroyed because I did an animal tranquilizer one night. (So ketamine has never been used on humans? And if it has, this amount -- 25 - 75 mg of powdered K -- would not call permanent damage?)**** i need help and counseling, too. and so i go. questionable as to whether it's working, but i have to try. ketamine has been used on humans - i mentioned the therapeutic category (vet) only to emphasize that (1) it is an anesthetic to be administered intravenously; and (2) none of us has any business using anesthetics for recreational purposes. again, worry about the acetylated morphine that you claim would unquestionably be a go if you had a few drinks in you: try finding ketamine vs. smack and you'll see why the former is of little consequence. *****
>
> Larry, chemist -- I'll try to quit bugging you guys with questions. Next time I'll do a Google search and look for the previous answers you supplied, which will invariably address my concerns.
>
> amd**** i would be disappointed if the dialog came to a halt, personally. and i do not claim to be anything more than a scientist with a stack of reasonably well-read and reviewed sources in my possession when i state that a google search on anything drug-related == cat >& /dev/null. keywords in another tab for ketamine and brain damage yield: (1) some forum of posters, a few seeking to contact ``Mr. White'' in order to ease the damage from ketamine use, although one poster writes ``Please Use ketamin with great caution.'' this is beyond lousy advice and well into a recipe for disaster. and the first hit on google. (2) takes you to drugscope, where you learn that ketamine isn't all that bad after all - there are citations, although i would not wager that taking it for fun is a good idea. on the same website, you can go to ``Heroin misconceptions'' where you learn that ``That heroin is addictive is a fact. Heroin is not however, instantly or even nearly instantly addictive (neither is crack cocaine or any other substance). This idea is based upon a fundamental misunderstanding of addiction and the supposed power of addiction. Research consistently shows that becoming addicted to any drug takes time, usually 2-3 months (often much longer) where the user builds up to regular daily use.'' another ringing endorsement for giving yourself at least 3 months - and longer - of daily heroin use to see if you get hooked. you can ask google or your dealer about smack, and you'll get a more honest answer from your dealer; (3) back to the same site in #2; (4) the national institute on drug abuse (NIDA), the first hit that actually has a basis in fact. frankly, you are better off with larry and the rest of PB: i have to close that google tab as the smell of bulls*it is permeating my apartment, and it's not coming from me. be well, yours, c
Posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 4:01:12
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » AMD, posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 19:09:48
> It occurs to me an XML feed of dr-bob.org postings would be useful for those of us not completely sated by our current addiction (a much healthier addiction it is, I must add).
>
> I should spend more time on the Social board. I bet there are some good ideas for reading, music, leisure activities over on that board.
>
> amdit's a nice facet of the PB community that is refreshing, especially when compared to a grumpy person such as myself. regardless of one's disposition, all are welcome, and there is no shortage of ideas and support. if you like, i will be more than happy to detail the names and locations of some excellent coffeehouses in your general location, and tell you the name of the most excellent waitperson working at aqua grill - shoot me a babblemail...do follow through on stopping in at social!! best, c
Posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 4:02:28
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » AMD, posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 20:29:28
> I misspoke in this post: I mean, will tomorrow will better, /then/ the next day better still, and so forth?
>
> amdyes. with time comes return to quasi-equilibrium. yours, c
Posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 4:04:23
In reply to Re: ŕ votre santé (nm) » chemist, posted by Larry Hoover on May 6, 2005, at 22:54:15
Posted by AMD on May 9, 2005, at 15:14:50
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » AMD, posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 2:29:03
>
>
> *** i hope you get some rest: aside from the implications of an unpleasant pattern emerging, you are being rather proactive (in my opinion) and addressing the issues before your weekend is a seven-day-long affair...*****My current psychiatrist has told me flat out she doesn't deal with drug problems: which means in being honest with her Wednesday, my next appointment, I risk having to find a new doctor. I'm sure she'll have some pointers, but I was very comfortable with her, so it will be disappointing to have to search once more for the right psychiatrist.
> **** whatever the reason(s), the mixing and matching is not helping...nor is the guilt, which i see as being as detrimental at this point as a big night on the town. again, it comes down to things that can be chosen and things that must be worked upon with vigor. if you can eliminate one chemical variable from the mix every so often, you make the big picture much clearer to yourself..***
I woke up today extremely tired, very spaced-out, and generally distressed. Now that I'm at the office, things are a bit better. But I still have that lingering "you f'd up your brain, buddyboy!" in the back of my mind. Mental exercise helps. Mental exercise and some hope. It's the latter that's difficult to scrounge up.
I also have this feel I'll look zombified for the rest of my life. See Charlie Sheen. Notice the emptiness in his eyes. Am I headed for the same fate? Am I already there?
> **** you've got the guilts, my chum. throw in a jumbo chemical cocktail + hangover and some depression and there you have it: a recipe that is good for many days thereafter...****
Seventy two hours and counting. Still feeling more-or-less horrible, but hoping in a day or two I'll start feeling better.
> **** next time i come north, i'll meet you in newark and introduce you to my dead friends, as we
Seriously, it'd be great to see you! You and Larry are my saviors. My forte is technology, but I've picked up a couple chemistry books given my heightened interest in the subject. So much to learn.
With regard to learning, interesting article in today's New Yorker on how "pop culture" may actually be making us more intelligent in certain areas. Complexity of TV programs today (filling in the blanks, etc.), more social interaction with and more challening video games, and so forth. You might find it interesting.
I say no, no way I'll do smack or crank. But the fact that I didn't think twice about the bump of K, and that, now, it's really freaking me out (at least I /know/ how cocaine will affect my body and the prognosis of recovery following a binge), well -- who knows?
> **** listen to larry. and listen to me about the next step you might have taken. the k is the least of your problems. you do not know if you even did the drug advertised, and the quantity was miniscule. you could be headed for a bigger ride
It was definitely K -- but the quantity was rather small, and I didn't feel /any/ effect from it. I wonder if the SSRI or other medications I'm taking actually blocked its effects, much like they block the effects of MDMA (I popped three ecstacy tablets one night with no discernable effect). In any case, given that I certainly didn't have an out-of-body experience, nor trouble standing up, I am hoping its overall influence on my brain was minimal.
> **** you will not change the location of the bar, methinks: whether your relationship weathers
Here I'm not sure I agree. I think there are triggers in certain places where I used to indulge a few years ago before it became a problem -- certain people too, who frequent these places. So I think in some way the "scene," as it's lovingly called, somehow triggers in me a desire to take drugs that in other places might not be triggered.
[Disgression: Is it me, or do I sound illiterate in these postings? Clear evidence something was knocked around.]
> **** i would be disappointed if the dialog came to a halt, personally. and i do not claim to be anything more than a scientist with a stack of reasonably well-read and reviewed sources in my possession when i state that a google search on anything drug-related == cat >& /dev/null.
I agree on this -- a Google search is about the worst thing I could do. I spend ten hours online searching for "ketamine and brain damage" and, yep, got all the links you did. Where do you think I came up with Olney's lesions? Anyhow, now I'm afraid to search again. I'll just hope your knowledge of this is more accurate than The Good Drug Guide ... I have a hunch it is.
ringing endorsement for giving yourself at least 3 months - and longer - of daily heroin use to see if you get hooked.
I assume this is bad advice ... what about the 2-3 months to get "hooked" -- is there any basis in fact for that? (I assume, then, that one bump of ketamine would be rather benign -- knock on wood.)
*** you can ask google or your
dealer about smack, and you'll get a more honest answer from your dealer; ***Now that's funny, chemist. :-)
Well ... sounds to me I need to send a little SIGTERM to my nasty powdery habit.
amd
Posted by AMD on May 9, 2005, at 15:16:45
In reply to yup, and nice people too.... » AMD, posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 4:01:12
>
> it's a nice facet of the PB community that is refreshing, especially when compared to a grumpy person such as myself. regardless of one's disposition, all are welcome, and there is no shortage of ideas and support. if you like, i will be more than happy to detail the names and locations of some excellent coffeehouses in your general location, and tell you the name of the most excellent waitperson working at aqua grill - shoot me a babblemail...do follow through on stopping in at social!! best, c
>
Please do -- I worship at the church of Starbucks (where did I get that reference? ``Noonday Demon,'' I believe). The plus there is the T-Mobile wireless access. Now they just need a few PSP players to balance out my workload.amd
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 9, 2005, at 16:33:09
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » chemist, posted by AMD on May 9, 2005, at 15:14:50
Sorry, just skimming quickly right now, but this popped out at me.
> I agree on this -- a Google search is about the worst thing I could do. I spend ten hours online searching for "ketamine and brain damage" and, yep, got all the links you did. Where do you think I came up with Olney's lesions? Anyhow, now I'm afraid to search again. I'll just hope your knowledge of this is more accurate than The Good Drug Guide ... I have a hunch it is.
If you want to get the dirt on drugs (the good, the bad, the ugly), look no further than:
http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/psychoactives.shtml
Same source, different entry:
http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=690Different, but similar, info source:
http://leda.lycaeum.org/?Table=ChemicalsLar
Posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 19:22:38
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » chemist, posted by AMD on May 9, 2005, at 15:14:50
moer asterisks below!!!:
> My current psychiatrist has told me flat out she doesn't deal with drug problems: which means in being honest with her Wednesday, my next appointment, I risk having to find a new doctor. I'm sure she'll have some pointers, but I was very comfortable with her, so it will be disappointing to have to search once more for the right psychiatrist.
>
**** i wonder if you can agree to a pact of sorts that is conditional on simultaneous visits to, say, the drug/alcohol folks or going to a.a./n.a. meetings? ****> I woke up today extremely tired, very spaced-out, and generally distressed. Now that I'm at the office, things are a bit better. But I still have that lingering "you f'd up your brain, buddyboy!" in the back of my mind. Mental exercise helps. Mental exercise and some hope. It's the latter that's difficult to scrounge up.
>
> I also have this feel I'll look zombified for the rest of my life. See Charlie Sheen. Notice the emptiness in his eyes. Am I headed for the same fate? Am I already there?**** if you are straight-to-dvd, then the answer is ``yes.'' otherwise, no. *****
>
> Seventy two hours and counting. Still feeling more-or-less horrible, but hoping in a day or two I'll start feeling better.**** reality check: 3 days after a weeknight out and still (i suspect) dehydrated and all mixed-up. something has got to go, and pronto, if only for the immediate sake of keeping your job, income, and meds steady. ****
>
> Seriously, it'd be great to see you! You and Larry are my saviors. My forte is technology, but I've picked up a couple chemistry books given my heightened interest in the subject. So much to learn.**** well, i have certainly been labeled many things on PB, but this is a first for ``savior.'' if you want an excuse that kills two birds with one stone: take an amount of money you would budget for ``casual drinks'' on a monday night and make it a mission to secure a used copy of a recent version of a biochemistry textbook (this assumes 2 or 3 nyc-priced drinks and that voet & voet is fetching $40-$50 used). then start reading.*****
>
> With regard to learning, interesting article in today's New Yorker on how "pop culture" may actually be making us more intelligent in certain areas. Complexity of TV programs today (filling in the blanks, etc.), more social interaction with and more challening video games, and so forth. You might find it interesting.**** not to mention anthony lane's acerbic movie reviews, assuming i am not out of date...thanks, will check ****
>
> I say no, no way I'll do smack or crank. But the fact that I didn't think twice about the bump of K, and that, now, it's really freaking me out (at least I /know/ how cocaine will affect my body and the prognosis of recovery following a binge), well -- who knows?**** be prepared to face the ``n.y.c. velvet underground heroin challenge:'' what about chasing the dragon? or a small snort? not the same as a needle, after all, and perhaps still the rage with people who ``aren't junkies'' and make lots of $$$: i don't know. i also don't know if one can state with a straight face that one mode of delivery of heroin is somehow more justifiable than another. i figure this is a drug best never investigated, period, although that's just me...***
>
> It was definitely K -- but the quantity was rather small, and I didn't feel /any/ effect from it. I wonder if the SSRI or other medications I'm taking actually blocked its effects, much like they block the effects of MDMA (I popped three ecstacy tablets one night with no discernable effect). In any case, given that I certainly didn't have an out-of-body experience, nor trouble standing up, I am hoping its overall influence on my brain was minimal.
>
**** i know this is easy for me to pen but: IF you do not bother with ketamine and other drugs that you do need to make an effort to find THEN you will be spared the worry. and by the way, you got ripped-off on the ``MDMA,'' my man....****> Here I'm not sure I agree. I think there are triggers in certain places where I used to indulge a few years ago before it became a problem -- certain people too, who frequent these places. So I think in some way the "scene," as it's lovingly called, somehow triggers in me a desire to take drugs that in other places might not be triggered.
>
*** well, sounds reasonable, and familiar: sights and sounds trigger memories and behaviours...next time you get the urge, make it a point to wait until you are inside the velvet rope at the palladium (yes, this is a trick question) before you use any drugs...****> [Disgression: Is it me, or do I sound illiterate in these postings? Clear evidence something was knocked around.]
**** not to me, but i am hardly one to judge....why worry about it? *****
>
> I agree on this -- a Google search is about the worst thing I could do. I spend ten hours online searching for "ketamine and brain damage" and, yep, got all the links you did. Where do you think I came up with Olney's lesions? Anyhow, now I'm afraid to search again. I'll just hope your knowledge of this is more accurate than The Good Drug Guide ... I have a hunch it is.**** my ``secret'' to the occasional nugget of fact has been divulged numerous times: www dot pubmed dot org for abstracts of refereed literature; www dot fda dot gov for the gateway to the, um, obvious (?) place one would think one could find actual real information concerning patents, medwatch, and other drug-related info in the u.s.; the physician's desk reference, although you can collect the exact monographs contained in the bound copy for free by going to the pharma's web site and downloading the PDF for ``prescribing information for doctors'' (usually phrased like this, in my experience), a free service that is almost always overlooked (if you want information about celexa, would you believe that forest labs., the manufacturer, has actually set up an entire website at www dot celexa dot com? my first guess was www dot forest dot com, and no dice. and the PDF i promised is two clicks into the website); a bookshelf of new and used science books; your local library - you have so many it is a joke to refer to just one - such as one of the branches at NYU, say, houses journals that can be photocopied and if student status is a problem, settle for the slightly larger accomodations uptown; larry's sites/sayings/etc.; and there are numerous texts that are specific for malady, ranging from those adjusted for the layperson to those that are for specialists in the field (goodwin and jamison's ``manic depression'' is one of my favorites as it is quite literally overflowing with information about everything including manic depression, and this is one of many that should not be judged by its title); a read that is 50% Centrum, 50% synthesis, and 50% east bay flavored to equal 100% wacky and a must-have: ``PIKHAL,'' by shulgin and shulgin (yes, sasha and ann, and the more recent ``TIKHAL,'' shulgin the first); and so on.....***
>
> I assume this is bad advice ... what about the 2-3 months to get "hooked" -- is there any basis in fact for that? (I assume, then, that one bump of ketamine would be rather benign -- knock on wood.)***** yes, amd, it IS bad advice to try ketamine or heroin for a 3-month stint to validate something you read on the Internet. let others share their reports with you, hmmm???? *****
>
> *** you can ask google or your
> dealer about smack, and you'll get a more honest answer from your dealer; ***
>
> Now that's funny, chemist. :-)***** funny and a savior! all in one....*****
>
> Well ... sounds to me I need to send a little SIGTERM to my nasty powdery habit.
>
> amd***** actually, kill -9 and renice +20 on the booze before you have gone and executed
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/brain......more UNIX hilarity to follow, i am certain....good grepping, c *****
Posted by AMD on May 9, 2005, at 20:00:04
In reply to .... » AMD, posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 19:22:38
> ***** actually, kill -9 and renice +20 on the booze before you have gone and executed
> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/brain......more UNIX hilarity to follow, i am certain....good grepping, c *****I fear if I submit too much UNIX'ry I'll reveal my true identity, if that tells you something. (I think you know it already, however.)
So, in a nutshell: refrain from drug use and be OK? Else it's $brain =~ s,substance,mush,gi;
I know you answered this, but the ketamine, all that fun this weekend -- I'll be OK, even if it takes awhile?
At least I've had a somewhat productive day at work.
amd
Posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 20:05:17
In reply to Re: ...., posted by AMD on May 9, 2005, at 20:00:04
Posted by AMD on May 9, 2005, at 20:13:41
In reply to yes, you are FINE! (nm) » AMD, posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 20:05:17
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 10, 2005, at 3:59:36
In reply to Re: chemist: alcohol? how much? » AMD, posted by AMD on May 8, 2005, at 19:09:48
> It occurs to me an XML feed of dr-bob.org postings would be useful
Try:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/threads.rdf
Bob
Posted by AMD on May 10, 2005, at 15:45:19
In reply to Re: XML feed, posted by Dr. Bob on May 10, 2005, at 3:59:36
Excellent.
Thanks Dr. Bob.
amd
Posted by AuntieMel on May 11, 2005, at 10:55:34
In reply to .... » AMD, posted by chemist on May 9, 2005, at 19:22:38
kill -9 should only be used as a last resort. kill without the -9 should be tried first - it allows the program to do some cleanup.
Sounds like some cleanup would be a good idea.
Posted by AMD on May 11, 2005, at 16:52:16
In reply to Re: a slight correction » chemist, posted by AuntieMel on May 11, 2005, at 10:55:34
Here we go with the UNIXisms.
# rm -rf * .txt
amd
This is the end of the thread.
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