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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2005, at 21:06:31
Here's one man's story.
Recovery Without God
(©1999 World Service Office, Inc.)It seems that I've been searching all of my life for something to believe in. Finally, in 1982, after fifteen years of nonstop drug abuse, I crawled into the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. Though I was barely recognizable as a human being, I found in those rooms the hope that had eluded me for so long.
Upon receiving my first hug at my first NA meeting, I knew that I had come home. What I found especially appealing were the choices I had been given -- the choice to not use, just for today, and the choice to have a Higher Power of my own understanding. For the most part, not using just for today proved to be much easier than finding a Higher Power.
Over the years in recovery, I tried many different gods: Jesus, Buddha, Saraswati, Vishnu, and countless others. But I found that trying to believe in an intangible and invisible being or force left me empty and longing for more.
What worked for me in early recovery, as well as today, is using the group as a power greater than myself. Actually it is the unconditional love that I get from the group and members of NA that I believe is a Higher Power -- certainly greater than anything of which I'm capable alone.
Does this mean that I pray or meditate to the group? Of course not. Prayer is simply a petition, and meditation merely reflecting -- it does not have to be directed to anything, anyone, or any deity in particular.
How can I possibly have any purpose or meaning in my life without a god? I believe my purpose in life is to develop into the best me that I can be.
Finally, with what do I maintain a conscious contact, and from where do I seek comfort, if not a god? Today I find comfort in knowing that I am living a healthy, good, clean life and that I am not harming others or myself. I can maintain a conscious contact by holding love close to my heart.
I seek to do the right thing for the right reason. I attempt to move my life forward in a good, orderly direction, and I do my best to incorporate the principles of our steps, traditions, and concepts into each day, I stay close to the program by going to meetings and sharing with my sponsor and sponsees. Today I accept my humanity. I know I'm not perfect, just a perfect human being.
My most significant spiritual awakening was when I realized that the power is in me. I cannot rely on a mythical being or force to do for me what I cannot do for myself, nor do I wish to. After a lifetime spent trying to be everything to everyone, I now know that it begins and ends with me. I have to do the footwork, I must make the effort, and I need to seek the solutions.
As it states in It Works: How and Why, today I have the ability to "live with dignity, love myself and others, laugh, and find great joy and beauty in my surroundings." I believe that life is an adventure waiting for me to discover all of its intricacies, not something to dread. I embrace the life that NA has given me today, and in spite of all the pain, loss, grief, and fear that I've experienced over the years, I relish every waking moment. I love life today.
I recently read something that, for me, says it all: "The meaning of life is to live a life of meaning." Today, with the help of NA, its principles, the friends I've made, and the people I've met along the way, I'm capable of living such a life.
-- Anonymous
Posted by spriggy on November 25, 2005, at 14:32:49
In reply to Atheist in NA, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2005, at 21:06:31
That's an interesting article..
One thing I find very interesting ( mind you, I am a Christian), is that people seem to have to work very, very hard in convincing themselves they don't need God or that He doesn't exist.
My personal opinion is because He engrained in us ( in our creation) the need to know Him- which is why nearly everyone at some point in their life seeks to find Him or asks, " Are you real God?"
Posted by alexandra_k on November 25, 2005, at 17:14:59
In reply to Re: Atheist in NA, posted by spriggy on November 25, 2005, at 14:32:49
> One thing I find very interesting ( mind you, I am a Christian), is that people seem to have to work very, very hard in convincing themselves they don't need God or that He doesn't exist.
???
I haven't found that to be the case for me...
Regarding the existence of God...
If you are talking about omni-god
(an external agency who is all powerful, all loving, and all good / benevolent) then...
I think the very notion is self-contradictory
Hence necessarily false
Hence such a God cannot possibly exist.People debate this...
But I have to say, thats my take.With respect to needing God...
God doesn't buy me anything I can't get without God.
A reason to be a good person
A reason to have hope
A reason to be kind and compassionate to others
A reason to have good company with like minded individualsAnd the costs...
Some people manage to get to spirituality via religions
Other people manage to get to spirituality without religion; without the notion of god (omnigod); without the notion of a higher power (a manifestation of omni-god).(IMO) The trouble with religion...
Is that oftentimes it does not lead to spirituality
And yet... The majority of religions sell themselves as the 'only way'
And religious doctines have been used to justify all kinds of horrible acts.Scientists used to run the risk of being killed for saying things that went against church doctrine.
The earth goes around the sun...
God doesn't exist...
People are mammals who evolved via the processes of natural selection just like all the other mammals...
> My personal opinion is because He engrained in us ( in our creation) the need to know Him- which is why nearly everyone at some point in their life seeks to find Him or asks, " Are you real God?"Trademark. Who was it... Descartes. He had the trademark argument for the existence of God. God is the master craftsman and he placed his trademark on his creation. Every person has one. The idea of God.
There are alternative theories as to where the idea of God came from...
Posted by spriggy on November 27, 2005, at 13:46:59
In reply to Re: Atheist in NA » spriggy, posted by alexandra_k on November 25, 2005, at 17:14:59
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 15:18:15
In reply to utterly and completey disagree... but that's okay (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by spriggy on November 27, 2005, at 13:46:59
i know you think god exists...
and i dont'...so we disagree there ;-)
but my point was that i really don't think i had to work very hard to believe that...
but perhaps you think i did???
you think god buys you something you can't get without belief in god?
where else do you disagree?
(just if you want to talk - i do mean this respectfully)
Posted by spriggy on November 27, 2005, at 22:30:06
In reply to Re: sorry, disagree about what? » spriggy, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 15:18:15
Sorry- I should've explained..
Obviously, I don't agree that God doesn't exist.
How you concluded that in your heart and mind is not something I can possibly know.
Here is something I do disagree with though:
"you think god buys you something you can't get without belief in god?"
Coming from my experience ( of not believing in God at one time to now knowing He exists), I do believe there are many things you can't access without Him.
The main one being the certainty of where you go after you die. We all will die one day- me, you, everyone... what happens afterwards?
Knowing my Redeemer lives and that I am promised a place with Him forever, is a peace that can't be obtained through any other way..
:)My two cents..
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 22:53:19
In reply to Re: sorry, disagree about what?, posted by spriggy on November 27, 2005, at 22:30:06
> Obviously, I don't agree that God doesn't exist.
yeah :-)
> How you concluded that in your heart and mind is not something I can possibly know.
ah. logic. i unpacked the notion of omni-god and found myself a contradiction ;-)
(though i will say that other scholars unpack the notion of omni-god and appeal to theodicies - which is the name given to a defence of god in the face of the problem of evil...)
> "you think god buys you something you can't get without belief in god?"> Coming from my experience (of not believing in God at one time to now knowing He exists), I do believe there are many things you can't access without Him.
It is senseless for me to doubt your experience...
You found something in believing in god...
That you did not have before you believed in god...okay.
I wonder...
Whether it might have been possible for you to have come to that WITHOUT believing in god...
Lets see...
> The main one being the certainty of where you go after you die. We all will die one day- me, you, everyone... what happens afterwards?
> Knowing my Redeemer lives and that I am promised a place with Him forever, is a peace that can't be obtained through any other way..Is it that you *KNOW* god exists???
Or it is that you *BELIEVE* god exists???I find peace...
In the thought that death is the end.
That my conscious experience will cease...
That there will be no more pain.But...
I do not claim to know what will happen to me after my body disintegrates.
I do not know.
I like to think it is the end...
But it might not be...
Maybe...There is more than one route to peace?
Posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 14:11:14
In reply to Re: sorry, disagree about what? » spriggy, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 22:53:19
ahhhh.. this copy and paste dialogue is fun isn't it? ROFL ;)
Here, tis' my turn:
"ah. logic. i unpacked the notion of omni-god and found myself a contradiction ;-)"
Could you explain the contradiction you found?Is it that a Holy, loving, and just God knowing all things' could not allow pain and suffering?
Just wondering- that was my "biggie" with the Big man too. ;)
"I wonder...
Whether it might have been possible for you to have come to that WITHOUT believing in god..."Nope... not at all for me. It's like trying to feed a hungry person with an empty fork. :)
"Is it that you *KNOW* god exists???
Or it is that you *BELIEVE* god exists???"
Trust me... I KNOW He exists. He has proven Himself WAAAY too real to me to ever deny Him. My husband has loved me unconditionally for nearly 8 years now- has proven his love to me over and over, because he has proven himself to me, I could not deny for one second that his love for me is real.Same thing with God. I could share my "epiphany" moment with you if you would like- it was nothing short of miraculous.
I should say, that I realize it's politcally correct to say, " whatever you believe is true for you" but I have a different view on that.
I could believe all day long that Whinnie the Pooh is God and when I die I will go to Pooh Land. However, when I take my last breathe, no matter how much I believed it, it won't get me to Pooh Land.
So, either you believe it *because* it is true, OR you believe it is *true* simply becuase you believe it.
I don't think for one second God is God becuase I have chosen to believe in Him. If I never believed in Him or called on His name or acknowledged Him, He would still be just as real. I've never seen Mars, touched it, felt it, or landed on it- I could chose to not believe it but it is still there.
"That my conscious experience will cease...
That there will be no more pain."
I understand that philosphy- I held that belief myself as well at one time. :)I guess, I would question you though that as much as you believe in this ( or actually maybe not since you said you don't know), what would happen if death came to you and you realized you were wrong?
And yes, you could ask me the same question. :) fair game.
"There is more than one route to peace?"
Can you live a peaceful existence and life without God? I don't doubt that. Can you know complete peace? No, I don't think so. Because I believe until we know our Creator, we always search and long.This is so cliche' but what the heck', there was a song:
"there's a God shaped hole in all of us, and the restless soul is searching. There's a God shaped hole in all of us, it's a void.. that only He can fill."
I believe that- you can fill that void with all sorts of things, but in the end, I think you end up empty.
I know, I tried it. :)
Posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 14:15:26
In reply to Re: sorry, disagree about what?, posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 14:11:14
I am not trying to be self righteous in the least bit- I am actually enjoying our little dialogue on theology. :)In fact, I would MUCH rather hang out with a person who says they don't believe in God, than soemone who claims to be a Christian and treats other's like crap while sticking their self righteous- " I am saved but you are not"- nose in the air..
Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 15:25:16
In reply to Oh and for the record Alexandra, posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 14:15:26
> I am not trying to be self righteous in the least bit-
I haven't gotten the slightest little hint of self-righteousness in the dialogue thus far :-)
> I am actually enjoying our little dialogue on theology. :)
:-)
good.
me too :-)
> In fact, I would MUCH rather hang out with a person who says they don't believe in God, than soemone who claims to be a Christian and treats other's like crap while sticking their self righteous- " I am saved but you are not"- nose in the air..Yeah, I hear you there :-)
And from my perspective...
Some christians (also people from other religions) are indeed very spiritual people who live good lives and I think I could learn a lot from them.(And some athiests too of course)
But I hope you get what I mean...
Posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 18:04:02
In reply to Re: Oh and for the record Alexandra » spriggy, posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 15:25:16
We totally hijacked Larry's thread.
*hi fives Alexandra*
Pretty soon, I imagine Dr. Bob will come in with his broom and sweep us into Faith forum. ROFL
See you "on the other side." ROFL
Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 19:32:06
In reply to Re: Oh and for the record Alexandra, posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 18:04:02
Heh heh
I will continue this...
I'm just struggling a bit at the moment...I don't imagine we will be redirected to faith...
Because it is about religious faith...
And I am an atheist and so I think the preference is for atheists to leave the faith board alone.That being said I used to post arguments for and against the existence of god over there...
;-)
Posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 20:26:48
In reply to Re: Oh and for the record Alexandra, posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 19:32:06
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 3:42:00
In reply to you crack me up! feel better soon.. (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 20:26:48
:-)
thanks.
:-)
i really will... come back to this.
i'm feeling better
:-)
thanks.but i need to work...
getting there...
i am getting there...by the way... i'm not sure how i feel when people talk about threads being 'hijacked'. larry is welcome to join us...
larry????
where did ya get to????
Posted by spriggy on November 29, 2005, at 18:01:30
In reply to Re: you crack me up! feel better soon.., posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 3:42:00
Hey,
" i'm feeling better" Really??? Cuz' I prayed you would.. *wink*
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 1, 2005, at 11:15:17
In reply to Atheist in NA, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2005, at 21:06:31
I wanted to show that there are ways to accomodate any belief structure in the 12 step program. I believe in the program, not certainly as *the* solution, but as a *good* solution, to addictive behaviour.
To practising Christians, the language in which the steps and literature are composed bears not the slightest burden with respect to spirituality. In fact, some meetings I've attended gave off the aura of being church-sanctioned meetings, not simply because they were in a church basement. The difficulty (for e.g. the atheist) arises from those elements of spirituality which are incongruent with religiosity (e.g. Christian doctrine), when the language used is ambiguous (if not biased). For the atheist, it is as if a translation, into a new language, but still English, is required.
Take the Second Tradition, as an example. "For our Group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience; our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern."
The capitalization (and gender) of "He" and "Himself" are Christian traditions. They do not advance the meaning of the statement in the slightest. Where did Higher Power disappear to?
The expression "(capitalized God is the) one ultimate authority" could have come directly from the Bible.And yet, in this very religious-sounding statement lies perhaps the key spiritual statement of the entire program. A possible translation might be: "Our collective goodwill governs all of our actions." Or, at least, that's a derived statement that even an atheist could accept. Moreover, it can be used as a thinking point, with respect to that Higher Power thing over in the steps.
Any Christion, with whom I've had the pleasure of discussing this point, has accepted that it is not necessary to retain explicit reference to God for the intent of the 2nd Tradition to remain accurate, for them. How does God express Himself on this world? Through the acts of people doing His will. His work. Right? And, if you're a Christian contributing to group conscience, God is there.
I've spent a good bit of time and effort trying to see if someone has distilled the essence of how it is that groups of suffering addicts can come together and create wellness. Is it not a basic tenet of the program that "our best thinking got us here", i.e. a life made unmanageable by substance? If we all agree that none of us had it, where did it come from?
From my search of a vast amount of medical and psychological research, it's looking like that single behaviour that most predicts continuing abstinence is the act of helping another addict. And we keep that helping process as pure as it can be, with our 2nd Tradition. "We keep what we have, by giving it away."
It's alchemy. Turning base metal into gold. Any atheist can see that.
Lar
Posted by alesta on December 8, 2005, at 13:03:09
In reply to Atheist in NA, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2005, at 21:06:31
> Here's one man's story.
>
> Recovery Without God
> (©1999 World Service Office, Inc.)
>
> It seems that I've been searching all of my life for something to believe in. Finally, in 1982, after fifteen years of nonstop drug abuse, I crawled into the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. Though I was barely recognizable as a human being, I found in those rooms the hope that had eluded me for so long.
>
> Upon receiving my first hug at my first NA meeting, I knew that I had come home. What I found especially appealing were the choices I had been given -- the choice to not use, just for today, and the choice to have a Higher Power of my own understanding. For the most part, not using just for today proved to be much easier than finding a Higher Power.
>
> Over the years in recovery, I tried many different gods: Jesus, Buddha, Saraswati, Vishnu, and countless others. But I found that trying to believe in an intangible and invisible being or force left me empty and longing for more.
>
> What worked for me in early recovery, as well as today, is using the group as a power greater than myself. Actually it is the unconditional love that I get from the group and members of NA that I believe is a Higher Power -- certainly greater than anything of which I'm capable alone.
>
> Does this mean that I pray or meditate to the group? Of course not. Prayer is simply a petition, and meditation merely reflecting -- it does not have to be directed to anything, anyone, or any deity in particular.
>
> How can I possibly have any purpose or meaning in my life without a god? I believe my purpose in life is to develop into the best me that I can be.
>
> Finally, with what do I maintain a conscious contact, and from where do I seek comfort, if not a god? Today I find comfort in knowing that I am living a healthy, good, clean life and that I am not harming others or myself. I can maintain a conscious contact by holding love close to my heart.
>
> I seek to do the right thing for the right reason. I attempt to move my life forward in a good, orderly direction, and I do my best to incorporate the principles of our steps, traditions, and concepts into each day, I stay close to the program by going to meetings and sharing with my sponsor and sponsees. Today I accept my humanity. I know I'm not perfect, just a perfect human being.
>
> My most significant spiritual awakening was when I realized that the power is in me. I cannot rely on a mythical being or force to do for me what I cannot do for myself, nor do I wish to. After a lifetime spent trying to be everything to everyone, I now know that it begins and ends with me. I have to do the footwork, I must make the effort, and I need to seek the solutions.
>
> As it states in It Works: How and Why, today I have the ability to "live with dignity, love myself and others, laugh, and find great joy and beauty in my surroundings." I believe that life is an adventure waiting for me to discover all of its intricacies, not something to dread. I embrace the life that NA has given me today, and in spite of all the pain, loss, grief, and fear that I've experienced over the years, I relish every waking moment. I love life today.
>
> I recently read something that, for me, says it all: "The meaning of life is to live a life of meaning." Today, with the help of NA, its principles, the friends I've made, and the people I've met along the way, I'm capable of living such a life.
>
> -- Anonymous
>
wow. i really learned something from this...i came to this board in order to get help dealing with my bf/drug addict. i was drawn to this post, and i think it will help me immensely. i need to stop criticizing and judging him. there is just *so much* i have to deal with concerning him, that i am losing my patience. i think i need to try and focus on loving unconditionally, and see what happens.:) i feel like a horrible, judgemental person right now for how i just talked to him. but no one is perfect, like this dude says. i forgive myself, and him. love is the key....always....:)i will also suggest meetings to him, or at least trying to adopt the mindset of staying clean, just for today.
thanks,:)
amy
Posted by vainamoinen on December 20, 2005, at 14:50:52
In reply to Atheist in NA, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2005, at 21:06:31
I think there are only two possibilities. The first: God does not exist, so for the atheist, you are right. Good job.
The second possibility: God exists, but it doesn't care if you believe in it or not. All it wants is for you to be happy, serve others, and to live a useful creative life.
Either way, you're covered. Carry on.
This is the end of the thread.
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