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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 17, 2005, at 11:29:50
I have pain, and I get prescribed opiates. I get much less than pain control, but I also don't get psychoactive effects, unless I mistake the dose, and take a little too much. In fact, that's my feedback mechanism for optimizing dose, staying just under the psychoactive limit.
Does anybody know if there's a similar mechanism with cannabis? A dose that helps pain, but doesn't make you high?
I smoked three lifetimes worth of pot when I was a young man. It's not like I have no experience. I'm just wondering if anyone knows about pain and cannabis.
Thanks.
Lar
Posted by Declan on December 17, 2005, at 18:12:51
In reply to Anybody used medical marijuana?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 17, 2005, at 11:29:50
Hi Larry
About a year ago I had nerve impingement from a disk in my neck, with pain for 6 weeks. Moderate pain, as far as nerve pain goes. I used opiates to a small degree to deal with it, and also marijuana. I thought it was of some use, if only for converting a physical experience into a mental one. At low doses I think the time disconnect effect of cannabis can give some relief, and maybe there is a small degree of analgesia as well.
Declan
Posted by ed_uk on December 17, 2005, at 20:37:39
In reply to Anybody used medical marijuana?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 17, 2005, at 11:29:50
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 18, 2005, at 13:44:30
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana?, posted by Declan on December 17, 2005, at 18:12:51
> Hi Larry
> About a year ago I had nerve impingement from a disk in my neck, with pain for 6 weeks. Moderate pain, as far as nerve pain goes. I used opiates to a small degree to deal with it, and also marijuana. I thought it was of some use, if only for converting a physical experience into a mental one. At low doses I think the time disconnect effect of cannabis can give some relief, and maybe there is a small degree of analgesia as well.
> DeclanI did an uncontrolled experiment last night at a party. Cannabis worked. Hmmmm.
There is a medical license process for legal use of cannabis in Canada, but it is such a heap of red tape. My understanding is that it takes 18 months for initial approval, and you have to renew annually.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 18, 2005, at 13:45:37
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Larry Hoover, posted by ed_uk on December 17, 2005, at 20:37:39
> http://www.gwpharm.co.uk/sativex.asp
Hmmm. Interesting. I don't have MS though. Much to talk about with doctor in new year.
Thanks, Ed.
Lar
Posted by Declan on December 18, 2005, at 22:27:14
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Declan, posted by Larry Hoover on December 18, 2005, at 13:44:30
So Larry, cannabis was of some help in dealing with the pain? Assuming it was, do you think cannabis is analgesic (so to speak), or is it the mental effect of cannabis that makes pain a little easier to bear?
I find *low dose* cannabis a little helpful in the discomfort associated with the last stages of methadone withdrawal which (pathetically) is difficult in going from (say) 0.4mg/d to 0.3mg/d, at least for me with my stubbornly downregulated opiate receptors.
Declan
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 18, 2005, at 23:50:44
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Larry Hoover, posted by Declan on December 18, 2005, at 22:27:14
> So Larry, cannabis was of some help in dealing with the pain? Assuming it was, do you think cannabis is analgesic (so to speak), or is it the mental effect of cannabis that makes pain a little easier to bear?
Ya, it was analgesic, and in just the right way. Unfortunately, language about pain really fails to properly describe what's going on. It seems you have to resort to analogies and metaphors, far too often.
The neuropathy produces a complex pain signal. The opiate (oxycodone) does dampen the pain signal, but leaves some of the characteristics of the pain untouched. Like different channels, some gets through, virtually unscathed. And I take nortriptyline, which didn't seem to do much, until I tried to go off it, and I realized it was significantly dampening the "bass notes", the ache. Then, I had Lyrica added in, and it cut the treble notes, the stabbing, lancinating stuff. But there is still this background humming pain, that can throb or pulse or this painful tingle thing, not responsive to the meds. Or not adequately responding. And I'm still very tender. Walked into the wall the other day (thank you, Lyrica), and I had a lovely moment.
To summarize, it's really a rock (the complex pain) and a hard place (the various drugs....I hate them all). And, I'm exhausted. The drugs cause insomnia.
But, the cannabis was the complement. Seemed to be the missing piece. Now, one exposure does not a pattern create. Moreover, as I have recently learned, there are more types of marijuana out there than I could have imagined. I guess I've got some trials yet to do.
In my long-winded way, I can say there was definite analgesia. Long-lasting analgesia. I'd like to try some different strains, and all that. Indica, sativa, ratios thereof, skunk, white crystal strains......my goodness. And oral vs. smoked vs. vaporized.
And getting a license.....good grief. At least my doctor is onside. I think.
> I find *low dose* cannabis a little helpful in the discomfort associated with the last stages of methadone withdrawal which (pathetically) is difficult in going from (say) 0.4mg/d to 0.3mg/d, at least for me with my stubbornly downregulated opiate receptors.
> DeclanOh, don't be hard on yourself. It is what it is.
You seem to compare it to a mental distraction effect? Have I got that correct? As opposed to analgesia, which would be signal reduction?
I also have to wonder about the psychoactive component. I was at a party. I know I was stoned. (I don't drink.) And today, I had a craving. I'd happily have smoked some more.
This is going to be an interesting process. But if I can cut down on those other drugs, it's got to be worth it, right there.
Thanks for listening. I really appreciate it.
Lar
Posted by Declan on December 19, 2005, at 1:34:42
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Declan, posted by Larry Hoover on December 18, 2005, at 23:50:44
The whole harmony of pain, the solutions for which are problematic. Yeah, well.
Cannabis seems to create little pockets of forgetfulness, which can be useful. When I had that disk pain there was no forgetfulness of the pain, but even when the pain is strong cannabis can make it more entertaining, more a mental event, a distancing, yes, a distraction from the pain.
My experience with available psych drugs has made me cautious. The ones you want are the ones you can't get (this is the substance use board, right?) Cannabis would have to compare favourably with them. A friend was paralysed with pain, some years ago. Amitryptyline was the suggestion. Compared to which....
Declan
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 19, 2005, at 8:55:01
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana?, posted by Declan on December 19, 2005, at 1:34:42
> When I had that disk pain there was no forgetfulness of the pain, but even when the pain is strong cannabis can make it more entertaining, more a mental event, a distancing, yes, a distraction from the pain.
I'll bear that thought in mind, when I am not distracted by dozens of strangers talking.
> My experience with available psych drugs has made me cautious. The ones you want are the ones you can't get (this is the substance use board, right?) Cannabis would have to compare favourably with them. A friend was paralysed with pain, some years ago. Amitryptyline was the suggestion. Compared to which....
>
> DeclanFair enough. The nortriptyline (a little more tolerable than amitrityline) did help, and I still take it. Plus about 80 mg/day oxycodone (Oxycontin and Percocet). Plus 1 mg clonazepam. Plus 200 mg Lyrica. And I'm still debilitated by the pain.
And so I went to my doc, and I asked him straight away.....what about it. And he said he'd prescribe it, for sure, but I don't fit the classification in law that allows him to sign the application for possession. Family doctors can sign for it if I've got cancer, or HIV, or MS, for example. Because I'm just neuropathic, I need two specialist's signatures, and I haven't seen either of them since the issue arose.
In Canada, there are mail order marijuana suppliers. And what are called compassion clubs. They operate in a grey area in law. Not explicitly permitted, but with our new Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the pains taken to document the medical background of each compassion user, I'm certain that this would be a protected right, if it goes to court.
So, there's this nudge-nudge, looking over your shoulder thing, but still a very open trade. I can walk into a storefront and buy marijuana seeds (some with amazing pedigrees), and equipment. Or buy through a club, while i wait for my license (takes a long time.....18 months?).
I can get cookies or chocolate bars, or extracts, or bud. I'm just trying to get where I can do something other than be controlled by pain. And it's a human right, IMHO, to do so.
I appreciate this board's focus, but I did obtain good information here. Perhaps I'll later ask on another board. Which do you think, health or the drug board?
Lar
Posted by Declan on December 19, 2005, at 12:15:29
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Declan, posted by Larry Hoover on December 19, 2005, at 8:55:01
Larry, I've read your posts about the right dose of opiate to give some pain relief but not euphoria/whatever and am interested that what seems (from one point of view!) like a lot of opiate (80mg Oxycodone) gives that and no more. But that's opiates I guess.
When I said that about this being the substance use board I was talking about myself (of course), justifying my reserve about psych drugs. It's hard to find the right words to convey meaning here and get the nuances right.
With cannabis I think eating it is the best, as long as you judge it right. Less of a shock to the system.
I wish you the best anyway
Declan
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 20, 2005, at 1:02:16
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Larry Hoover, posted by Declan on December 19, 2005, at 12:15:29
> Larry, I've read your posts about the right dose of opiate to give some pain relief but not euphoria/whatever and am interested that what seems (from one point of view!) like a lot of opiate (80mg Oxycodone) gives that and no more. But that's opiates I guess.
My pain increased substantially in two separate waves. There may be some tolerance, but my dose is pretty stable, between these two triggering events. I take it p.r.n., despite the size of the total dose.
> When I said that about this being the substance use board I was talking about myself (of course), justifying my reserve about psych drugs. It's hard to find the right words to convey meaning here and get the nuances right.
I didn't know where to post, honestly, and I actually am concerned about substance abuse. I have a history. If nothing else, it's a blunt reminder to myself.
> With cannabis I think eating it is the best, as long as you judge it right. Less of a shock to the system.Ya, smoking is not my first line process. I'm giving some serious thought to vaporizers, but good ones are a lot of money.
Eating is definitely going to be one of the experiments. The compassion club has a number of products to consider.
> I wish you the best anyway
>
> DeclanThanks, dude. I feel more proactive going ahead with this, as compared to getting narcotics prescriptions month after month. But it's going to cost me a bundle. Que sera.
Thanks for walking with me, for a bit. The company was much appreciated.
Lar
Posted by vainamoinen on December 20, 2005, at 14:11:27
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Declan, posted by Larry Hoover on December 20, 2005, at 1:02:16
I've used medical marijuana. And although your mileage may vary (see my post: Kids don't try this at home Weed+Prozac) I found that it's strong medicine. The drug strains of the plant have been bred for very high THC content. So much so that one hit was too much for me. It affected my concentration the next day at work. Also, eating it may upset your stomach. I ate a small piece of a brownie and I was dry heaving shortly thereafter. I think eating it would be the way to go though since it is more long acting, doesn't peak so quickly, and it may be easier to regulate the amount.
Plus you won't smell like a Rastafarian.
Posted by ed_uk on December 23, 2005, at 14:28:02
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Declan, posted by Larry Hoover on December 20, 2005, at 1:02:16
Hi Lar
Have you discussed Sativex with your neurologist? Would he be willing to prescribe it for you?
I don't know how the licensing system works in Canada. In the UK, once a drug is licensed, doctors can prescribe it for any reason that they want to eg. they could prescribe OxyContin for diarrhea if they wanted to...... but they wouldn't LOL!
Ed
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 23, 2005, at 18:19:11
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Larry Hoover, posted by ed_uk on December 23, 2005, at 14:28:02
> Hi Lar
>
> Have you discussed Sativex with your neurologist? Would he be willing to prescribe it for you?
>
> I don't know how the licensing system works in Canada. In the UK, once a drug is licensed, doctors can prescribe it for any reason that they want to eg. they could prescribe OxyContin for diarrhea if they wanted to...... but they wouldn't LOL!
>
> EdLyrica is horrors on the memory.
If I recall correctly, it has a special license, and is only for use in MS, and only if traditional treatments have failed. Special paperwork, blah blah.
I've been researching alternative sourcing.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 2, 2006, at 23:22:43
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » ed_uk, posted by Larry Hoover on December 23, 2005, at 18:19:11
> I've been researching alternative sourcing.
>
> LarOkay, this is why I put this up on this board in the first place. Other than looking for information, I mean. Accessing this medicine requires a return to associating with people and practises I have left behind some years ago. I'm concerned about how I might react.
In what seems like a prior existence, I smoked three lifetime's worth of mj. Mine, yours, and the guy across the street's.
It works for my pain. Nothing the doctors gave me comes close, except for the bastard fruit of that other plant, Papaver somniferum, the opium poppy. I found that they are complimentary with respect to the pain. However, unlike my careful management with the opiates, which avoids psychoactive effects (I don't get high), I seriously doubt I'll find a way to administer the mj without catching the buzz therefrom. And I don't know where that will take me.
Sometime this week, when the mail comes in, I expect to be doing some dose titrations. I wish me luck.
Lar
Posted by Declan on January 3, 2006, at 1:19:50
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Larry Hoover, posted by Larry Hoover on January 2, 2006, at 23:22:43
Yeah Hi, happy new year. Can I just put in a word for eating it carefully? Easier to titrate, lower doses last longer, less assault on the system; but I guess you're familiar with all that.
Declan
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 3, 2006, at 10:58:25
In reply to Re: Anybody used medical marijuana? » Larry Hoover, posted by Declan on January 3, 2006, at 1:19:50
> Yeah Hi, happy new year. Can I just put in a word for eating it carefully? Easier to titrate, lower doses last longer, less assault on the system; but I guess you're familiar with all that.
> DeclanI'm not feeling very objective. Thanks for reminding me.
I still have papers. After 8 years, 5 months, and 27 days clean.
But I'm a pack rat type.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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