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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by laima on October 29, 2006, at 14:27:37
So I was around for a (pretty theoretical) vices debate last night- quite interesting, but no resolution. If an otherwise healthy and fit 20 or 30-something was going to pick just one vice, choices being moderate use of tobacco cigarrettes (for sake of debate, and since we knew of no "guidelines" such as those which exist for safe alcohol consumption) we defined that as 2 or so a day, several times per week, no more) vs moderate alcohol (for this debate, we defined it as beer and wine, several nights a week)- what's the worst or "best" choice? IE, which is the more damaging and dangerous habit? (Without getting bogged into details- obviously, neither is good for you, and we all know it.) The debate came up and got rolling when someone announced he was gonna "get healthy", one vice at a time, which to kick first.
And- but what if the alcohol turned heavy- what's worse- heavy alcohol usage, or moderate smoking of tobacco cigarrettes?
And for that matter- anyone know the scoop as to whether or not those American Spirit "organic" cigarrettes are an ad "smokescreen", (excuse the pun) or if they really are safer?
Do cigarrettes affect the liver?
Which ages you faster?
And if anyone knows about evaluating the choice of these particular vices, or answers to any of the questions above, what's your source? (BTW, anybody can alter wikipedia- so I don't know whether to believe anything they say.)
Thanks!
Laima
Posted by Jost on October 29, 2006, at 22:25:10
In reply to vices debate: cigarrettes VS alcohol, posted by laima on October 29, 2006, at 14:27:37
Wikipedia is generally pretty reliable, in the sciences at least. A recent study to that effect, by scientists. Although there are inaccuracies-- but not much more than Encyclopedia Brittanica--
On moderate use-- not sure I consider your examples as reaching moderate use-- and even less sure that either of them, as defined, could be considered a real vice.
Vice to me involves something a little more immoderate than 2 cigarettes several times a week.
Eight or nine caramel-mocha frappaccinos (sp?) a day might qualify. Gigantes, of course.
Sorry not to be more help-- Im not sure you can contrast alcoholism with a two-pack a day cigarette habit-- without going into the exact pros and cons-- it depends on what follows-- how long you do it-- how each affects you--
Short-term, probably smoking is less bad-- long-term-- well, the odds are you could end up with some terrible problems-- although even short term smoking, two packs a day, can involve later consequences-- or you could be lucky. Also might depend on how much you drink, and how much it affects other parts of your life.
Jost
Posted by laima on October 29, 2006, at 22:50:03
In reply to Re: vices debate: cigarrettes VS alcohol, posted by Jost on October 29, 2006, at 22:25:10
Like I said, the discussion was pretty theoretical and based on what most people seemed to be up to in real life. And initiated by a guy who wanted to know which was his worse problem. Maybe this is too abstract to discuss here successfully. And so many variables that a comparrison of the two "vices" seems tough.
It's true- I know Wikipedia is usually accurate- it's just that I hear anyone at all can edit the entries, which is scary.
But I just went to the most amazing author talk tonight, which put my thinking about the notion of "vices" into a bit of a blender anyway. Marjane Satrapi. But my thoughts and digestion of her remarks haven't gelled yet, so they're hard to discuss. But they had to do with live a little, in moderation. Savour, don't gulp. She grew up in Iran as the revolution broke out, things got very oppressive, and now lives in Paris. Her new book is basically about what makes a life worth living, and as an aside, she remarked that if she wants to smoke a little because that is something she absolutely loves, she will. It was..a very un-American way of thinking, and she talked a little about how striking it is to her how everyone here denies themselves foods, drinks, smokes, etc. for sake of our health- but we all die anyway. She wasn't talking about overdoing anything or gluttony, either. Very interesting-and yes-very easy to misconstrue.
> Wikipedia is generally pretty reliable, in the sciences at least. A recent study to that effect, by scientists. Although there are inaccuracies-- but not much more than Encyclopedia Brittanica--
>
> On moderate use-- not sure I consider your examples as reaching moderate use-- and even less sure that either of them, as defined, could be considered a real vice.
>
> Vice to me involves something a little more immoderate than 2 cigarettes several times a week.
>
> Eight or nine caramel-mocha frappaccinos (sp?) a day might qualify. Gigantes, of course.
>
> Sorry not to be more help-- Im not sure you can contrast alcoholism with a two-pack a day cigarette habit-- without going into the exact pros and cons-- it depends on what follows-- how long you do it-- how each affects you--
>
> Short-term, probably smoking is less bad-- long-term-- well, the odds are you could end up with some terrible problems-- although even short term smoking, two packs a day, can involve later consequences-- or you could be lucky. Also might depend on how much you drink, and how much it affects other parts of your life.
>
> Jost
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 30, 2006, at 3:17:24
In reply to Re: vices debate: cigarrettes VS alcohol » Jost, posted by laima on October 29, 2006, at 22:50:03
Hey!
This is something I have given coniderable thought to.
I'm actually in line with that woman who you saw talk. Yes, I live in Europe, so that might colour my opinions!
I honestly don't see the major harm in say, smoking 2 cigarettes 3 times a week. In fact, I used to do that, but with maybe one cigarette. I personally think that the level of pollutants you'll receive from the atmosphere alone, if you live in a city like New York or London, would equal one or two cigarettes a day at least. And the same thing with drink. In fact, isn't moderate red wine drinking supposed to be encouraged?
Look at the Mediterranean countries. They have some of the longest life expectancies around -- they regularly drink, smoke, drink expressos, etc. But, its all in moderation, and they are generally lean, exercise in their daily habits, and eat plenty of fruit and vegatables.
Plus, there's lots of things which are even more important to your health, such as exercise and and eating lots of fruit and vegetables. As in, not many people make a fuss over the fact that eating fruit and vegeatables are a very good way of warding off cancer for example...but its all skewed to 'don't smoke, don't drink'.
I mean, you hear about how smoking is bad for you, and you're treated like a social leper, but being morbidly obese is probably assocaited with just as many negative health consequences as smoking or drinking in moderation are, but there's less emphasis on that. Or if you eat alot of chargrilled red meat - thats supposed to be extremely carciogenic.
Cancers related to smoking are easy to prove - however, cancers related to other factors (such a s the chargrilled red meat thing) aren't. So they get less emphasis. And how can eating something like red meat be unhealthy right? Its hard to change people's opinions.
Anyway, there are studies that show that a 'healthy brace of toxicity' is what the body needs, to help keep the systems sharp that do process waste.
Moderation is key.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by laima on October 30, 2006, at 8:10:05
In reply to Re: vices debate: cigarrettes VS alcohol, posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 30, 2006, at 3:17:24
Yes, moderation of course! The French are particularly famous for that, with all of their butter and cream and wine and croissants, aren't they?
But then, I wonder, what if the person was smoking heavier, like half pack a day, and drinking more than he claimed- he's quite the partier-and he wants to decide which is "worse"- then what do people think is worse? (Per observable evidence, I think he was using more of each than he reported)- and let me tell you, the debate got "testy" when people wondered about heavier use of either, ie- in that case, what would be worse? And there was one person who proudly described quitting drinking easily, cold- but then it came out that it was by smoking tons of cigarrettes instead. They distracted her from thinking about drinking and "gave her something to do" during social events. Did she do herself any favor? She thinks she will be able to "just quit" cigarettes later, too- and I thought- oh- with another substitute? See what I mean? She figured that since she stuck to the "organic cigarrettes" she wasn't too bad off- but she was up to about half pack or more per day! So I don't know if this is an answerable question, or too abstract, but it's got me awfully curious now.Ps- is smoking as "demonized" in England and Finland as it is here in the US- or is it an American phenomena? I wonder if there is a mythology building up, OVER-emphasizing smoking's very real dangers...I mean, binge drinking and heavy drinking is bad, very bad- but it doesn't seem to be treated as the same sort of social faux-pas or moral failing in most circles as is smoking cigarrettes. It's become illegal to smoke in BARS in some cities, such as New York, and smoking is almost getting to be looked at as a quasi-moral failing as opposed to a unhealthy habit. Not just due to second hand smoke- just the fact that someone would smoke at all. Even that author I saw last night joked that when she lit up in the street in the US, people glared at her and she felt judged, as if she was a criminal, and that really perterbed and bewildered her. I also can't help but note that yes, there is a second-hand smoke issue- but some drunks get loud and even violent, hence bothering others, too. I guess this is a "culture" question that I am asking here. (Maybe it's kind of abstract and without a real answer.) (?)
What do you think?
Thanks!
> Hey!
>
> This is something I have given coniderable thought to.
>
> I'm actually in line with that woman who you saw talk. Yes, I live in Europe, so that might colour my opinions!
>
> I honestly don't see the major harm in say, smoking 2 cigarettes 3 times a week. In fact, I used to do that, but with maybe one cigarette. I personally think that the level of pollutants you'll receive from the atmosphere alone, if you live in a city like New York or London, would equal one or two cigarettes a day at least. And the same thing with drink. In fact, isn't moderate red wine drinking supposed to be encouraged?
>
> Look at the Mediterranean countries. They have some of the longest life expectancies around -- they regularly drink, smoke, drink expressos, etc. But, its all in moderation, and they are generally lean, exercise in their daily habits, and eat plenty of fruit and vegatables.
>
> Plus, there's lots of things which are even more important to your health, such as exercise and and eating lots of fruit and vegetables. As in, not many people make a fuss over the fact that eating fruit and vegeatables are a very good way of warding off cancer for example...but its all skewed to 'don't smoke, don't drink'.
>
> I mean, you hear about how smoking is bad for you, and you're treated like a social leper, but being morbidly obese is probably assocaited with just as many negative health consequences as smoking or drinking in moderation are, but there's less emphasis on that. Or if you eat alot of chargrilled red meat - thats supposed to be extremely carciogenic.
>
> Cancers related to smoking are easy to prove - however, cancers related to other factors (such a s the chargrilled red meat thing) aren't. So they get less emphasis. And how can eating something like red meat be unhealthy right? Its hard to change people's opinions.
>
> Anyway, there are studies that show that a 'healthy brace of toxicity' is what the body needs, to help keep the systems sharp that do process waste.
>
> Moderation is key.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Meri
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 31, 2006, at 8:06:58
In reply to Re: vices debate: cigarrettes VS alcohol » Meri-Tuuli, posted by laima on October 30, 2006, at 8:10:05
Hey!
Interesting discussion, eh?
> which is "worse"- then what do people think is worse?
Well, I don't know. I suspect that smoking is probably worse, if you had to choose between the two. But it depends on your genes I think too - I *think* they have discovered like a lung cancer gene or something, so that if you happen to smoke and have this gene, your chances of getting cancer shoot up.... but if you don't have this gene, I don't know what your overall risk would be.
Yeah, I would think that smoking alot is worse, although this is entirely my opinion, and I don't really have any evidence to back it up! But then, it was like I saying before, if you smoke lots, but happen to be healthy in every other way (are lean, eat tons of fruit and vegetables, exercise etc) then I imagine that smoking alot isn't going to be that damaging to you than if you smoked alot, were obese, ate juck food and didn't exercise. You see the difference?
As for binge drinking, (or just drinking alot) well, I dunno. I certainly think drinking alot is better than smoking alot. I've noticed that in the US there is definately a big 'anti-drinking' thing going on. For instance, I don't know *anybody* here in Europe who is totally dry. Everyone drinks here. And the attidude is pretty liberal toward drinking too. But I've noticed that in America, drink is often frowned upon quite heavily by some people. To be honest, its seen as bit weird if you don't drink, that is definately demonised!! You're assumed to be a recovered alcoholic, or a overly religious or something. I guess in the UK some muslims don't drink, but all the muslims I know, drink and the one who I briefly met who didn't drink, smoked alot of weed. Sooo....drinking is definately more acceptable in Europe I would say.
> Ps- is smoking as "demonized" in England and Finland as it is here in the US-Hmmm, probably no it isn't. Yes, in some countries they've banned smoking in indoor places, Ireland being one such country.
Nah, I don't think its as bad as you describe. I know lots of people who smoke (my father, my father-in-law, my brother, my brother-in-law x2 ...er, some of my friends) so its less demonised. Although it is getting more socially unacceptable I would say, but probably not as much as you describe in the US!!!
But between the two, smoking is probably demonised more than drinking, but then, these things are as heavily demonised here as they are in the US.
But I know what you mean about the smoking thing.
M
Posted by Phillipa on November 11, 2006, at 21:06:06
In reply to Re: vices debate: cigarrettes VS alcohol » laima, posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 31, 2006, at 8:06:58
Personally not being a smoker. I hate the smoke getting into my hair and clothing as it stinks. And maked my eyes water. So no to smoking.
Alchohol I felt great when I drank beer or wine. And definitely it's a no no in the US by all psych docs. They say you'll stop breathing if you drink and take benzos. Well I'm still alive and did it til l0 years ago and was much happier. Love Phillipa ps maybe with rising drug costs and lawsuits they will return to alchohol. When's the last time you heard of a lawsuit against corona ? Love Phillipa
Posted by WhyandHow on November 17, 2006, at 22:26:27
In reply to vices debate: cigarrettes VS alcohol, posted by laima on October 29, 2006, at 14:27:37
cigerettes kill more people than any other drug on earth. They are also more addictive than heroin! If you can really smoke in such moderation, you must not be addicted yet as I have been for 20 years so STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THEM! My father died of a heart attack at 53 from smoking. My mother died of lung cancer from second hand smoke at 62. What do you find so enjoyable about ciggerettes? What you should do is see the movie called "The Insider" about how the tobaco companies purposely maniplated cigerettes to hook people and almost had CBS shut down in the 80's to protect their agenda.
Alcohol in moderation is not that bad unless you are an alcoholic like me. Anyone can become such with regular use. Some are more prone than others. Alcohol is far more dangerous than smoking pot to our society.
Posted by erik98225 on November 22, 2006, at 1:29:13
In reply to vices debate: cigarrettes VS alcohol, posted by laima on October 29, 2006, at 14:27:37
> So I was around for a (pretty theoretical) vices debate last night- quite interesting, but no resolution. If an otherwise healthy and fit 20 or 30-something was going to pick just one vice, choices being moderate use of tobacco cigarrettes (for sake of debate, and since we knew of no "guidelines" such as those which exist for safe alcohol consumption) we defined that as 2 or so a day, several times per week, no more)
Who in the world smokes "2 or so" cigarettes a day? There's a reason there are 20 in a pack.
Erik
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 24, 2006, at 16:31:34
In reply to Re: vices debate: cigarrettes VS alcohol, posted by erik98225 on November 22, 2006, at 1:29:13
i go through phases of smoking just one a day. I find it goes well with my morning coffee. Then thats it for me, I feel no craving to have another cigarette or coffee later in the day. I don't find cigarettes addicitive nor alcohol. Perhaps I just don't have one of those addictive personalities or whatever. Although I am addicted to babble and the internet, does that count?
M
Posted by Phillipa on November 24, 2006, at 20:26:09
In reply to me... » erik98225, posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 24, 2006, at 16:31:34
Most definitely!!!!!!!Love Phillipa
Posted by bulletproofair on January 6, 2007, at 0:31:06
In reply to me... » erik98225, posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 24, 2006, at 16:31:34
> i go through phases of smoking just one a day. I find it goes well with my morning coffee. Then thats it for me, I feel no craving to have another cigarette or coffee later in the day. I don't find cigarettes addicitive nor alcohol. Perhaps I just don't have one of those addictive personalities or whatever. Although I am addicted to babble and the internet, does that count?
>
> M
>
>I totally understand how a person can smoke only 1 a day!! Its called SELF CONTROL!! And i commend you for it!! The thing is, if you started smoking a little more...drinking a little more, then you'd find yourself smoking/drinking when you didn't plan it. That is the case with me. Right now I'm downing a Honey Brown Lager...didn't plan on it tonight, but its that damn little voice in my head that says i'll feel a little better. And guess what! I'm gonna go out for a cigarette after this post.
IN my opinion, Cigs. VS Brews. It all depends on the amounts smoked/consumed per day.
If i were to avoid one and not the other, I'd avoid SMOKING CIGARETTES, IT IS WORSE FOR YOU. There are many actual poisons in cigs and it has proven to cause so many different kinds of cancer and each person is different, and differently susceptable to acquiring cancer. I could smoke for 3 years and get cancer, where as you could smoke for 40 years and come out perfectly fine with some minor lung damage. Its all about the individual's genetic makeup.BUT YEA, AVOID CIGS. they're worse than alcohol. Plus, they don't give you that nice little buzz that some people seek from recreational money-wasters...
Posted by leo33 on January 13, 2007, at 22:34:41
In reply to Re: me..., posted by bulletproofair on January 6, 2007, at 0:31:06
Well here in the US, it is definately an alcoholic society, George Washington was the biggest distiller of liquor in the US when he was president. I have had the debate of alcohol vs. marijuana vs. other drugs with many people.
Alcohol is the number 1 gateway drug and effects your body physically more than most other drugs. There are so many murders and violence as a result of alcohol. I have lived with and known alcoholics and I can tell you the reason for al-anon.
I just had a debate with a person about it and they said other drugs effect you psychologically and alcohol doesn't. I laughed and said u can die of alcohol poisoning which of course enters your blood which flows through your brain, ever here of beer balls. This was just before he ran through a red light and side swiped a fire hydrant.
I also questioned why alcohol was legal and other drugs were not and the standard answer I get is that they tried that and prohibition did not work. I reply did the drug war work, no.
By the way I do have a nicotine addiction and am trying to stop with not much success but would like too. Cigarettes are bad as well and are pretty well regulated here in the US, I wish i could quit!!! And sorry I ever started. But at least you don't get beligerent or suffer second hand violence from them. Car fumes are much worse than second hand smoke. Less than a pack a day right now.
I am still amazed they allow alcohol advertising in the US, it should be banned like everything else. Its like having commercials promoting heroin or marijuana or cigarettes, totally hypocritical.
But people who drink seem to make more money than people who smoke, i surmise this is from the aggressiveness it can bring you, especially since the business world is warfare anyway.
Well enough of my rant, i could go on.
I can't really judge anyone since I am far from perfect.
Peace, prosperity, and health to you all.Leo
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