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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by glenn on February 7, 2000, at 15:05:33
i noticed a couple of posts re cortisol and as i have over twice the "normal " max i have researched it a bit so some of you may find this interesting
norman rosental head of the nimh in his book on st johns wort maintains that it blocks up endorphin receptors , hence perhaps anhedonia
dr dharma singh khalsa in a book focusing on alzheimers says that it inhibits utilisation of blood sugar by the brain(fatigue!?)
interferes with the function of the brains neurotransmitters
kills brain cells
hmmm lovely stuff!!
the drug i am awaiting to try and get it down is anticort made by steroidgenesis inhibitors ltd,
if anyone knows how to purchase or obtain any please let me know
glenn
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on February 7, 2000, at 17:10:30
In reply to more on cortisol, posted by glenn on February 7, 2000, at 15:05:33
Hi Glenn.
> i noticed a couple of posts re cortisol and as i have over twice the "normal " max i have researched it a bit so some of you may find this interestingThe NIMH is currently preparing to study cortisol, CRH, and all of that good stuff in-house as it pertains to affective illness (personal communication).
> norman rosental head of the nimh
Norman Rosenthal is not the head of the NIMH.
He is: Senior Researcher, Section on Biological Rhythms, National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH).
> norman rosental head of the nimh in his book on st johns wort maintains that it blocks up endorphin receptors , hence perhaps anhedonia
What does Hypericum have to do with cortisol?
> dr dharma singh khalsa in a book focusing on alzheimers says that it inhibits utilisation of blood sugar by the brain(fatigue!?)
What are you trying to say? Are you putting forth a theory of some sort?
> interferes with the function of the brains neurotransmitters
> kills brain cells
> hmmm lovely stuff!!
I see that you have a personal agenda.
> the drug i am awaiting to try and get it down is anticort made by steroidgenesis inhibitors ltd,
What is anticort? Is it a receptor antagonist?
> if anyone knows how to purchase or obtain any please let me know
Have you tried ketoconazole?
- Scott
Posted by glenn on February 7, 2000, at 19:37:09
In reply to Re: more on cortisol, posted by Scott L. Schofield on February 7, 2000, at 17:10:30
why are you being such an asshole, Scott.
I was just making a point.
> Hi Glenn.
>
>
> > i noticed a couple of posts re cortisol and as i have over twice the "normal " max i have researched it a bit so some of you may find this interesting
>
> The NIMH is currently preparing to study cortisol, CRH, and all of that good stuff in-house as it pertains to affective illness (personal communication).
>
> > norman rosental head of the nimh
>
> Norman Rosenthal is not the head of the NIMH.
>
> He is: Senior Researcher, Section on Biological Rhythms, National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH).
>
> > norman rosental head of the nimh in his book on st johns wort maintains that it blocks up endorphin receptors , hence perhaps anhedonia
>
> What does Hypericum have to do with cortisol?
>
> > dr dharma singh khalsa in a book focusing on alzheimers says that it inhibits utilisation of blood sugar by the brain(fatigue!?)
>
> What are you trying to say? Are you putting forth a theory of some sort?
>
> > interferes with the function of the brains neurotransmitters
>
> > kills brain cells
>
> > hmmm lovely stuff!!
>
> I see that you have a personal agenda.
>
> > the drug i am awaiting to try and get it down is anticort made by steroidgenesis inhibitors ltd,
>
> What is anticort? Is it a receptor antagonist?
>
> > if anyone knows how to purchase or obtain any please let me know
>
> Have you tried ketoconazole?
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on February 7, 2000, at 22:35:52
In reply to Re: more on cortisol, posted by glenn on February 7, 2000, at 19:37:09
> why are you being such an asshole, Scott.
>
> I was just making a point.I know. So was I.
- Scott
Posted by andrewb on February 7, 2000, at 22:49:48
In reply to more on cortisol, posted by glenn on February 7, 2000, at 15:05:33
See my posting for 'DHEA' for another way to combat high cortisol.
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on February 7, 2000, at 23:07:58
In reply to more on cortisol, posted by glenn on February 7, 2000, at 15:05:33
> i noticed a couple of posts re cortisol and as i have over twice the "normal " max i have researched it a bit so some of you may find this interesting
>
> norman rosental head of the nimh in his book on st johns wort maintains that it blocks up endorphin receptors , hence perhaps anhedonia
>
> dr dharma singh khalsa in a book focusing on alzheimers says that it inhibits utilisation of blood sugar by the brain(fatigue!?)
>
> interferes with the function of the brains neurotransmitters
>
> kills brain cells
>
> hmmm lovely stuff!!
>
> the drug i am awaiting to try and get it down is anticort made by steroidgenesis inhibitors ltd,
> if anyone knows how to purchase or obtain any please let me know
> glenn
Oh man, am I sorry!I wasn't reading closely enough. I thought you were referring to St. John's Wort. I thought you were "out to get it". None of that stuff would have made any sense.
Sorry again.
Have you tried ketoconazole?
- Scott
Posted by Brandon on February 7, 2000, at 23:41:24
In reply to Re: more on cortisol, posted by andrewb on February 7, 2000, at 22:49:48
Glenn,
You should seriously cosnider a trial of Dilantin. Dilantin is very effective at lower levels of stress hormones cortisol especially. Dilantin is proven to create an enviroment in the brain that fosters the growth of new dendrites especially in the hippocampus. It's not for everyone and YMMV but I have recieved incredible results from it at just 100mgs. at night before bed.
Brandon
Posted by Noa on February 8, 2000, at 7:09:59
In reply to Re: more on cortisol, posted by Scott L. Schofield on February 7, 2000, at 17:10:30
Scott, I was really glad to see your apology. I was having the hardest time understanding why you were reacting so strongly to glenn's post!
I notice you can be a pretty reactive guy. What's that about? (I am asking in a friendly way, not as a challenge)
Posted by Scott L. Schofield - oops on February 8, 2000, at 10:54:36
In reply to Re: more on cortisol-Scott, posted by Noa on February 8, 2000, at 7:09:59
> Scott, I was really glad to see your apology. I was having the hardest time understanding why you were reacting so strongly to glenn's post! I notice you can be a pretty reactive guy. What's that about? (I am asking in a friendly way, not as a challenge)
That's a good question. Thanks for asking it. Coming from you, I wouldn't have taken it as an adversarial challenge anyway.
I'm not totally sure. I have an idea as to what's involved, but it's pretty complex. A great deal of my tendency to be reactive comes from having a lack of human contact for ten years. I have yet to establish some balance. When I get well, I will have to find balance once again. For now, my make up seems to be mixture of seemingly contradictory features.
I admire people like andrewb, who are not so combative and who approach situations with a head more level than my own. I consider his example and the examples set by others here to be a good opportunity to learn and grow. I know that fierceness will always be integral to my personality, but I will learn to temper it.
Posted by glenn on February 8, 2000, at 17:10:07
In reply to Re: more on cortisol-Scott, posted by Scott L. Schofield - oops on February 8, 2000, at 10:54:36
> > Scott, I was really glad to see your apology. I was having the hardest time understanding why you were reacting so strongly to glenn's post! I notice you can be a pretty reactive guy. What's that about? (I am asking in a friendly way, not as a challenge)
>
> That's a good question. Thanks for asking it. Coming from you, I wouldn't have taken it as an adversarial challenge anyway.
>
> I'm not totally sure. I have an idea as to what's involved, but it's pretty complex. A great deal of my tendency to be reactive comes from having a lack of human contact for ten years. I have yet to establish some balance. When I get well, I will have to find balance once again. For now, my make up seems to be mixture of seemingly contradictory features.
>
> I admire people like andrewb, who are not so combative and who approach situations with a head more level than my own. I consider his example and the examples set by others here to be a good opportunity to learn and grow. I know that fierceness will always be integral to my personality, but I will learn to temper it.
i appreciate the apology scott and the suggestions everyone has made,
i have to admit that anger or whatever towards others most often unreasonably has been part of my problem, i remember at work a few months ago rounding on a very nice bloke at work who was only trying to be funny, it cost me an apology too
but heck sometimes i feel so irritable and tetchy,
on a great day like last tuesday im so mellow its lovely but any attempts to repeat what seems to make a good day just dont work- tried it so many times!
i have tried dilantin but only at 10 mg and it did not seem to do a lot, also ashghawanda and lots of meditation and exercise with little result
im just working myself upto either dhea or amisulpride after having little result from karoshil the french supplement
to answer one of scotts questions perhaps you are right maybe i am trying to come up with a theory
-for myself, i find having little apparent control over this depression and anxiety so frustrating that im probably trying to exert some control in having a theory for why im like thisanyhow thankyou again for all the replies
glenn
Posted by Racer on February 8, 2000, at 17:47:44
In reply to Re: more on cortisol-Scott, posted by glenn on February 8, 2000, at 17:10:07
OK, this may sound awful, but please take it in the spirit in which it is offered:
My horse has a benign tumor on her pituitary gland which causes Cushing's Disease. This is basically a huge flood of cortisol into the bloodstream all the time. The two drugs used to treat it are both human drugs: pergolide, which is a parkinsons drug, and the ever-popular Periactin. (Off the subject: has anyone here ever heard of Periactin being used for allergies? It *is* an antihistimine, after all...)
The studies on Periactin (ciproheptidine) show mixed results. Most studies say that there is some improvement in between 35% and 85% of the participants. The studies vary widely, and no one has been able to reproduce the results of any other study. That's the bad news. The anecdotal evidence is that it really does help about half the horses put on it. That is, it helps to the point that the vets treating the horses, who don't see them every day and don't have the sentiment involved, can see an improvement.
The Pergolide is supposed to arrest and even reverse a lot of the damage done to the adrenal feedback loop that causes the overflow of cortisol.
Good luck to you, and I think (from my experience with my horse) that there is a strong link between cortisol and mood.
Posted by Bruce on February 8, 2000, at 19:28:54
In reply to How about two more things to try..., posted by Racer on February 8, 2000, at 17:47:44
I agree with the cortisol/mood link. Phosphatidylserine
is good for suppressing cortisol, at least with an
exercise-induced cortisol rise. It isn't cheap in the
relevant doses (800 mg/day taken on empty stomach 1 hour before
strenuous exercise) but my own experience confirms it works, at least
in the exercise setting. It also improves memory and may be a good augmentor
for an antidepressant.
Bruce
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on February 9, 2000, at 7:34:29
In reply to Re: more on cortisol-Scott, posted by glenn on February 8, 2000, at 17:10:07
> to answer one of scotts questions perhaps you are right maybe i am trying to come up with a theory
> -for myself, i find having little apparent control over this depression and anxiety so frustrating that im probably trying to exert some control in having a theory for why im like this
I have tried to come up with theories for the last 18 years, ever since the staff at Columbia-Presbyterian in NYC told me that there was nothing more they could do for me, and that I was just one of the unlucky 5%.
Performing research and producing theories are probably what is most responsible for my choosing to remain alive. It allows for hope.
- Scott
Posted by andrewb on February 9, 2000, at 10:48:46
In reply to And one more thing as well..., posted by Bruce on February 8, 2000, at 19:28:54
Bruce,
How does Phosphatidylserine make you feel different during exercise and during the rest of the day?
------------------------------------------------------------
Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation
of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy menThe effect of chronic administration of phosphatidylserine derived from brain cortex on the neuroendocrine responses to physical stress has
been examined in a placebo-controlled study in 9 healthy men. Phosphatidylserine 800 mg/d for 10 days significantly blunted the ACTH and
cortisol responses to physical exercise (P = 0.003 and P = 0.03, respectively), without affecting the rise in plasma GH and PRL. Physical
exercise significantly increased the plasma lactate concentration both after placebo and phosphatidylserine. The results suggest that chronic oral
administration of phosphatidylserine may counteract stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in man.Monteleone P,
Maj M, Beinat L, et al. Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation of the
hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men. Eur J Clin Pharmacol (GERMANY) 42:385-388; 1992.
Posted by Bruce on February 10, 2000, at 7:08:06
In reply to Re: Phosphatidylserine: Bruce, posted by andrewb on February 9, 2000, at 10:48:42
> Bruce,
>
> How does Phosphatidylserine make you feel different during exercise and during the rest of the day?
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation
> of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men
>
> The effect of chronic administration of phosphatidylserine derived from brain cortex on the neuroendocrine responses to physical stress has
> been examined in a placebo-controlled study in 9 healthy men. Phosphatidylserine 800 mg/d for 10 days significantly blunted the ACTH and
> cortisol responses to physical exercise (P = 0.003 and P = 0.03, respectively), without affecting the rise in plasma GH and PRL. Physical
> exercise significantly increased the plasma lactate concentration both after placebo and phosphatidylserine. The results suggest that chronic oral
> administration of phosphatidylserine may counteract stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in man.Monteleone P,
> Maj M,
Hello, Andrew! I have read your posts describing your troubles with strenuous exercise, and the inability to recover. I know *exactly* what you mean.Generally speaking, when I take PS before working out, I find two things:
1) I can work out harder and longer;
2) I do not feel the overtraining syndrome afterwards.By the overtraining syndrome I mean lethargy, inability to sleep at night, fatigue and grumpiness the next few days, etc, as usually described in the exercise literature. Note how the overtraining syndrome mimics the symptoms of depression (that is not a coincidence).
Before PS , I felt *awful* after a hard workout. My term for it was 'blasted'. It just didn't feel right. I felt old, used up. After using PS, I felt *good* after exercising, even refreshed (like the good old days before depression).
In my view, PS is a worthy adjunct to an antidepressant. I don't think it can get the job done by itself, but as an AD augmentor, it works for me. YMMV, of course. It isn't clear how much it helps in a non-exercise setting, but it may be worth a try for use on a daily basis.
I use a product from Dexter Sport Science called Powerstar Exer-Stress-PS
Try the URL
http://www.dsportscience.com/cortisol.htmlgood luck.
Bruce
Posted by Ant-Rock on February 10, 2000, at 15:55:56
In reply to Re: Phosphatidylserine: Bruce, posted by Bruce on February 10, 2000, at 7:08:06
> > Bruce,
> >
> > How does Phosphatidylserine make you feel different during exercise and during the rest of the day?
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation
> > of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men
> >
> > The effect of chronic administration of phosphatidylserine derived from brain cortex on the neuroendocrine responses to physical stress has
> > been examined in a placebo-controlled study in 9 healthy men. Phosphatidylserine 800 mg/d for 10 days significantly blunted the ACTH and
> > cortisol responses to physical exercise (P = 0.003 and P = 0.03, respectively), without affecting the rise in plasma GH and PRL. Physical
> > exercise significantly increased the plasma lactate concentration both after placebo and phosphatidylserine. The results suggest that chronic oral
> > administration of phosphatidylserine may counteract stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in man.Monteleone P,
> > Maj M,
>
>
> Hello, Andrew! I have read your posts describing your troubles with strenuous exercise, and the inability to recover. I know *exactly* what you mean.
>
> Generally speaking, when I take PS before working out, I find two things:
>
> 1) I can work out harder and longer;
> 2) I do not feel the overtraining syndrome afterwards.
>
> By the overtraining syndrome I mean lethargy, inability to sleep at night, fatigue and grumpiness the next few days, etc, as usually described in the exercise literature. Note how the overtraining syndrome mimics the symptoms of depression (that is not a coincidence).
>
> Before PS , I felt *awful* after a hard workout. My term for it was 'blasted'. It just didn't feel right. I felt old, used up. After using PS, I felt *good* after exercising, even refreshed (like the good old days before depression).
>
> In my view, PS is a worthy adjunct to an antidepressant. I don't think it can get the job done by itself, but as an AD augmentor, it works for me. YMMV, of course. It isn't clear how much it helps in a non-exercise setting, but it may be worth a try for use on a daily basis.
>
> I use a product from Dexter Sport Science called Powerstar Exer-Stress-PS
>
> Try the URL
> http://www.dsportscience.com/cortisol.html
>
> good luck.
>
> Bruce--- Does anyone know whether or not P.S., DHEA, or any other cortisol lowering supplement would be ok to use as an A.D. augmentor for an individual who has borderline "low" cortisol levels.
My levels are low, but not low enough to warrant medication according to an "endo doc".
I suffer from weakness/fatigue/anhedonia/depression.
Currently taking Reboxetine(8mg),Deprenyl(5mg) daily.
I also take long to recover from exercise, and am at the point I can't even exercise anymore. Totally wiped out after 1:00 in the afternoon.
Thanks ahead of time for any info you could provide,Ant-Rock
Posted by andrewb on February 10, 2000, at 17:14:49
In reply to Re: Phosphatidylserine: Anyone, posted by Ant-Rock on February 10, 2000, at 15:55:56
>
> --- Does anyone know whether or not P.S., DHEA, or any other cortisol lowering supplement would be ok to use as an A.D. augmentor for an individual who has borderline "low" cortisol levels.
> My levels are low, but not low enough to warrant medication according to an "endo doc".
> I suffer from weakness/fatigue/anhedonia/depression.
> Currently taking Reboxetine(8mg),Deprenyl(5mg) daily.
> I also take long to recover from exercise, and am at the point I can't even exercise anymore. Totally wiped out after 1:00 in the afternoon.
> Thanks ahead of time for any info you could provide,
>
> Ant-Rock
Firstly, thank you Bruce for the PS information. I'm going to try PS b4 exercise.Ant Rock. A cortisol lowering med may make things only worse. You could have adrenal insufficiency. Even subclinical insufficiency can cause fatigue. Do a Google search for 'adrenal insufficiency'. Licorice root, a supplement, may help you but be careful, it can act powerfully.
Posted by Bruce on February 11, 2000, at 10:10:17
In reply to Re: Phosphatidylserine: Anyone, posted by andrewb on February 10, 2000, at 17:14:49
>
> >
> > --- Does anyone know whether or not P.S., DHEA, or any other cortisol lowering supplement would be ok to use as an A.D. augmentor for an individual who has borderline "low" cortisol levels.
> > My levels are low, but not low enough to warrant medication according to an "endo doc".
> > I suffer from weakness/fatigue/anhedonia/depression.
> > Currently taking Reboxetine(8mg),Deprenyl(5mg) daily.
> > I also take long to recover from exercise, and am at the point I can't even exercise anymore. Totally wiped out after 1:00 in the afternoon.
> > Thanks ahead of time for any info you could provide,
> >
> > Ant-Rock
>
>
> Firstly, thank you Bruce for the PS information. I'm going to try PS b4 exercise.
>
> Ant Rock. A cortisol lowering med may make things only worse. You could have adrenal insufficiency. Even subclinical insufficiency can cause fatigue. Do a Google search for 'adrenal insufficiency'. Licorice root, a supplement, may help you but be careful, it can act powerfully.
I agree with andrewB. Do NOT take PS. Another herb to try is Siberian Ginseng, which is supposed to 'normalize' adrenal output (give you more if you have too little, give you less if you have too much). Note it is not 'Korean Ginseng' (aka Panax Ginseng) but Eleutherococcus. Used by Eastern Bloc athletes. Start low, go slow.Bruce
Posted by zehra suer on March 17, 2000, at 21:16:46
In reply to Re: more on cortisol-Scott, posted by glenn on February 8, 2000, at 17:10:07
A am searching cortisol related problems and diagnosis. This is my first time in your discussion board. I would like to have email adress of experts in this field. Any help? My cortisol level was found low at on test and 3 months later i had ACTH test and i was told that everything was Ok. Is it difficult to diagnosit ? Should i try again? I have the symptoms periodicly. I am totaly confused.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
zgs
Posted by AndrewB on March 18, 2000, at 7:59:53
In reply to Re: diagnosis, posted by zehra suer on March 17, 2000, at 21:16:46
> A am searching cortisol related problems and diagnosis. This is my first time in your discussion board. I would like to have email adress of experts in this field. Any help? My cortisol level was found low at on test and 3 months later i had ACTH test and i was told that everything was Ok. Is it difficult to diagnosit ? Should i try again? I have the symptoms periodicly. I am totaly confused.
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks
> zgsA 24 hour urinary test for cortisol would give you the more reliable reading.
Posted by Brad H on April 4, 2000, at 15:27:27
In reply to Re: diagnosis, posted by AndrewB on March 18, 2000, at 7:59:53
> > A am searching cortisol related problems and diagnosis. This is my first time in your discussion board. I would like to have email adress of experts in this field. Any help? My cortisol level was found low at on test and 3 months later i had ACTH test and i was told that everything was Ok. Is it difficult to diagnosit ? Should i try again? I have the symptoms periodicly. I am totaly confused.
> > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> > Thanks
> > zgs
>
> A 24 hour urinary test for cortisol would give you the more reliable reading.Have any of you tried the at home test for your cortisol level? Are they legitimate? And what prices do you pay?. Thanks......Brad
Posted by Lorraine on June 15, 2001, at 15:56:17
In reply to Re: Phosphatidylserine: Bruce, posted by andrewb on February 9, 2000, at 10:48:46
> Bruce,
>
> How does Phosphatidylserine make you feel different during exercise and during the rest of the day?
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation
> of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men
>
> The effect of chronic administration of phosphatidylserine derived from brain cortex on the neuroendocrine responses to physical stress has
> been examined in a placebo-controlled study in 9 healthy men. Phosphatidylserine 800 mg/d for 10 days significantly blunted the ACTH and
> cortisol responses to physical exercise (P = 0.003 and P = 0.03, respectively), without affecting the rise in plasma GH and PRL. Physical
> exercise significantly increased the plasma lactate concentration both after placebo and phosphatidylserine. The results suggest that chronic oral
> administration of phosphatidylserine may counteract stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in man.Monteleone P,
> Maj M, Beinat L, et al. Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation of the
> hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men. Eur J Clin Pharmacol (GERMANY) 42:385-388; 1992.I started taking PS to improve my cognitive abilities (with this depression has destroyed). After taking it a little while (maybe a week) I noticed that I no longer "skin pick" or bite my nails. I'm only taking 100 mg a day and certainly wasn't expecting this result. Skin picking is an anxiety disorder in the OCD group.
Posted by buddhi on January 14, 2004, at 15:54:32
In reply to Re: Phosphatidylserine: Bruce, AndrewB et al, posted by Lorraine on June 15, 2001, at 15:56:17
I read what you said about ps helping you with biting nails and skin picking wondering what brand of PS you use? and if it still is working??? Thanks amy
This is the end of the thread.
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Script revised: February 4, 2008
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